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What Jokerit joing the KHL means for Sweden.

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Old
08-30-2013, 08:38 AM
  #176
hz
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vorky View Post
bold is not true. I can name you guys who would play NHL if no KHL. Would be nice, if you made a research before writing.
Ok name one none-russian in KHL that would make the NHL?

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08-30-2013, 09:11 AM
  #177
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I have an impression that it is pointless to discuss about pre-season games. If you want serious comparison of leagues, you need something like that.

If we want to talk about euro competitions, we need to talk about (at least):
1) politics/diplomacy
2) economy
3) sport

1) Try to persuade me that ET has more power within euro/world hockey than KHL. I would welcome your arguments.

I remember pre-Barcelona summit era and the summit as well. Idea of
Champions League had a support of euro clubs. KHL had another vision. Now, after a few years, Jokerit Helsinki (big supporter of euro competition for decade) moving to KHL. Now, after a few years, Rene Fasel talking: "I will not be against of KHL´s expansion to Europe" He said this before Jokerit announced joining KHL.

2) Is ET more attractive for sponsors? Who is a sponsor of ET? I found only Actavis, #1291 in Forbes ranking.

Lets look at KHL

PepsiCo, #88 in Forbes ranking
MegaFon, #696
Chevrolet as brand of General Motors, #70
BP, #18
Nikon, #862


I am not talking about russian oil/gas companies which are among the biggest world companies. Sure, Europe, including Sweden, pays them... so we can say that Europe supports KHL.

3) If you have more money, you can afford better players. Just look at transfers SMLiiga-KHL for last 2-3 offseasons for evidence.

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08-30-2013, 09:18 AM
  #178
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hz View Post
Ok name one none-russian in KHL that would make the NHL?
Leo Komarov and Jori Lehterä would probably be in in the NHL if KHL wasn't an option. Though Komarov has intensions of going back and Lehterä too intends to go there eventually, so they might not be on this discussion about a year or two later from now. I could imagine they'd be playing in Switzerland or Sweden as well though if KHL and NHL weren't available.

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08-30-2013, 09:29 AM
  #179
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Originally Posted by vorky View Post
I have an impression that it is pointless to discuss about pre-season games. If you want serious comparison of leagues, you need something like that.

If we want to talk about euro competitions, we need to talk about (at least):
1) politics/diplomacy
2) economy
3) sport

1) Try to persuade me that ET has more power within euro/world hockey than KHL. I would welcome your arguments.

I remember pre-Barcelona summit era and the summit as well. Idea of
Champions League had a support of euro clubs. KHL had another vision. Now, after a few years, Jokerit Helsinki (big supporter of euro competition for decade) moving to KHL. Now, after a few years, Rene Fasel talking: "I will not be against of KHL´s expansion to Europe" He said this before Jokerit announced joining KHL.

2) Is ET more attractive for sponsors? Who is a sponsor of ET? I found only Actavis, #1291 in Forbes ranking.

Lets look at KHL

PepsiCo, #88 in Forbes ranking
MegaFon, #696
Chevrolet as brand of General Motors, #70
BP, #18
Nikon, #862


I am not talking about russian oil/gas companies which are among the biggest world companies. Sure, Europe, including Sweden, pays them... so we can say that Europe supports KHL.

3) If you have more money, you can afford better players. Just look at transfers SMLiiga-KHL for last 2-3 offseasons for evidence.

Yeah, as usually your only argument is money. It doesn't matter how much money you have the only NHL-calibre player are russians. The KHL has poor attendance so is only a matter of wait until the sponsors stop throwing money in the drain.

But let's leave it hear, next year we will finally see top Euro clubs facing top KHL-clubs in a serious competition not set during pre-season. Which shows even KHL teams are pro ET. There is no point in debating how good the leagues are when we will see next season. If the KHL-teams blowout the other teams i will stand corrected. But seeing as NHL-clubs sometimes losing to euro clubs i have a hard time seeing that happen.

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08-30-2013, 11:14 AM
  #180
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It would be great if you gave us an source for your following statement

Quote:
The KHL has poor attendance so is only a matter of wait until the sponsors stop throwing money in the drain.
source IIHF, avg attendance

2008/09
SHL - 6260, no.1 in Europe
KHL - 5097, no.4

2009/10
SHL - 6190, no.1
KHL - 5474, no.4

2010/11
SHL - 6160, no.2
KHL - 5785, no.3

2011/12
SHL - 6385, no.1
KHL - 5891, no.4

2012/13
SHL - 5117, no.4
KHL - 6106, no.3

As you can see, fans interest in SHL is dropping. On the other hand, KHL´s avg attendance is rising. You can find informations about avg attendance of SML, CZ, DEL or NLA, only NLA is growing. You can argue with big Djurgaarden playing Allsvenskan, but I can talk about crappy arena of Vityaz as well. This is a problem of particular league, if the league allows such clubs in/outside of league. Lets talk about new arenas being in progress, IIRC there is going to be 10 or 11 new arenas in KHL, capacity over 12-15 000. How many in SHL?

source IIHF, number of club in top 20 (avg attendance)

2008/09
SHL - 4
KHL - 6

2009/10
SHL - 3
KHL - 6

2010/11
SHL - 2
KHL - 8

2011/12
SHL - 3
KHL - 6
(+ Amur as 21th with 100%, Loko as 11th playing VHL because of air tragedy)

2012/13
SHL - 1
KHL - 8
(+ Amur as 21th with 100%, Medvescak as 14th and Jokerit as 8th - both joining KHL and attendance will NOT drop)

Quote:
sponsors stop throwing money in the drain.
Give me an evidence. According to my knowledge, KHL keeps its sponsors and aquiring new every offseason. PepsiCo joined this week. Maybe we will see another new sponsors when league starts?? Lets wait.

Quote:
But let's leave it hear, next year we will finally see top Euro clubs facing top KHL-clubs in a serious competition not set during pre-season. Which shows even KHL teams are pro ET. There is no point in debating how good the leagues are when we will see next season. If the KHL-teams blowout the other teams i will stand corrected. But seeing as NHL-clubs sometimes losing to euro clubs i have a hard time seeing that happen.
If you are talking about "upgrade of ET", as I call it, I would not be so optimistic if I were you. We have no idea, at least me, what is KHL planning with ET... Most realistic scenario is merging ET with KHL - the same model as WHA and NHL.

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08-30-2013, 12:45 PM
  #181
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Your're just rehashing the same arguments over and over again. There aren't any 15,000 seat arenas being built in Sweden because we don't have the population for it, how can you not understand that? There are only a handful of cities than can fill 8,000 seats, barely. And the dip in attendance two seasons ago can be explained with two words : Frölunda and Djurgården. Doesn't it strike you as odd that SHL would go from 6385 and 1st place to 5117 at number 4 in just one season? That's what we call an abberation.


Last edited by Guerzy: 08-30-2013 at 01:04 PM. Reason: Stay on-topic.
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08-30-2013, 12:59 PM
  #182
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Finland doesn't even have one arena with capacity of 15000. Hartwall Areena 13500 and HK-Areena in Turku 11829. The former is only full against HIFK or finals, the latter even more rarely. By that logic Finland doesn't even deserve KHL team, no money, no fans, no sponsors, no interest.

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08-30-2013, 01:03 PM
  #183
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As for ET, the plan is to eventually merge it into the Champion's league/cup. For now, it's purpose is to offer teams with more quality opponents/incentive in the pre-season and familiarize the clubs and fans with those teams.

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08-30-2013, 01:47 PM
  #184
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@svartgul

Quote:
The KHL has poor attendance so is only a matter of wait until the sponsors stop throwing money in the drain.
The statement of hz, above, indicated that attendance of KHL is poor and is going to be poor in future as well. Hz claimed: "is only a matter of wait until the sponsors stop throwing money in the drain."

I gave an evidence that KHL avg attendance has grown since season 1. I gave vague statement that there are going to be new arenas in KHL = better attendance, more fans = no reason for sponsors to "stop throwing money"

Where did I say that I dont understand "that"?? I just asked for plans in SHL, even I had a feeling there are none. You know, Sweden wants to be a HQ of ET, to create Champions League or whatever... so you need arenas at KHL´s level to be able to attract sponsors, tv deals etc. Otherwise potential BIG sponsors choose KHL instead of ET/CL whatever. Nowadays SHL has similar or better arenas than KHL, what about next 5 yrs?? We will see.

Yes, it is not only about arenas, you to understand me. My intention was not to discuss attendance but 1)politics/diplomacy, 2) economy
3) sport.. Hz used argument of attendance (#179), so I asked.

@Jussi

I have an feeling, you dislike idea of Jokerit joining KHL. That is OK, your opinion. It is complicated to discuss with you, because you have no disere for serious discussion (my opinion), which is your choice and I respect it.

You to know, joining KHL is not about who deserve it or not. It is about interest of club, Jokerit in this case. You said about Jokerit in KHL: "no money, no fans, no sponsors, no interest." I dont see any evidence here, only opinion. I can say there are money, fans, sponsors, interest. If you read discussions about Jokerit/KHL here and at finnish board, you have to know there IS interest of fans. Money are not problem of fans, dont worry, money are not problem. Yes, you dont have to believe my words now, lets wait.

Quote:
As for ET, the plan is to eventually merge it into the Champion's league/cup. For now, it's purpose is to offer teams with more quality opponents/incentive in the pre-season and familiarize the clubs and fans with those teams.
What do you think about this "champions league", I call it "upgrade of ET". How future does this CL have in your eyes?? My opinion is that best clubs of this "CL" will join KHL one day, the rest will be as no.2 competition in Europe. Of course, it wont happen immidiatelly.

If you follow russian/Gazprom/KHL foreign policy, you have to know that russians/KHL knows how to protect its interests/achieve the goals. KHL´s main interest is to be no.1 league in Europe with clubs from every relevant country, including Finland, Sweden, Germany and Switzerland. I talked many times about methods.

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08-30-2013, 06:11 PM
  #185
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vorky View Post
If you follow russian/Gazprom/KHL foreign policy, you have to know that russians/KHL knows how to protect its interests/achieve the goals. KHL´s main interest is to be no.1 league in Europe with clubs from every relevant country, including Finland, Sweden, Germany and Switzerland. I talked many times about methods.
No one is disputing that, and never has. That is not the point.

KHL is the best league in Europe. But you know there is a second best league as well, and a third best etc etc. KHL is the best league but not the only one.

Even if Berlin joins, Paris, Bern and what the heck...even if Stockholm joins there will still be other leagues in Europe besides KHL. There will be a second best league, a third best league looking to better and improving themselves.

I'm sure that KHL will include more teams from Europe. But KHL:s biggest problem, if they want to grow and be really big in countries abroad is to get that country to gather around the league. On team in Germany will not gather the germans around the KHL. One team in Switzerkand will not gather the swiss around the KHL and so on.

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08-31-2013, 03:26 AM
  #186
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I have never said that KHL has ambition to be only one league in Europe. It is obvious that domestic leagues will not disappear. Look at US and CAN, there are leagues besides NHL.

Importance of domestic leagues has dropped for last 5-10 yrs. This proces will go on with KHL´s expansion.

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08-31-2013, 04:19 AM
  #187
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vorky View Post
Importance of domestic leagues has dropped for last 5-10 yrs. This proces will go on with KHL´s expansion.
What do you mean with this. Domestic leagues are the most important thing now and in future. It keeps the interest and money in hockey nationwide to produce players in future. Hockey talent doesn´t grow on trees. There aren´t that many hockey nations so losing the player suply from those countries would hurt the whole hockey.

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08-31-2013, 04:59 AM
  #188
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I agree with you, but I meant something else.

You see domestic league as entities which develop young players. You see euro leagues, SHL/SML/DEL/NLA etc, to be feeder leagues like AHL/ECHL.

I see domestic leagues as TOP PRO leagues of Europe, where players want to spend their careers, earn money. That was reality in past. Country, which had best developing programme had the best senior league. That is not reality anymore, players have moved to KHL, only NLA keeps status quo + a few players of SHL. Look at SMLiiga and the exodus.

Yes, domestic leagues are and will be important in future. Their aim is (will be) to develop players, not to attract best senior players playing in Europe. Nothing bad with developing players, someone has to do it! On the other hand, some fans/clubs want to be top in region (Europe) at pro level. Jokerit decided to be one of top euro clubs, to play a league which attracts best euros. It does not mean that SML will disappear. It only means that Finland will have one big club and the rest will produce players for this club (and clubs of the league which Jokerit plays). Model of CAN/US, look at Toronto Maple Leafs playing NHL, but it does not mean that there is no hockey in Ontario besides Leafs.

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08-31-2013, 06:58 AM
  #189
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Jokerit didn't "decide to be a top European club", Harkimo decided he didn't want to keep on losing money anymore.

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08-31-2013, 09:01 AM
  #190
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Harkimo=Jokerit

I dont know why you try to find problems where no problems are. You have done it all the time. If I were you, I would be the happiest fan on the globe because of Jokerit/KHL.

I am waiting for your constructive reply to my post #184.

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08-31-2013, 10:54 AM
  #191
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Harkimo isn't Jokerit. Jokerit>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Harkimo. He's always been a crappy club leader (and lately his businesses haven't been going that well in non-hockey affairs either) and this move just emphasized it.

The move to KHL just kills the Jokerit I "fell in love with" over 22 years ago. Then it was a "small" club with huge fan support, players primarily own juniors, lead by a certain currently/recently failed golf player. In KHL there will be no more "true" Jokerit players, just overpaid foreign legion of mercenaries, playing in a league I have no interest of watching.

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08-31-2013, 11:13 AM
  #192
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Harkimo is (majority) owner, so he can do whatever he thinks is best for club. Owner of Thrashers decided to sell club and new owner moved to Winnipeg. Harkimo has/had the same right to do what he wanted.

Times has changed. You have to cope with it.

It is interesting that a poster, who has "no interest of watching" KHL, has been commenting KHL affairs all the time. On the other side I have no interest of watching hockey league/players in Burkina Faso, so I dont comment hockey affairs of Burkina Faso. That is me

@Jussi

I am waiting for your constructive reply to my post #184.

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08-31-2013, 11:38 AM
  #193
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Originally Posted by vorky View Post
Harkimo is (majority) owner, so he can do whatever he thinks is best for club. Owner of Thrashers decided to sell club and new owner moved to Winnipeg. Harkimo has/had the same right to do what he wanted.

Times has changed. You have to cope with it.

It is interesting that a poster, who has "no interest of watching" KHL, has been commenting KHL affairs all the time. On the other side I have no interest of watching hockey league/players in Burkina Faso, so I dont comment hockey affairs of Burkina Faso. That is me

@Jussi

I am waiting for your constructive reply to my post #184.
Lots of people don't give a **** about KHL but keep track on the hillarious threads on the KHL forum. The expansion thread gives me a good laugh each time a new post is made.

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08-31-2013, 11:38 AM
  #194
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Originally Posted by vorky View Post
The statement of hz, above, indicated that attendance of KHL is poor and is going to be poor in future as well.
Given the size of the KHL market, and their apparent ambitions, KHL attendance is poor. Not sure what it will look like in the future but some traditionally well supported clubs saw a decline in attendance last year. In all honesty reading too much into a drop in attendance over a single year is stupid, but then again that doesn't stop you from saying in others post & threads that people are losing interest in the SHL (or whatever it is being called these days) because the league saw a drop in attendance (after a record setting year) between 2011-12 to 12-13.

Quote:
Originally Posted by vorky View Post
Hz claimed: "is only a matter of wait until the sponsors stop throwing money in the drain."
This I agree with. The wealthy, powerful and well connected already involved in the KHL won't let it fail. Even if the league never turns a profit there seems to be enough Russian people, politicians and companies involved who don't have a problem with 'throwing money in the drain' to keep it going on at least the level it is on now. I guess the question is can Russians (and people with close ties to Russia) alone fulfill your dreams and make the KHL the de facto ruler of all things European hockey? If not are there enough people, politicians and companies outside of Russia who are cool with losing tens of millions on hockey?

Quote:
Originally Posted by vorky View Post
I gave an evidence that KHL avg attendance has grown since season 1. I gave vague statement that there are going to be new arenas in KHL = better attendance, more fans = no reason for sponsors to "stop throwing money"
New modern arenas = higher attendance is hardly a given. It takes more than just a shiny new arena to draw fans, especially after the novelty wears off. Riga, Kazan, Ufa*, Magnitogorsk & Omsk all play in modern arenas and all played well below capacity last year. Those clubs also saw a decline in attendance from the previous year. Perhaps these clubs lack the 'ambition and will power' (or whatever phrase you always use when describing anything that isn't the KHL) required to be in the KHL. Perhaps they should join the ET with all the other clubs and leagues that lack 'ambition and will power'.

*To be fair Ufa played to 90% capacity which is very good. Both their attendance and arena wouldn't look out of place in Sweden, Switzerland, Germany or any other European league you look your nose down at. The problem is given your hopes for the league is a flag ship club playing to 90% capacity (and by your standards suffering from lack of interest) in a 8000 seat arena good enough?

Quote:
Originally Posted by vorky View Post
Where did I say that I dont understand "that"?? I just asked for plans in SHL, even I had a feeling there are none. You know, Sweden wants to be a HQ of ET, to create Champions League or whatever... so you need arenas at KHL´s level to be able to attract sponsors, tv deals etc. Otherwise potential BIG sponsors choose KHL instead of ET/CL whatever. Nowadays SHL has similar or better arenas than KHL, what about next 5 yrs?? We will see.
This paragraph is all over place... You are saying that the SHL and ET can't attract sponsors like the KHL does because they don't have the arenas and then later on say that Sweden's arenas are currently better. How many shovels are actually in the ground for all these new 10-20 thousand seat palaces?

Not sure why it has to be a 'one or the other' situation when it comes to the KHL and ET. Isn't there specuation that the KHL will be involved in the ET as early as next season when the tournament is actually integrated into the european hockey season and stops being essentially a pre-season tournament that starts in the middle of summer? I realize at this point it is just rumour and speculation but so are most of your threads regarding the KHL's impending world domination.

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08-31-2013, 11:51 AM
  #195
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Originally Posted by vorky View Post
Importance of domestic leagues has dropped for last 5-10 yrs. This proces will go on with KHL´s expansion.
How exactly are you defining 'importance'. What metrics are you using to come to the conclusion that domestic leagues have lost 'importance' over the last decade?

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08-31-2013, 12:27 PM
  #196
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I'm still shocked someone didn't get the irony/sarcasm of my post earlier. Or actually not...

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08-31-2013, 12:32 PM
  #197
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@CoolForumNamePending

I recommend you to re-read my post, because you claimed something what I have never said or you made wrong conclusion.

Quote:
Not sure why it has to be a 'one or the other' situation when it comes to the KHL and ET. Isn't there specuation that the KHL will be involved in the ET as early as next season when the tournament is actually integrated into the european hockey season and stops being essentially a pre-season tournament that starts in the middle of summer? I realize at this point it is just rumour and speculation but so are most of your threads regarding the KHL's impending world domination.
If you read my post carefully, I said that one scenario can be to merge top ET clubs with KHL in future and to organise ET as 2nd tier competition. Maybe you wanted to reply someone else?

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08-31-2013, 12:58 PM
  #198
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@CoolForumNamePending

I recommend you to re-read my post, because you claimed something what I have never said or you made wrong conclusion.



If you read my post carefully, I said that one scenario can be to merge top ET clubs with KHL in future and to organise ET as 2nd tier competition. Maybe you wanted to reply someone else?
Well ya... If all what you are doing is just spitballin' a bunch of ideas and then throwing them against a wall I guess this idea is about as (un)likely to stick as anything else.

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08-31-2013, 01:16 PM
  #199
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One more time, lets discuss important things like 1)politics/diplomacy, 2) economy, 3) sport aspects not irrelevant things like attandance of last season or results of pre-season games. Feel free to discuss.

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08-31-2013, 01:56 PM
  #200
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One more time, lets discuss important things like 1)politics/diplomacy, 2) economy, 3) sport aspects not irrelevant things like attandance of last season or results of pre-season games. Feel free to discuss.
Haha, you told me to look at pre season games for evidence of KHL dominance, then when i showed that the results spoke for my advantedge they suddenly are irrelevant.

But if you are so sure of KHL:s dominance, why do you have to argument about it everywhere, every day? And so heavily talk down ET? ET just tries to develop hockey in Europe. KHL just want to make money and they dont care if they kill hocket at the same times, just like NHL.

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