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The Panthers lack heart.

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Old
11-13-2006, 01:59 PM
  #26
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For those that missed what some are talking about here...

Montador (6-0 and 205) stepping in for Kolnik (5-11 and 192) against Cam Janssen (6-0 and 210)...

http://hfhelper02.hockeyfights.com/c...or_janssen.wmv

Campbell (6-0 and 194) stepping in for (his best friend on the team) Weiss (5-11 and 185) against Michael Rupp (6-5 and 230)...

http://hfhelper02.hockeyfights.com/c...pbell_rupp.wmv

Meanwhile, Bryan Allen (6-4 and 220), Jay Bouwmeester (6-4 and 212), Chris Gratton (6-4 and 231), Nathan Horton (6-2 and 229), Olli Jokinen (6-3 and 214), Branislav Mezei (6-5 and 235), Gary Roberts (6-2 and 209), and Jozef Stumpel (6-3 and 222) watch on as Jacques Martin and his team toughness approach just nod their head at the referees.

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Old
11-13-2006, 02:45 PM
  #27
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Why does this always seem to crop up? The reason we are not winning is because we at this time in point, we suck.

The main problem is our offense IMO. Away from home our offense is poor. Even at home our offense isn't great. Apart from the 8-3 thrasing of the Bruins, we have struggled to score much. Hopefully Bertuzzi changes this when he finally gets back, although the jury is still out on him.

I miss Luongo. He has his faults and isn't the best goaltender in the world or anything like that, and 6.75 Mil or whatever he got his probably too much for him, but i do miss him standing on his head at times. Goaltending isn't our problem though. I still dislike the trade alot. It isn't that we traded Luongo away, but what we got in return. The jury is still out on Bertuzzi, Krajicek apparently is playing very well and canucks are just as happy with him as they are with Allen, and whilst Auld is pretty good he isn't going to win us games. Heck, even the 6th rounder we traded away in that deal ended up being a player who has exploded in the RSL. Although obviously we wouldn't have drafted him. Not when Peter Aston was around.

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Old
11-13-2006, 03:14 PM
  #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by J17 Vs Proclamation View Post
Why does this always seem to crop up? The reason we are not winning is because we at this time in point, we suck.
Easy...Van Ryn and now Weiss injuries. I'm sure there'll be more too because JM is clueless. Even Detroit re-called Brad Norton despite Scotty Bowman's advice to go with a shootout specialist instead. I'm not saying to play the enforcer every game but at least games where the other team is carrying one or two...like tonight against Washington. As a precaution if nothing more.


Last edited by Lauser3*: 11-13-2006 at 03:19 PM.
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Old
11-13-2006, 03:14 PM
  #29
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It crops up because people now see the need for it. Janssen pushed this team around twice, and twice there was no answer for him except Montador. He looks square at Kolnik, after taking it easy on Monty, when Kolnik was jawing at him and asked him what he was going to do about it. Noone did anything about it, and Janssen still pushed the team around.

I'm not saying an enforcer will get this team into the playoffs, but I think this team would feel more comfortable to play with someone there to protect them.

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Old
11-13-2006, 03:21 PM
  #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lauser3 View Post
Meanwhile, Bryan Allen (6-4 and 220), Jay Bouwmeester (6-4 and 212), Chris Gratton (6-4 and 231), Nathan Horton (6-2 and 229), Olli Jokinen (6-3 and 214), Branislav Mezei (6-5 and 235), Gary Roberts (6-2 and 209), and Jozef Stumpel (6-3 and 222) watch on as Jacques Martin and his team toughness approach just nod their head at the referees.
i'm most disappointed in gratton. he's a big guy (biggest of this group) who sorta has to play with a bit of an edge and he's coming out in the papers talking about needing protection.

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Old
11-13-2006, 03:26 PM
  #31
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Originally Posted by michaels87 View Post
i'm most disappointed in gratton. he's a big guy (biggest of this group) who sorta has to play with a bit of an edge and he's coming out in the papers talking about needing protection.
Agreed...add Allen for me as well. It should've been them two instead of Campbell and Montador. Or at least avenging those losses later on in the game...Janssen and Rupp would've been game I'm sure. So why not? I remeber Paul Kruse taking out Murphy/Svehla (I believe it was) and Jovanovski and Mellanby both dropped the gloves with him since Paul Laus was preoccupied with Ken Belanger. What happened to the character this team was supposed to have? I'm disappointed, but I can't say that I'm surprised. It's never been part of CG's role before so you can't expect him or even a guy like Allen to just assume that role. Very few people are capable of doing that. Any real hockey player would tell you that it's the toughest job to do in any sport. That's why it bugs me to see how people belittle enforcers and their importance to their teams. But those that know better...respect them and the roles they play. As long as there is hitting in hockey and players are allowed to run around with hockey sticks in their hands...there will always be a place for enforcers and fighting in this game.


Last edited by Lauser3*: 11-13-2006 at 03:34 PM.
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Old
11-13-2006, 04:34 PM
  #32
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Agreed, as well. He knows how to throw his size around out there when he does it, and he has shown, in the past, that he'll drop the gloves if need be. When I suggested Mezei, I just went off of size - I have no idea what he's done elsewhere, I just know he's big, and he can deliver a heavy hit (figured he'd be a better candidate to fight than Montador, or Campbell, at least)

Our offense shouldn't suck. Why they can't score isn't a mystery, and the guys say it in interviews: "We just have to put the puck on net," and then they still just don't do it, if they do, even if they lose, it's not 4-1, but 4-3 in OT/SO or something. They simply don't try hard enough out there during gametime. I know, it's a brutally taxing sport, but if you work your whole life to make it this far, isn't it only logical that a sixty minute game (in which you're not on the ice at all times, anyway) would be deserving of your fullest efforts? They're capable of so, so much more, even as they are right now, injuries and all.

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11-13-2006, 04:48 PM
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nine Cats View Post
Our offense shouldn't suck. Why they can't score isn't a mystery, and the guys say it in interviews: "We just have to put the puck on net," and then they still just don't do it, if they do, even if they lose, it's not 4-1, but 4-3 in OT/SO or something. They simply don't try hard enough out there during gametime. I know, it's a brutally taxing sport, but if you work your whole life to make it this far, isn't it only logical that a sixty minute game (in which you're not on the ice at all times, anyway) would be deserving of your fullest efforts? They're capable of so, so much more, even as they are right now, injuries and all.
we have lost plenty of 4-3 games in OT/SO. the offense doesn't completely suck and we've had at least a decent forecheck in most of the games i've seen (though it doesn't result in enough scoring chances). we are just lacking in consistent scoring chemistry. we've got some decent finishers, decent speed and decent playmakers and it occasionally falls into place.

in any case, it's not a simple matter of not trying. although they've been a bit erratic, in general, i think the effort has been there. in any case, you can't go out there and run around like a chicken with no head. you have to play smart, play off of your teammates and play responsibly. that's easier said than done.

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Old
11-13-2006, 05:08 PM
  #34
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Really, I can't disagree more with anyone saying "the team's problem is this..."

It's not that you're wrong, per se, but that ALL these things are contributing to games being lost.

The lack of offense stems 1) from the team not playing the same game at home as on the road; 2) injuries causing constant lineup changes; and 3) other teams taking liberties to take top Panthers forwards off their games because they don't have to answer for it (no enforcer). Meanwhile the team's surrendering more goals on the other end because 1) Auld isn't a top flight goalie due to an apparent lack of agility and 2) referees are making bad penalty calls against the Panthers at critical moments of the game, as well as 3) the Panthers are committing too many penalties in general.

These problems are caused by a lack of heart for some, a lack of chemistry for others (I don't think chemistry is something that just happens, the newcomers need time to blend in), and a lack of talent for still others.

All forwards, Martin, Keenan, the defense, and the goaltenders all share blame in the play this season. There's holes in the team's structure, and holes in the coaching.

When the Panthers play a home game early in the season and keep attacking attacking attacking and shellac the Bruins 8-3 and defeat several other teams convincingly in their first few home games, but can't do the same on the road as they play a trap defense (according to some posters here, I haven't seen many road games), the coach needs to wake up and try something new, like opening it up a bit.

Anyway, from what I've heard and seen there's numerous problems with this team, some they can help and some they can't. They aren't a bad team on paper, but those weaknesses are hurting them big time.

And to be honest, I'd like to see what a small tweak like replacing Campbell or the #6 defenseman-du-jour with a real heart-and-soul enforcer (a guy that'll stick up for his teammates even without knowing them well) and see if it has any effect on the rest of the team's play.

And the defense needs to find ways to punish opposing forwards coming into the zone without getting whistled for it. They're big, solid men, they need to learn how to check and check hard. Make the other team afraid to come into your territory.

Anyway...I'm done playing armchair general for now. But before I get dismissed as such, let me just add that the results are speaking for themselves as far as how well the current system is working.

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Old
11-13-2006, 05:16 PM
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by michaels87 View Post
we have lost plenty of 4-3 games in OT/SO.
I know, that's why I said that if they do put the puck on net, they don't lose with only one goal to their credit.

The more I think about it, though, I guess you're right. The lines are almost always different with every game, too. So unless everything clicks, they're never going to build up a strong line.

But.. as far as them not trying, I still stand by it - at least to an extent. There are times when they skate hard, throw checks, and make things happen by setting an up-tempo pace early on. And there are times they let the other team dictate the pace, and then play catch-up, and usually they get desperate, and start actually looking like chickens with their heads cut off. If they can do it it some games, and come out hard, they need to in all of them, because from the second on, they play - at the least, a decent game. They need to wake up and kick it in high gear from the start, and keep it that way. That's the gist (sp?) of my argument.

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11-13-2006, 05:44 PM
  #36
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Originally Posted by EnoughExcuses View Post
Really, I can't disagree more with anyone saying "the team's problem is this..."

It's not that you're wrong, per se, but that ALL these things are contributing to games being lost.
absolutely. i was just addressing the comments about our offense but i agree, the problem is a "whole team" problem.

we do trap sometimes but quite often, when the game's tied or we're down 1, you'll see 2 guys in deep. we had a great forecheck going against buffalo the other night (after a slow start) with the game going back and forth and again against jersey after they got their first goal. i would expect a trap when we've got a bit of a lead and maybe at other times depending on the team and game situation but i don't see us trapping all the time.

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Old
11-14-2006, 06:54 AM
  #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lauser3 View Post
What happened to the character this team was supposed to have? I'm disappointed, but I can't say that I'm surprised.
Neither am I. IMO, Martin's soft gloves approach to hockey is stifling whatever chippy character this team possesses.

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11-14-2006, 06:57 AM
  #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EnoughExcuses View Post
Really, I can't disagree more with anyone saying "the team's problem is this..."

It's not that you're wrong, per se, but that ALL these things are contributing to games being lost.

The lack of offense stems 1) from the team not playing the same game at home as on the road; 2) injuries causing constant lineup changes; and 3) other teams taking liberties to take top Panthers forwards off their games because they don't have to answer for it (no enforcer). Meanwhile the team's surrendering more goals on the other end because 1) Auld isn't a top flight goalie due to an apparent lack of agility and 2) referees are making bad penalty calls against the Panthers at critical moments of the game, as well as 3) the Panthers are committing too many penalties in general.

These problems are caused by a lack of heart for some, a lack of chemistry for others (I don't think chemistry is something that just happens, the newcomers need time to blend in), and a lack of talent for still others.

All forwards, Martin, Keenan, the defense, and the goaltenders all share blame in the play this season. There's holes in the team's structure, and holes in the coaching.

When the Panthers play a home game early in the season and keep attacking attacking attacking and shellac the Bruins 8-3 and defeat several other teams convincingly in their first few home games, but can't do the same on the road as they play a trap defense (according to some posters here, I haven't seen many road games), the coach needs to wake up and try something new, like opening it up a bit.

Anyway, from what I've heard and seen there's numerous problems with this team, some they can help and some they can't. They aren't a bad team on paper, but those weaknesses are hurting them big time.

And to be honest, I'd like to see what a small tweak like replacing Campbell or the #6 defenseman-du-jour with a real heart-and-soul enforcer (a guy that'll stick up for his teammates even without knowing them well) and see if it has any effect on the rest of the team's play.

And the defense needs to find ways to punish opposing forwards coming into the zone without getting whistled for it. They're big, solid men, they need to learn how to check and check hard. Make the other team afraid to come into your territory.

Anyway...I'm done playing armchair general for now. But before I get dismissed as such, let me just add that the results are speaking for themselves as far as how well the current system is working.
Spot on, good sir, spot on!

There are so many directions to point fingers at, it's ridiculous.

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Old
11-14-2006, 12:20 PM
  #39
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I agree with everything everyone is saying.

The problem wiht out offense is, we do WAY too muhc cycling along the boards. Too much crap on the perimete, and when the puck does eventually get to the slot, whoever has the oppertunity gets their stick check and never gets a shot off (Horton is famous for that).

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11-14-2006, 02:03 PM
  #40
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I was at the game last night (Washington), and it just killed me. I really can't believe we're this bad again this year. Like everyone else, i had visions of the playoffs this year. I know it's still waaay to early to write them off, but it's getting later and later every week.

The biggest thing I noticed is the excess passing on the PP. It always blows up in their faces. There is one in particular from last night...... on the PP, I think it was Stumpy who had the puck between the faceoff circle and the crease - perfect angle to make something happen, but he passed it behind him into the corner then it got taken out of the zone. Everyone around me was beyond sick at that move.

I agree with everyone else, we need a tough guy to break a few heads and some forwards who rush and get dirty.

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11-14-2006, 02:21 PM
  #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VAiN View Post
The biggest thing I noticed is the excess passing on the PP. It always blows up in their faces. There is one in particular from last night...... on the PP, I think it was Stumpy who had the puck between the faceoff circle and the crease - perfect angle to make something happen, but he passed it behind him into the corner then it got taken out of the zone. Everyone around me was beyond sick at that move.
Funny how the PP is one area where the team has been relatively successful. Personally, in the few televised games I saw, it seemed the Panthers move the puck too slowly to get open shooting lanes - seemed other teams I've watched can make snappier passes and get those one-time shots off to actually create a scoring chance. Panthers seem to think about every pass before doing it, telegraphing it to the opposing penalty killers and goalie. Reduces their chances. Defense also seemed very hesitant to fire the puck on net, preferring to cycle it along the boards down low to the forwards.

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Old
11-14-2006, 03:58 PM
  #42
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There are so many threads on subjects like this that I just really have no clue where to post anything anymore. So I'll post this here.

I was watching Atlanta one game and all of their breakout passes were made with their wingers already in movement and they had speed. They'd then be able to rush the puck into the zone and do something with it. We don't have that speed, I know that. Atlanta's players would have speed before they got the puck, so when they got the puck they'd be able to just go by a defender, or if they dumped the puck they could easily beat him. The Panthers don't have that movement or speed. You see how many times we try to make a breakout pass in our zone and we can't get the puck out of our zone? We stand still and the other team can just skate in a little and poke it off of our sticks. Then we just hook them and get a penalty.

When I think of most of the other 29 NHL teams, I can think of atleast one player who I could say is speedy, has skill, can score many goals. Some teams even have multiple of these players. When I think of the Panthers, there are some big names that many people have heard of ... but they don't come to me as very good skilled speedy scorers.

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