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Will Anton Stralman emerge as the #4 defenseman this year?

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09-01-2013, 02:33 PM
  #76
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Originally Posted by Gardner McKay View Post
No kidding. The guy was terribad in Columbus though. Considering Jersey didn't have the most spectacular defense I was shocked when they didn't offer him a spot (despite how bad he was in Columbus) and I was petrified when we signed him. However, he has been such a fantastic surprise. Considering how much Torts relied on the defense and he still played to the level he did, speaks volumes about how far he has come.
It also speaks volumes about Torts and Sullivan too. He can thank them for still being in the NHL and not bagging groceries at Shop Rite

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09-01-2013, 02:36 PM
  #77
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Originally Posted by Clowe Knows Best View Post
It also speaks volumes about Torts and Sullivan too. He can thank them for still being in the NHL and not bagging groceries at Shop Rite
I think he'd at least be able to get a job at places like Foot Locker.

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09-01-2013, 02:57 PM
  #78
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Originally Posted by Clowe Knows Best View Post
It also speaks volumes about Torts and Sullivan too. He can thank them for still being in the NHL and not bagging groceries at Shop Rite
That's about the least flattering way I've ever heard the Swedish Elite League described.

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09-01-2013, 03:00 PM
  #79
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Originally Posted by smoneil View Post
"They've had." I personally would prefer to see MDZ paired with a mobile defensive rock. McI will need someone to cover for him if he goes for the big hit--I think he would work best on a shut down pairing with someone like Staal. MDZ has always played his best hockey when lined up on the left side with a partner who could skate and focused on pure defense (see--MDZ/Sauer). If McD could play the right (has he ever been tried there? I can't remember seeing it), I would love to see MDZ/McD, Staal/McI, Moore/Girardi.

As I said, if an injury hits or if a couple of guys falter, he might get a chance to prove that he can be an NHL #4 D. I just think that it is AS likely that he finishes the season as the #7 if McI makes the jump.
those are some interesting pairings there. Never thought of a McDonagh/Del Zotto pairing, but it makes sense. I wonder if a Moore/Girardi pairing would work.

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09-01-2013, 03:00 PM
  #80
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That's about the least flattering way I've ever heard the Swedish Elite League described.
Hahaha

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09-01-2013, 03:24 PM
  #81
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I don't usually like soft defensemen... Stralman got tougher in his time here. I never found myself yelling at him the way I did at Matt Gilroy or Tom Poti.

But I think playing him with Staal gives him a better chance to be the puck mover out of the back end. Pair him with MDZ and Del Zotto is going to make all the outlet passes.

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09-01-2013, 05:18 PM
  #82
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Originally Posted by smoneil View Post
"They've had." I personally would prefer to see MDZ paired with a mobile defensive rock. McI will need someone to cover for him if he goes for the big hit--I think he would work best on a shut down pairing with someone like Staal. MDZ has always played his best hockey when lined up on the left side with a partner who could skate and focused on pure defense (see--MDZ/Sauer). If McD could play the right (has he ever been tried there? I can't remember seeing it), I would love to see MDZ/McD, Staal/McI, Moore/Girardi.

You say Stralman would be fine in any system. The problem with that is that he HASN'T been fine in any system. He's been awful in two systems, he couldn't even make the team in a 3rd system, and he was a great bottom pairing guy in Torts' system. None of those teams, including the Rangers, have ever tried to make him into an "anchor you can build a defense around." Not sure where you are getting that. My point is that people keep claiming he is this team's #4. He hasn't been that in his time here, and he's been far worse than that in his other NHL stops.

As I said, if an injury hits or if a couple of guys falter, he might get a chance to prove that he can be an NHL #4 D. I just think that it is AS likely that he finishes the season as the #7 if McI makes the jump.
Ok, I feel like we're watching a different team, so I just agree to disagree. I already see him as the #4. Feel free to rub it in my face when Del Zotto-McIlrath are Leetch-Beuk-on-welfare or whatever they're supposed to be, and Stralman is sitting out.

Here's a scenario: Del Zotto is traded for a LW to fill the hole which does exist, and Stralman stays right where he is.


Last edited by aufheben: 09-01-2013 at 05:24 PM.
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09-01-2013, 10:29 PM
  #83
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Originally Posted by aufheben View Post
Ok, I feel like we're watching a different team, so I just agree to disagree. I already see him as the #4. Feel free to rub it in my face when Del Zotto-McIlrath are Leetch-Beuk-on-welfare or whatever they're supposed to be, and Stralman is sitting out.
We're clearly watching different teams. I'm watching the one where Del Zotto was the #4 (and often higher) D on this team for the last two years. Every single stat corroborates what my two eyes are telling me. I will not agree to disagree, because your position is based on absolutely nothing. Del Zotto has had more points, more PP production, more ES minutes, more PP minutes, more PK minutes and tougher match ups. There is literally nothing at all to support your idea that Stralman is anything more than a #5/6 defenseman.


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Here's a scenario: Del Zotto is traded for a LW to fill the hole which does exist, and Stralman stays right where he is.
Who out of the following will be sitting or demoted to bottom 6 after you acquire said LW? Stepan? Callahan? Nash? Richards? Brassard? Hagelin? Kreider? MZA? That's 8 guys who will likely, at least at some points during the season, get top 6 minutes. That's not even taking guys like Hrivik or Kristo into account.

Hags Stepan Nash
Richards Brassard Callahan
Kreider Boyle MZA
Pouliot Moore Dorsett
Powe Miller Pyatt
Asham Mashinter Kristo

Those are all guys who have NHL ability (with the possible exception of Mashinter). Leaving Mash out, that gives us 5 extra bodies at forward. Keep a spare or two, and you still have three to four extra forwards. The ONLY place where it makes sense to subtract from the defense to add to the forward pool is in your imagination, with your irrational take on MDZ as a bottom pairing D.

Incidentally, my bet is that Kristo or MZA solidify a spot on the 2nd line RW, giving us a top 6 of:

Nash Stepan Callahan
Hagelin Richards MZA/Kristo
Kreider Brassard Kristo/MZA

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09-02-2013, 05:15 AM
  #84
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Originally Posted by smoneil View Post
We're clearly watching different teams. I'm watching the one where Del Zotto was the #4 (and often higher) D on this team for the last two years. Every single stat corroborates what my two eyes are telling me. I will not agree to disagree, because your position is based on absolutely nothing. Del Zotto has had more points, more PP production, more ES minutes, more PP minutes, more PK minutes and tougher match ups. There is literally nothing at all to support your idea that Stralman is anything more than a #5/6 defenseman.




Who out of the following will be sitting or demoted to bottom 6 after you acquire said LW? Stepan? Callahan? Nash? Richards? Brassard? Hagelin? Kreider? MZA? That's 8 guys who will likely, at least at some points during the season, get top 6 minutes. That's not even taking guys like Hrivik or Kristo into account.

Hags Stepan Nash
Richards Brassard Callahan
Kreider Boyle MZA
Pouliot Moore Dorsett
Powe Miller Pyatt
Asham Mashinter Kristo

Those are all guys who have NHL ability (with the possible exception of Mashinter). Leaving Mash out, that gives us 5 extra bodies at forward. Keep a spare or two, and you still have three to four extra forwards. The ONLY place where it makes sense to subtract from the defense to add to the forward pool is in your imagination, with your irrational take on MDZ as a bottom pairing D.

Incidentally, my bet is that Kristo or MZA solidify a spot on the 2nd line RW, giving us a top 6 of:

Nash Stepan Callahan
Hagelin Richards MZA/Kristo
Kreider Brassard Kristo/MZA
During the reg. season 2012-13 Del Zotto was definitely ahead of Strålman on the depth chart. MDZ was the #4 with healthy Staal, and #3 after his injury. No debate from me. Strålman did however pass Del Zotto on the depth chart at ES in the playoffs, where he in the end was on the top pairing with McDonagh.

Regarding matchups, most stats say that Strålman got slightly harder matchups than Del Zotto. The only metric that puts MDZ above Anton in that regard is Corsi Rel. QoC, but that is more useful when comparing players from different teams. Straight Corsi QoC is more representative when comparing players from the same team as they have faced the same teams the same number of times.

For example: Playing against Clarke MacArthur (16.2 Corsi Rel., -3.93 Corsi On) will give a higher Corsi Rel. QoC than facing Patrik Elias (10.5 Corsi Rel., 18.57 Corsi On), but facing Elias (and his superior possession numbers) will give a higher Corsi QoC.

I genuinely believe that Strålman has the capacity of being more than a #5/#6 because of how he performed last season. As I have shown time and time again; Strålman blew Del Zotto out of the water in every available metric other than points last year being used in very similar situations.

Regarding top-6/bottom-6: that's an entirely outdated concept to me. What you need is: 6 forwards that can play on the PP, 6 forwards that can PK, and a roster that fits under the salary cap. Other than that you just want your forwards to be able to outplay (mainly outpossess) and outscore the opposition. With the salary cap, you will have to have a few specialists that are only useful in specific situations and you won't be able to roll 4 good lines. But three guys on the 4th line is entirely sufficient, and if you have the horses to roll three good lines at ES you should definitely do it. For example I'm entirely convinced that Pouliot and Zuccarello are going to be a lot more valuable than Dorsett, and they are both paid less.

You did however post a top-9 at the end of your post, so I don't want to paint you someone who prays at the altar of the bottom-6 god.

This is a quote from Dave Tippett about defensemen, but it applies to forwards as well (and Anton Strålman for that matter):
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Tippett

"We had a player that was supposed to be a great, shut-down defenseman. He was supposedly the be-all, end-all of defensemen. But when you did a 10-game analysis of him, you found out he was defending all the time because he can’t move the puck.

"Then we had another guy, who supposedly couldn’t defend a lick. Well, he was defending only 20 percent of the time because he’s making good plays out of our end. He may not be the strongest defender, but he’s only doing it 20 percent of the time. So the equation works out better the other way. I ended up trading the other defenseman."


Last edited by Blue Blooded: 09-02-2013 at 05:36 AM.
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09-02-2013, 07:50 AM
  #85
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Originally Posted by aufheben View Post
"They've had", or, you've had?

Stralman plays a very simple game, he'd be fine in any system. He's not the kind of player you can anchor a defense around, but put him on a decent team (i.e. NOT past Toronto, Columbus teams.), and, well he'll succeed.
Agree. Theres room for both MDZ and Stralman on this team. Stralman is a great 3 pair D so can play 15 slightly protected minutes every night and who can step into a top 4 role when called on from time to time. Dont know why people are down on him, hes done exactly what yhe team has required from him. And no im not Swedish.

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09-02-2013, 11:12 AM
  #86
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Agree. Theres room for both MDZ and Stralman on this team. Stralman is a great 3 pair D so can play 15 slightly protected minutes every night and who can step into a top 4 role when called on from time to time. Dont know why people are down on him, hes done exactly what yhe team has required from him. And no im not Swedish.
I'm not down on him. I think he's an excellent 3rd pairing guy, much better in fact than any of the 3rd pairing guys we've had for a LONG time. I just don't see much more than that, and I am wary of trying to make him into something he's never been (top 4 D) based on what I've seen.

This board has a tendency to almost randomly select some players for sainthood and others for demonization. If the name on the sweater is Dubinsky, Del Zotto, Girardi, etc--they could score a triple hat trick and you would still have guys in here griping about their skating technique in the post game thread. If the name on the sweater is Callahan, McDonagh, or Stralman, they could have the worst game of their career, and people would be in here going on about their passion.

I prefer to look at players for what they are, rather than how the board wants to characterize them. Cally is a great 2nd line wing, not a 1st. Stralman is a great 3rd pair D, not a 2nd. McDonagh happens to be as awesome as people make him out to be . Making people into something they aren't only leads to disappointment when they prove that they can't meet the lofty (and unfair) expectations that you've set on them.

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09-02-2013, 11:19 AM
  #87
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During the reg. season 2012-13 Del Zotto was definitely ahead of Strålman on the depth chart. MDZ was the #4 with healthy Staal, and #3 after his injury. No debate from me. Strålman did however pass Del Zotto on the depth chart at ES in the playoffs, where he in the end was on the top pairing with McDonagh.

I genuinely believe that Strålman has the capacity of being more than a #5/#6 because of how he performed last season. As I have shown time and time again; Strålman blew Del Zotto out of the water in every available metric other than points last year being used in very similar situations.
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I cut out most of the advanced stat stuff, as I don't generally use it (nothing against it. Just not my thing). I will say though that you went to a lot of effort to argue that "every" advanced stat backed you up...except the one used as the industry standard.

I brought up stats in the very limited context of refuting the other poster's assertion that Stralman was already the #4. MDZ played significantly more minutes in every setting, played the harder minutes according to the industry standard advanced stat, and put up significantly more production. Stralman was NOT the #4.

As for the playoffs, it did appear that Stralman got more important minutes over Del Zotto--in a very short sample size, when the latter was struggling to even skate with a sports hernia. I bet I could be a better quarterback than Tom Brady too, over a two week span if he had a broken leg.

Even Torts at one point, during a span of games where Strals was filling in on the top 4 because of injuries, said that he was doing well, but they don't really want him playing those kinds of minutes.

Why can't people be happy with what Stralman is? A great bottom pair guy?

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09-02-2013, 11:40 AM
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Originally Posted by smoneil View Post
I cut out most of the advanced stat stuff, as I don't generally use it (nothing against it. Just not my thing). I will say though that you went to a lot of effort to argue that "every" advanced stat backed you up...except the one used as the industry standard.

I brought up stats in the very limited context of refuting the other poster's assertion that Stralman was already the #4. MDZ played significantly more minutes in every setting, played the harder minutes according to the industry standard advanced stat, and put up significantly more production. Stralman was NOT the #4.

As for the playoffs, it did appear that Stralman got more important minutes over Del Zotto--in a very short sample size, when the latter was struggling to even skate with a sports hernia. I bet I could be a better quarterback than Tom Brady too, over a two week span if he had a broken leg.

Even Torts at one point, during a span of games where Strals was filling in on the top 4 because of injuries, said that he was doing well, but they don't really want him playing those kinds of minutes.

Why can't people be happy with what Stralman is? A great bottom pair guy?
It is industry standard when comparing players across teams. But seen as less useful when the players are on the same team as they have played the same schedules. Straight Corsi works better there IMO as it determines who has faced the toughest players in absolute numbers.

Are you going to argue that playing against Clarke MacArthur's -3.9 Corsi is harder than Elias' +18.5 because MacArthur plays on a worse team?

And I honestly don't have an agenda here. I'm just saying that while their usage was basically identical (situationally, Del Zotto played more minutes), Strålman performed a lot better 5v5. So therefore I'd prefer trying to give Strålman more minutes 5v5 to see if he can handle it.

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09-02-2013, 12:18 PM
  #89
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It is industry standard when comparing players across teams. But seen as less useful when the players are on the same team as they have played the same schedules. Straight Corsi works better there IMO as it determines who has faced the toughest players in absolute numbers.

Are you going to argue that playing against Clarke MacArthur's -3.9 Corsi is harder than Elias' +18.5 because MacArthur plays on a worse team?

And I honestly don't have an agenda here. I'm just saying that while their usage was basically identical (situationally, Del Zotto played more minutes), Strålman performed a lot better 5v5. So therefore I'd prefer trying to give Strålman more minutes 5v5 to see if he can handle it.

I couldn't tell you one way or the other (re: Elias vs. MacArthur). Part of the reason I don't really do advanced stats is because I suck at math, haha. I'm a total language nerd. All I know is I've seen a couple of different articles, from non-biased sources, that did an advanced stat analysis and they said that the top four (Staal, McD, Girardi and MDZ) were not sheltered while the bottom pair (Strals and Moore) were. That's the extent of my knowledge/citation of advanced stats. The lion's share of my argument comes from my eyes and from common sense (ie--if Strals was already the #4, he would be playing more minutes in at least SOME situations over MDZ, or at least come close in production--he hasn't).

The way I saw last season was that Stralman played comparable defense 5v5, and was a LOT worse on special teams. For him to have a real shot at displacing MDZ at the #4, he will have to do a lot better than that, particularly when his competition was playing with a sports hernia (Del Zotto, pre injury, looked closer to McDonagh than to Stralman--MDZ was often our best defenseman over those first 20 games).

Strals is still a great player to have. We need that guy on the bottom pair who won't be horrendously exposed in the event of (with this team, inevitable) injury. We are fortunate to have two of those guys in Moore and Stralman. Things are only getting better as well--if McIlrath develops the way we're all hoping, the team will be in a position to have to decide whether they want to have a good bottom pair guy like Stralman as the #7, or if they want to move someone. I just don't think it would be any of the big four that gets moved.

If McIlrath plays his way onto the roster, I could see Stralman packaged with one of our hundreds of extra forwards for an upgrade. This is all just speculation though, as McIlrath might still be more than a year away. I don't see them moving any established piece unless McI establishes himself from the beginning or at least very early in the season.

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11-18-2013, 04:49 PM
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Stralman has grown into a legit #4 defenceman imo. Torts really made him find his game. Looking really good this season. Hopefully he will stay at a descent price. I can imagine him enjoying having a top 4 spot for the first time in his career.

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11-19-2013, 08:08 AM
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Originally Posted by Sticky Fingers View Post
Stralman has grown into a legit #4 defenceman imo. Torts really made him find his game. Looking really good this season. Hopefully he will stay at a descent price. I can imagine him enjoying having a top 4 spot for the first time in his career.
It's quite funny what an impact Torts had on Stralmans game really. When the Rangers signed him 2 years ago Torts admitted himself that he wasn't really in favor of the signing and didn't see the need. But I think after Stralman realizing this might be his last shot in the NHL and Torts seeing Stralsy's potential and what he could do to coach him into a better player, things just clicked.

I mean, Torts would always trust Stralman to do his job, and he always knew what he would get and wasn't afraid of putting Stralman on the ice in tricky situations. In the playoffs that year Stralman was arguably our best defenseman and he was one of few Rangers who played up to his potential in the last year's playoffs. He seemed completely unfazed by the whole thing.

If we could keep him at a somewhat decent price next year, he should be signed. I wouldn't be surprised if he got a pretty nice offer on the open market though.

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11-19-2013, 01:39 PM
  #92
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Originally Posted by Sticky Fingers View Post
Stralman has grown into a legit #4 defenceman imo. Torts really made him find his game. Looking really good this season. Hopefully he will stay at a descent price. I can imagine him enjoying having a top 4 spot for the first time in his career.
Indeed. I think he already was most of last season, actually. Since that playoff run in 2012, and him earning new deal with the Rangers it seems he got his confidence back, settled down and found his way.

Considering the current situation on the team (I know it is a very small sample size but anyways), it's kind of entertaining to re-read this thread, so thanks for the bump!

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11-19-2013, 06:58 PM
  #93
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Stralzy for Norris!

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