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HOH Top 60 Centers of All-Time: Round 1 Preliminary Discussion Thread

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Old
09-01-2013, 05:35 PM
  #201
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Originally Posted by bigbuffalo313 View Post
What Conacher are you talking about? There are tons of them and the only one I could find in the HOF was Charlie who was RW.
He is referring to Lionel. Charlie, Lionel and Roy (3 brothers) are all in the HHOF.

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09-01-2013, 06:31 PM
  #202
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Criteria

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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
All the players you listed retired before the Hall was created in 1945, many of them a long time beforehand, and as you well know, Jackson was kept out for off-ice reasons.

Seriously, you're comparing players who retired long before the Hall was created (Burch, Smith, Holmes) with guys inducted by the Veteran's Committee.

I definitely think it's a small strike against O'Connor that as a Hart winner who retired after the Hall had already been created (so there wasn't opportunity to "forget him"), he was passed over year after year until a special Committee was created with the task of enshrining more players from the 30s and 40s. IMO, it supports the idea that his one great season was a major outlier, perhaps analogous to Corey Perry's Hart winning season

Edit: It's still possible that I'll include O'Connor on my list. I'm pretty murky after spot 50 or 60 at the moment. But I won't be upset if I end up running out of room for him.
A lot of hockey was played between 1945, acting on the idea and 1961 the physical reality of the building on the CNE grounds. Yet both dates are strictly arbitrary that in no way change a player's talent, contribution or heritage. Eddie Shore would have been an all time great regardless of when the idea of a HHOF was adopted. Likewise a large number of discussable candidates would exist.

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09-01-2013, 07:56 PM
  #203
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
A lot of hockey was played between 1945, acting on the idea and 1961 the physical reality of the building on the CNE grounds. Yet both dates are strictly arbitrary that in no way change a player's talent, contribution or heritage. Eddie Shore would have been an all time great regardless of when the idea of a HHOF was adopted. Likewise a large number of discussable candidates would exist.
Eddie Shore isn't the issue here, Buddy O'Connor is, and his career is really questionable for a top 80 guy IMO.

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09-01-2013, 08:24 PM
  #204
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Interesting sidebar to Buddy O'Connor. Seems Lester Patrick in New York had quite the falling out with new GM Boucher over the trade that brought O'Connor & Eddols (earlier Eddols traded from Toronto to Montreal for Ted Kennedy's rights by Selke causing friction with Smythe) to the Rangers, however, O'Connor played exceptionally well & lead the Rangers against the Wings in 1950 taking them to 7 games in the Finals. Eddols becoming a solid Defenceman. In the 2009 book 100 Ranger Greats, O'Connor ranks 38th. Was also voted Canadas Athlete of the Year in 1948 for winning the Most Valuable Player & Lady Byng in the NHL, first time a player had done so. That would be your Lionel Conacher Award. Male Athlete of the Year.


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09-01-2013, 09:46 PM
  #205
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Without going back to far -- the best two-way centers I've ever seen are:
1) Sergei Fedorov
2) Pavel Datsyuk
3) Peter Forsberg

You take Gretzky, Lemieux and whoever, I'll take those three guys. I'm pretty sure we'll own the puck.

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09-01-2013, 11:25 PM
  #206
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PCHA and WCHL/WHL All-Star Records for Centers/Rovers

The PCHA All-Star teams were selected by Mickey Ion, the chief referee of the PCHA who reffed most of their games. They are from this thread. Occasionally, there is more than one 1st Team All-Star listed per season at the same position. In many seasons, there is limited information as to 2nd Team All-Stars, so assume the following are 1st Teamers unless otherwise notied.

As indicated above, the WCHL/WHL All-Stars were selected by a local newspaper.

Here are the Hall of Famers most known as centers in the PCHA listed in alphabetical order. I'm including Bernie Morris, who seems to have been omitted from the HHOF because of allegations of draft dodging during World War I, and Cyclone Taylor, who is best known as a rover.

Tommy Dunderdale
PCHA All Star Center (1912, 1913, 1914, 1915, 1920)
PCHA All Star Left Wing (1922)

Frank Foyston
PCHA All Star Forward (C/RW?) (1917, 1918, 1921, 1924)
PCHA All Star Rover (1920)
PCHA All Star Left Wing (1923)
PCHA 2nd Team All Star (C/RW?) (1919, 1922)

Frank Fredrickson
PCHA All Star Center (1921, 1923, 1924)
PCHA 1st Team All Star Substitute (1922)
WHL 1st Team All Star (1926)

Mickey MacKay
PCHA All Star Center (1915, 1917, 1919)
PCHA All Star Rover (1922)
PCHA All Star Right Wing (1923)
PCHA 2nd Team All Star Center (1916, 1918, 1921)
WCHL All-Star Forward (1925)

Bernie Morris
PCHA All Star Forward (C/RW?) (1916, 1917, 1918, 1919, 1921)
PCHA All Star Right Wing (1922)
PCHA 2nd Team All Star Center (1923)

Cyclone Taylor
PCHA All-Star Rover (1912, 1913, 1914, 1915, 1916, 1917, 1918)
PCHA 2nd Team All-Star Center (1920)

Once again, here is Sturminator's Vs2 study on the top scorers in the PCHA.

Here are All-Star records for players best known for what they did in the NHA/NHL but who spent a couple of years out west:

Jack Adams
PCHA All-Star Center (1921, 1922)

Frank Boucher
PCHA All-Star Spare (1923, 1924)
WCHL All-Star C (sub?) (1925)

Newsy Lalonde
PCHA All-Star Center (1912)
WCHL All-Star Center (sub?) (1924)

Here are the All-Star records for the two Hall of Famers most known as centers in the WCHL/WHL

Dick Irvin
WCHL All-Star Center (sub?) (1924)
PCHA 2nd Team All-Star Center (1917)
WCHL 2nd Team All-Star Center (1922, 1925)

Duke Keats
WCHL 1st Team All-Star Center (1922, 1923, 1924, 1925)
WHL 1st Team All-Star (sub?) (1926)


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Old
09-02-2013, 12:28 AM
  #207
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NHA/pre-consolidation NHL centers

I actually feel I know a lot more about the star centers of the PCHA and WCHL/WHL than I do about the star centers of the NHA and pre-consolidation NHL. The fact that the PCHA and WCHL/WHL had annual All-Star teams certainly helps, and the Vs2 study on the PCHA players is useful too IMO.

I think there is something of a "Big 3" in the NHA/pre-consolidation NHL - Newsy Lalonde, Frank Nighbor, and Joe Malone, all of whom made the 2008 Top 100 list on this site (though Nighbor was much lower than he would be if the list were made today). But after those 3, I have a hard time figuring out the best of the rest.

From a quick scan, Jack Adams and Tommy Smith seem to be the only HHOFers who peaked in the NHA/NHL during this time period. Prior to consolidation, the NHL is thought to have had better defensemen than the western leagues. Were the best centers (other than the big 3) mostly out west?

Edit: The NHL had more than their share of the top wingers during the time period, as well. Very few notable "wingers" in the western leagues. Seems like for whatever reason, the best players in the west tended to play center or rover. Obviously, the PCHA keeping the rover position long after the NHL abolished it has something to do with it.


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Old
09-02-2013, 12:37 AM
  #208
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RedWingsNow View Post
Without going back to far -- the best two-way centers I've ever seen are:
1) Sergei Fedorov
2) Pavel Datsyuk
3) Peter Forsberg

You take Gretzky, Lemieux and whoever, I'll take those three guys. I'm pretty sure we'll own the puck.
I'll take Gretzky, Lemieux, and Beliveau and we'll see who owns the puck. It's hard to own the puck when it's in the back of the net.

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09-02-2013, 01:10 AM
  #209
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I'll take Gretzky, Lemieux, and Beliveau and we'll see who owns the puck. It's hard to own the puck when it's in the back of the net.
Yeah, well transport them to the 2000s with bulked up goalies, the trap, clutch and grab...

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09-02-2013, 01:21 AM
  #210
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Originally Posted by RedWingsNow View Post
Yeah, well transport them to the 2000s with bulked up goalies, the trap, clutch and grab...
You do realize that Gretzky and Lemieux played into the DPE with bulked up goalies, the trap, clutch and grab, ect, right? And as over-the-hill players still managed to make the scoring leader lists right?

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09-02-2013, 08:46 AM
  #211
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post

Tommy Dunderdale
PCHA All Star Center (1912, 1913, 1914, 1915, 1920)
PCHA All Star Left Wing (1922)

Frank Fredrickson
PCHA All Star Center (1921, 1923, 1924)
PCHA 1st Team All Star Substitute (1922)
WHL 1st Team All Star (1926)

Duke Keats
WCHL 1st Team All-Star Center (1922, 1923, 1924, 1925)
WHL 1st Team All-Star (sub?) (1926)
I'd always been under the impression that Keats and Fredrickson were both clearly ahead of Dunderdale, but these achievements seem to favour him.

How would you rate the strength of the 1910s PCHA to the PCHA and WCHL of the 1920s? Would it be safe to say that Keats and Fredrickson had stronger competition?

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09-02-2013, 09:20 AM
  #212
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Quote:
Originally Posted by intylerwetrust View Post
In terms of active players I think the list ought to include:

for sure:
Crosby
Malkin

maybe:
Datsyuk
Zetterberg (W?)
Thornton
Sedin

hard to say given their short careers to date:
Stamkos
Toews
Datsyuk is REALLY not a maybe IMO. A valid comparison can be made with Dave Keon (there has been some discussion earlier on this topic).

The "maybe" is whether he ends up in the first half or the second half of the rankings.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
I don't see what makes Thornton worse than Dale Hawerchuk or Denis Savard, or how any of them could rank significantly below Peter Stastny

So I guess that means I'd add Thornton to the "definite" pile. Datsyuk too... Somewhere

Stamkos is tough - he already has a very historically significant regular season peak, but nothing else
While I think Savard and Hawerchuck rank significantively below Stastny on a "numerical" scale -- the "play" gap between them is probably closer than the "numerical" gap.

Stamkos doesn't belong on the list IMO.

Quote:
Originally Posted by intylerwetrust View Post
what order would the following go:

Lindros
Francis
Oates
Hawerchuk
Sundin
Modano
Lafontaine
Nieuwendyk
Savard
Turgeon
Roenick

(this is my order off the top of my head)


Does Larionov make the list?
Larionov is list-material.
Of your list, IMO, Turgeon and Roenick aren't.

Quote:
Originally Posted by reckoning View Post
I could also see Lecavalier and Richards making a few lists (though probably not mine).

As much as I dislike the idea of putting in a player who's only played six seasons, look at what Jonathan Toews has accomplished already: Top centre on two Cup winners and Conn Smythe winner along with playing elite Selke-quality defence. How do you leave him out?
Toews? While I really like the player, I'm not sure how significantly ahead of Phil Watson he is at this point (and I consider Watson as some kind of a benchmark -- if I'm not sure a player is that much better than Watson (up until this point), then I don'T consider him a serious candiate.

Still, I might be wrong on Toews. Just realized that he led all players last season in ES goals.

Speaking of last season, how do you guys treat last season's achievements? I tend to treat them as any other season (because if 2013 is the strongest argument for a player, then he isn't list-material at all). I'd give St-Louis full credit for his Art Ross if we were on the wingers poll, but I wouldn't even consider PK Subban for a D-Men poll, because 3 seasons weren't cutting it anyways

Quote:
Originally Posted by VanIslander View Post
Am I crazy to think Bykov, Peca, Lafontaine, Trihey, Walsh and Dunderdale deserve consideration?
IMO...

Lafontaine will make my list and thus obviously deserves consideration.
Dunderdale deserves consideration and is otherwise the best candidate to make it out of this group.
Trihey and Walsh deserves to be considered. Too early to tell -- chances are, they don't make my list.
I won't give any consideration to Mike Peca.

Bykov is probably somewhere between Trihey/Walsh and Peca. I must admit I don't know enough about him (with a degree of certitude) to definitely exclude him right away.

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09-02-2013, 09:40 AM
  #213
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Mickey Ion PCHA All-Star Teams

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
PCHA and WCHL/WHL All-Star Records for Centers/Rovers

The PCHA All-Star teams were selected by Mickey Ion, the chief referee of the PCHA who reffed most of their games. They are from this thread. Occasionally, there is more than one 1st Team All-Star listed per season at the same position. In many seasons, there is limited information as to 2nd Team All-Stars, so assume the following are 1st Teamers unless otherwise notied.

As indicated above, the WCHL/WHL All-Stars were selected by a local newspaper.

Here are the Hall of Famers most known as centers in the PCHA listed in alphabetical order. I'm including Bernie Morris, who seems to have been omitted from the HHOF because of allegations of draft dodging during World War I, and Cyclone Taylor, who is best known as a rover.

Tommy Dunderdale
PCHA All Star Center (1912, 1913, 1914, 1915, 1920)
PCHA All Star Left Wing (1922)

Frank Foyston
PCHA All Star Forward (C/RW?) (1917, 1918, 1921, 1924)
PCHA All Star Rover (1920)
PCHA All Star Left Wing (1923)
PCHA 2nd Team All Star (C/RW?) (1919, 1922)

Frank Fredrickson
PCHA All Star Center (1921, 1923, 1924)
PCHA 1st Team All Star Substitute (1922)
WHL 1st Team All Star (1926)

Mickey MacKay
PCHA All Star Center (1915, 1917, 1919)
PCHA All Star Rover (1922)
PCHA All Star Right Wing (1923)
PCHA 2nd Team All Star Center (1916, 1918, 1921)
WCHL All-Star Forward (1925)

Bernie Morris
PCHA All Star Forward (C/RW?) (1916, 1917, 1918, 1919, 1921)
PCHA All Star Right Wing (1922)
PCHA 2nd Team All Star Center (1923)

Cyclone Taylor
PCHA All-Star Rover (1912, 1913, 1914, 1915, 1916, 1917, 1918)
PCHA 2nd Team All-Star Center (1920)

Once again, here is Sturminator's Vs2 study on the top scorers in the PCHA.

Here are All-Star records for players best known for what they did in the NHA/NHL but who spent a couple of years out west:

Jack Adams
PCHA All-Star Center (1921, 1922)

Frank Boucher
PCHA All-Star Spare (1923, 1924)
WCHL All-Star C (sub?) (1925)

Newsy Lalonde
PCHA All-Star Center (1912)
WCHL All-Star Center (sub?) (1924)

Here are the All-Star records for the two Hall of Famers most known as centers in the WCHL/WHL

Dick Irvin
WCHL All-Star Center (sub?) (1924)
PCHA 2nd Team All-Star Center (1917)
WCHL 2nd Team All-Star Center (1922, 1925)

Duke Keats
WCHL 1st Team All-Star Center (1922, 1923, 1924, 1925)
WHL 1st Team All-Star (sub?) (1926)
Still comes down to one opinion - Mickey Ion's, league employee, about a season and season to season comparisons.

Never subjected to a study or criticism of the NHL All-Star teams of the March 1925 MacLean's or similar efforts.

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09-02-2013, 09:48 AM
  #214
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Just for curiosity...

Is your Top-4 firmly established? (both identity of players and order...)

Is your Top-5 firmly established (both identity of players and order...)

Just FYI :

Top-4 : Yes and yes
Top-5 : No

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09-02-2013, 10:34 AM
  #215
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Just for curiosity...

Is your Top-4 firmly established? (both identity of players and order...)

Is your Top-5 firmly established (both identity of players and order...)
Top 4: For me the top 4 are clearly ahead of the rest. I'm guessing most of us will have the same top 3, but my #4 is closer to #3 than #5.

The three I have from #5 to #7 are extremely close.

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09-02-2013, 11:09 AM
  #216
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You do realize that Gretzky and Lemieux played into the DPE with bulked up goalies, the trap, clutch and grab, ect, right? And as over-the-hill players still managed to make the scoring leader lists right?
Sure I do.
Pavel Datsyuk at age 34
47 games 15 goals 34 assists 49 points +21
8 goals, 8 assists on the powerplay

Wayne Gretzky at age 34
48 games 11 goals 37 assists 48 points -20
3 goals 19 assists on the powerplay

Gretzky's season came in the lockout year of 94-95. Datsyuk's in the lockout season of 12-13. That just happens to be Gretzky's low point, production-wise (until his final year, anyway). But still, let's take Gretzky at 35

23 goals, 102 points -13.
Datsyuk at 35 will probably be 25 goals 75 to 85 points, +15 to +30... 54 percent faceoffs and Selke caliber defense

Obvious Datsyuk wouldn't be a 200 point guy if he was teleported back to the 80s. Heck, Datsyuk was 23 before he even came to the NHL. By then Gretzky had 268 goals and 400 assists to his name.. 668 points before 23.. Datsyuk is at 767 for his career.

Still, I wonder what an in-your-prime Datsyuk looks like playing in the 80s. My guess is that he'd be unreal.

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09-02-2013, 11:52 AM
  #217
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Originally Posted by reckoning View Post
I'd always been under the impression that Keats and Fredrickson were both clearly ahead of Dunderdale, but these achievements seem to favour him.

How would you rate the strength of the 1910s PCHA to the PCHA and WCHL of the 1920s? Would it be safe to say that Keats and Fredrickson had stronger competition?
I used to have Dunderdale ahead of Keats and Fredrickson, mostly because of the PCHA All-Star Teams, but recently I've reversed that decision. My current thinking is that Keats and Fredrickson are the best of the western centers not named Cyclone Taylor (edit: Maybe Mickey MacKay too as a C/rover), though I'll also have Dunderdale on my list somewhere. A couple of thoughts:

1) To answer your question about competition - sort of.

The PCHA folded in 1924 and their best players were absorbed into the WCHL. So the 1925 and 1926 WCHL/WHL was probably stronger than the PCHA ever was. In fact, it was probably stronger than the NHL at the time, as 6 of the top 10 scorers and the top 4 in Hart voting in 1926-27 had all spent the previous year in the WHL.

I'm under the impression that the PCHA wasn't really a threat to the NHL until 1914 or so, so the 1912 and 1913 PCHA was probably fairly weak. Not entirely clear on this one though.

World War I seems to have been particularly hard on the PCHA. The league's peak was probably 1915-1917 when PCHA teams won 2 of 3 Cups. The 1919 finals were tied before the flu epidemic, but at that point, both the NHL and PCHA were affected by WWI.

2) Perhaps most importantly - Keats and Fredrickson had significant seasons in the NHA/NHL.

As I posted above, Keats was a top 5 scorer in the NHA before he left to go fight in World War I. He came back and played in the Big 4 (a predecessor of the WCHL), which didn't have All-Star Teams. After the WCHL/WHL folded, Keats was a top 10 scorer in the NHL the next two seasons at the ages of 31 and 32. Keats has a pretty large advantage in longevity as an elite player over the other guys.

Fredrickson only has one notable season in the NHL, but it was a great one - finishing 4th in scoring in 1926-27 at the age of 31 after the WCHL/WHL folded.

3) Also, if you look at the Vs2 study posted above, Fredrickson seems to have peaked just a bit higher than any PCHA player not named Taylor. Additionally, Fredrickson was a big part of the 1925 Victoria Stanley Cup championship team, outplaying Howie Morenz head to head.

4) As noted elsewhere, the PCHA All-Star Teams are the opinion of one man. Though if you want the opinion of just one man, I can't think of anyone better than the man who refereed all the games. But it's still one man.

5) It's a small point, but Keats and Fredrickson were inducted into the HHOF much earlier than Dunderdale.


Last edited by TheDevilMadeMe: 09-02-2013 at 12:34 PM. Reason: grammar
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Old
09-02-2013, 11:55 AM
  #218
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RedWingsNow View Post
.
Pavel Datsyuk at age 34
47 games 15 goals 34 assists 49 points +21
8 goals, 8 assists on the powerplay

Wayne Gretzky at age 34
48 games 11 goals 37 assists 48 points -20
3 goals 19 assists on the powerplay
But if you looked at age 33, you'd see that Gretzky had nearly double of the points that Datsyuk did (and adjusting the numbers to account for the respective league scoring rates doesn't come close to making up the difference).

Quote:
Still, I wonder what an in-your-prime Datsyuk looks like playing in the 80s. My guess is that he'd be unreal.
Nobody's denying that. I'd see him as maybe putting up offensive numbers not far behind those of Hawerchuk, Savard or Stastny, but playing better defence. He'd be one of the best two-way centres in the game, but behind Trottier and Messier in that regard. A definite Hall of Famer.


But by the same standard, put Gretzky in today's game (assuming he has the same training and conditioning advantages available to him that today's players do) and I think he wins every post-lockout scoring title. Not as many points as he had in the 80s, but more than anyone else. If anything, his game would benefit from the allowing of two-line passes.

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09-02-2013, 11:56 AM
  #219
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Quote:
Originally Posted by reckoning View Post
Top 4: For me the top 4 are clearly ahead of the rest. I'm guessing most of us will have the same top 3, but my #4 is closer to #3 than #5.

The three I have from #5 to #7 are extremely close.
I'm in the exact some boat, though I wouldn't be surprised if our #4 and #5-7 were different.

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09-02-2013, 12:03 PM
  #220
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We look at kuri richard bossy hull.Did Guy Lafleur ever get a chance to play with a great ceneterman no.The irony is Guy Lafleur played center mostly in his first 3 seasons under Bowman

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09-02-2013, 12:36 PM
  #221
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...But by the same standard, put Gretzky in today's game (assuming he has the same training and conditioning advantages available to him that today's players do) and I think he wins every post-lockout scoring title. Not as many points as he had in the 80s, but more than anyone else. If anything, his game would benefit from the allowing of two-line passes.
Agreed. I've seen posts here at HF saying Gretzky and Lemieux couldn't compete in the post-2006 NHL. I doubt players who played against them and retired after Lemieux would agree with this theory. If someone has quotes from guys such as Hasek, Lidstrom, Jagr, Sakic, Brodeur, Chelios, Forsberg, etc. proving me wrong I'd love to see them.

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09-02-2013, 01:34 PM
  #222
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I think we'll be in a position where every single person has the same top 3, but 4-7 will flop around.

I know I'm going to have Joe Malone far higher on my list than most.



On the topic of where Datsyuk is, I have him 4th of post-lockout centres behind Crosby, Malkin and Thornton. He is one of five post-lockout guys I have (the other being Henrik Sedin).

For all the talk about how great Datsyuk is we have to realize that his offensive finishes are quite weak. If we compare Crosby, Malkin, Thornton, Datsyuk, Zetterberg, and H. Sedin we see that.

Crosby: 1, 2, 3, 4, 6
Malkin: 1, 1, 2
Thornton: 1, 2, 3, 5, 8
Datsyuk: 4, 4, 10
Zetterberg: 6, 9
Sedin: 1, 4, 9

This list ignores Stamkos for no other reason than I feel he's too young to really jump onto this list.

Interesting to note that for Malkin's 7 seasons, he has his rookie season, 3 injured seasons, and 3 seasons in the top 2. A healthy Malkin has so far been a lock for top two in scoring.


While Datsyuk is absolutely elite defensively, his offensive numbers leave a lot to be desired. He is realistically 5th (or 7th if you really like Staal and Stamkos) offensively for centres post-lockout. Even in his best defensive years he has never made up that gap.


Last edited by jigglysquishy: 09-02-2013 at 01:48 PM.
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09-02-2013, 01:51 PM
  #223
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Originally Posted by MXD View Post
Just for curiosity...

Is your Top-4 firmly established? (both identity of players and order...)

Is your Top-5 firmly established (both identity of players and order...)

Just FYI :

Top-4 : Yes and yes
Top-5 : No
Really for me after Wayne it's really all wide open, Mario is extremely impressive as an offensive player but his lack of two way play and injuries might bump him down a bit for me.

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09-02-2013, 01:57 PM
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NHA/pre-consolidation NHL centers

I actually feel I know a lot more about the star centers of the PCHA and WCHL/WHL than I do about the star centers of the NHA and pre-consolidation NHL. The fact that the PCHA and WCHL/WHL had annual All-Star teams certainly helps, and the Vs2 study on the PCHA players is useful too IMO.

I think there is something of a "Big 3" in the NHA/pre-consolidation NHL - Newsy Lalonde, Frank Nighbor, and Joe Malone, all of whom made the 2008 Top 100 list on this site (though Nighbor was much lower than he would be if the list were made today). But after those 3, I have a hard time figuring out the best of the rest.

From a quick scan, Jack Adams and Tommy Smith seem to be the only HHOFers who peaked in the NHA/NHL during this time period. Prior to consolidation, the NHL is thought to have had better defensemen than the western leagues. Were the best centers (other than the big 3) mostly out west?

Edit: The NHL had more than their share of the top wingers during the time period, as well. Very few notable "wingers" in the western leagues. Seems like for whatever reason, the best players in the west tended to play center or rover. Obviously, the PCHA keeping the rover position long after the NHL abolished it has something to do with it.
We have the big 3 that you refer to above and Taylor out west but really how many more pre consolidation guys is there room for on a list of the top 60?

There are 9 full decades for another 56 spots (or less if one includes another 1 or 2 guys) and the last 4 decades have new talent streams other than Canadian to consider as well.

I can see the argument for another couple of guys but after that it's extremely debatable IMO.

All I really know for sure is that I will have a better grasp on things after we do the project than I do now.

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09-02-2013, 02:22 PM
  #225
TheDevilMadeMe
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We have the big 3 that you refer to above and Taylor out west but really how many more pre consolidation guys is there room for on a list of the top 60?

There are 9 full decades for another 56 spots (or less if one includes another 1 or 2 guys) and the last 4 decades have new talent streams other than Canadian to consider as well.

I can see the argument for another couple of guys but after that it's extremely debatable IMO.

All I really know for sure is that I will have a better grasp on things after we do the project than I do now.
I know the post you're quoting is about the NHA/NHL, but keep in mind that in the PCHA, the large majority of talent will be considered a center for the purposes of this project. It seems that in leagues that included rovers, the best talent tended to play at that position. Makes sense I guess, a "rover" was able to influence play over more of the ice surface than other players.

So we could very well have a high number of PCHA players on the centers list, and none of them on the wingers list - I believe that Jack Walker is the only PCHA HHOFer we classified as a winger first, and even he spent half his career as a rover. We also had only 2 PCHA defenseman (Moose Johnson and Lester Patrick) on the defenseman list.

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