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Chunking is why players rarely improve ice awareness

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Old
08-30-2013, 09:35 PM
  #26
SteadyEddie
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Originally Posted by smoneil View Post
I agree, and frankly, I think that's a big part of the problem. There are people on here who will never be happy with any PMD who ISN'T Brian Leetch reincarnated. Leetch was a once in a lifetime kind of player. Del Zotto not being as good as Leetch does not mean that Del Zotto is not an excellent player to have.
The name Del Zotto should never be used in a sentence with the name Leetch.

Del Zotto's biggest problem is speed, or lack thereof. Easily our slowest skating defensemen. I know he's working with Underhill, but if she can't help, I'd rather see him moved and room made for McIlrath.

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08-30-2013, 09:46 PM
  #27
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Originally Posted by SteadyEddie View Post
The name Del Zotto should never be used in a sentence with the name Leetch.

Del Zotto's biggest problem is speed, or lack thereof. Easily our slowest skating defensemen. I know he's working with Underhill, but if she can't help, I'd rather see him moved and room made for McIlrath.
I don't think he's "easily" our slowest defenseman. Girardi is slower imo. And how does trading a LD make room for a RD?

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08-31-2013, 01:18 AM
  #28
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Some people on here need a serious reality check when it comes to Michael Del Zotto. He scored 41 points in 77 games in 11-12. He had 10 goals. He was a +20 for crying out loud. He had 10 points in 20 playoff games in that run to the semis.

Last year his numbers were only a bit off of that pace. But so were most of the team's. Still, DZ averaged just under .5 points a game. Which is very solid for a Defenseman. He more than doubled Anton Stralman's production and yet you look at the stralman thread compared to this thread and you'd think Stralman is leagues ahead of DZ.

There is no reason for MDZ to become a whipping boy around here. Is he a great offensive defenseman? Will he ever be an all-star? I don't know. It's possible that what we saw in 11-12 was a version of his ceiling.

The point here is, you cannot argue that he has been our best defenseman offensively since he got here.

Look at McDonagh's numbers. They're pretty good, but they're not as good as Del Zottos. I'm in no way suggesting McDonagh isn't a better hockey player than DZ. Not at all. But to call him bad, to call him trade bait. I think that's a bit unfair.

Del Zotto's defensive game got better every year under Torts. Is he perfect? No. But he's not Wade Redden. He's not Tom Poti. Realistically, he's James Patrick. Or pretty darn close. Numbers at the same age are comparable. Was Jeep an all-star? Never. But he played 20 years in the league. And put up some good numbers in his mid-late 20s. And no, Dylan McIlrath in no way replaces MDZ. Two different skill sets.

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08-31-2013, 01:48 AM
  #29
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Originally Posted by Raspewtin View Post
article was pretty good. Though I'm pretty sure DZ's issues are in his head.
MDZ's issues are all in his head... confidence. It's crazy how confidence can change how a player looks/plays. It can be the difference between a guy who seems like he has high-level hockey sense or a guy who seems like he's struggling to keep up with the play.

I know for me at least, when I'm playing confident my game just "flows" naturally and I feel like I see the ice extremely well. If I'm in a slump where I'm second guessing everything then obviously my mind is going to be clouded and I'm not going to have that clear vision I would normally have.

Also, there is something to be said about the human brain and how some brains are just wired in an ideal way for certain activities.

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08-31-2013, 05:47 AM
  #30
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The article was not about MDZ. It was about the difference between very good athletes and elite athletes. MDZ is a very good athlete, but not elite.

The reason I used him as an example is that I believe his anticipation of the play is a tad off, unlike McD.

When MDZ first arrived he looked like a possibly great offensive D. He has turned out to be a decent one. My belief is that his most glaring weakness is seeing the big picture. Others here cite his skating speed.

Gretzky was never more than an average skater in regards to speed. Many of the best are not the fastest. The best see the ice better than the others. In their brains, the game is moving at a much slower pace, enabling them to make adjustments quicker.

Pure skating speed is the most overrated part of the game. Malhotra was the fastest skater when he was here. While he is a nice player, he is far from great.

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08-31-2013, 09:51 AM
  #31
SteadyEddie
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Originally Posted by KreidertheGlider View Post
I don't think he's "easily" our slowest defenseman. Girardi is slower imo. And how does trading a LD make room for a RD?
Of 8 defensemen listed on their NHL roster, only Girardi and Stralman play the right side.

I doubt Del Zotto beats Girardi in a foot race.

Del Zotto was given the opportunity to be our PP quarterback for four years now, and our PP has sucked since. I'm tired of waiting, and I'm tired of the excuse "he's still young." Time to turn it over to McDonagh.

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08-31-2013, 10:39 AM
  #32
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Originally Posted by chosen View Post
The article was not about MDZ. It was about the difference between very good athletes and elite athletes. MDZ is a very good athlete, but not elite.

The reason I used him as an example is that I believe his anticipation of the play is a tad off, unlike McD.

When MDZ first arrived he looked like a possibly great offensive D. He has turned out to be a decent one. My belief is that his most glaring weakness is seeing the big picture. Others here cite his skating speed.

Gretzky was never more than an average skater in regards to speed. Many of the best are not the fastest. The best see the ice better than the others. In their brains, the game is moving at a much slower pace, enabling them to make adjustments quicker.

Pure skating speed is the most overrated part of the game. Malhotra was the fastest skater when he was here. While he is a nice player, he is far from great.

A few things regarding to "chunking"; the whole theory sounds very much like mean regression theory. Meaning that a player's play, at a certain plateau, is what he brings to the table. Now in baseball, a static sport, a wide series of stats are available to measure and predict player's performance.

In hockey, a players usage, role, and utility and their respective production is what we have at our disposal to measure. (Corsi/Fenwick stat gurus can validate or invalidate the seeing eye test)

So let's take the Tyutin-Girardi pair from back in the day. They went up against teams number one units behind the Malik-Rosival pair. Girardi worked himself up from the minors to the 6 D to the 4. (Currently Girardi plays, and has played on the top pair)

It took G years to earn those minutes, and he earned them on merit.

Staal. Same story, quicker rise. He was on the 3rd pair, worked himself into a top PK, shut down role, and then earned top pair minutes.

McDonaugh, even faster rise. Started in the minors, worked himself into a second shutdown pair with Sauer, behind Staal-Girardi. Injury creates a void, Mac Truck steps up.

DZ. Comes in filling a need, and that was the power play. Fills that role, but gets beat defensively. Second year doesn't go well, focuses on D, but plays outside himself, finds time in the minors. Third year, Fourth year, consistent performance.

All of the four hit, block shots, and sacrifice the body. They all moved up the ranks, and all improved their game. There isn't a mean for them to regress to; not yet at least. It is said that defensemen take the longest to develop, and Ranger fans have seen a few good ones come through the pipeline.

The guy that is closest to plateauing is G. And if being at 25 min top pair shut down guy is chunking, then I'll take the chunker.

In line with the article, the "chunkers" that have regressed on the Rangers are Dubinsky, Boyle, and Bickel. All guys that were pushed down the line up during their time here, and the stats and usage followed accordingly.

Guys like Yandle, Karlsson, Green and Letang don't get touched, and play a go-go-go brand of hockey, the Ranger D plays physical and play black and blue hockey. So the liklihood of a 60+ point defensemen on the Rangers was unlikey. Look at Mike Green under Dale Hunter, did he pile up the points?

Maybe all this changes with AV, but I think the system, and how the guys play keep them from being elite offensively. Besides, the team has to score to pad the stats too.

As far as DZ is concerned, the head and the hands are there, but not the legs. But hey Ray Bourque didn't have the legs either, to make up for it, he never went past the top of the circles (Leetch did because he could), and it worked out ok for Bourque.

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08-31-2013, 11:45 AM
  #33
Raspewtin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SteadyEddie View Post
Of 8 defensemen listed on their NHL roster, only Girardi and Stralman play the right side.

I doubt Del Zotto beats Girardi in a foot race.

Del Zotto was given the opportunity to be our PP quarterback for four years now, and our PP has sucked since. I'm tired of waiting, and I'm tired of the excuse "he's still young." Time to turn it over to McDonagh.
ha what a joke. you're tired of waiting for a 23 year old defenseman to come around and be an elite PPQB? Only a handful of defensemen are REGULARS in the NHL at that age. Girardi is slower than Del Zotto, by the way. And our PP was just lightning the lamp without Del Zotto right? Jeez.

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08-31-2013, 12:56 PM
  #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Raspewtin View Post
ha what a joke. you're tired of waiting for a 23 year old defenseman to come around and be an elite PPQB? Only a handful of defensemen are REGULARS in the NHL at that age. Girardi is slower than Del Zotto, by the way. And our PP was just lightning the lamp without Del Zotto right? Jeez.
No need to acidity here, man.

While I agree that the PP didn't do much without him, DZ was a liability at the point sometimes as well. Shooting wide a lot really made people sour on him as well.

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08-31-2013, 01:11 PM
  #35
stan the caddy
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MDZ has gotten a lot better defensively. He just might not be as offensively gifted as everyone thought.

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09-01-2013, 12:09 PM
  #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SteadyEddie View Post
Of 8 defensemen listed on their NHL roster, only Girardi and Stralman play the right side.

I doubt Del Zotto beats Girardi in a foot race.

Del Zotto was given the opportunity to be our PP quarterback for four years now, and our PP has sucked since. I'm tired of waiting, and I'm tired of the excuse "he's still young." Time to turn it over to McDonagh.
The answer to the PP every year under Torts was just add different players and it never worked.

"Oh, with MDZ he can quarterback it from a lazy-boy." or

"Look, add Brad Richards and the PP will take off." or

"A PP with Richards, Nash and Gaborik! Forget about it!"

The point is that no matter who they added to the PP it was a dumpster fire throughout Tortorella's time here, and I was even a Torts defender, but his PPs were a disgrace. Lets see how he does there with a new scheme before we label him (or anyone else) terrible at it.

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09-01-2013, 12:30 PM
  #37
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This fanbase has been dying for a 60-point defenseman for so long that every time the Rangers draft a defenseman with a modicum of offensive talent, expectations balloon and the fans are inevitably dissappointed. It happened with Staal, and it's starting to happen with Del Zotto.

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09-01-2013, 02:30 PM
  #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SteadyEddie View Post
The name Del Zotto should never be used in a sentence with the name Leetch.

Del Zotto's biggest problem is speed, or lack thereof. Easily our slowest skating defensemen. I know he's working with Underhill, but if she can't help, I'd rather see him moved and room made for McIlrath.
He's also a stupid hockey player. His iq is comical.

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Old
09-01-2013, 08:24 PM
  #39
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I think he's stupid but he has hockey IQ.

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