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Was Lidstrom a generational talent?

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09-01-2013, 08:32 PM
  #76
silkyjohnson50
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The few posters suggesting that Lidstrom didn't have any qualities that stuck out from his peers clearly don't understand why he was so good.

Lidstrom's stick was easily the best of his generation and could probably be argued as the greatest of all time. Being in position is one thing. Actually intercepting, deflecting, and knocking down passes is another. And no one was better. He made it look so easy that it was easy to take for granted. I've never seen another defenceman knock pucks out of the air along the boards as regularly either. This helped in two areas; 1) teams struggled to forecheck on him because he was so good at disrupting their attempted chip and dump ins; and 2) he was a master at holding the offensive line.
In addition, Lidstrom handled the puck as clean as any defencemen that I've ever seen. He was machine like in his ability to catch and throw passes tape to tape. Try to find footage of Lidstrom bobbling the puck or flubbing a pass. He was automatic. He was so clean and calm with the puck that he played a mistake free game. That's a huge reason why he was so consistent night in and night out.

Also, who was better positionally?

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09-01-2013, 08:40 PM
  #77
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I'd say the problem is that it's much harder to separate yourself from the pack now than it was before. Guys were training much less before and the game plans were less developed, so talent would come on top more easily.

I don't want to put a date or anything on that, but it's been observed in many sports. As the mean goes up, standard deviation goes down and the pack gets tighter.

Then, you also have to consider that a dman's work is extremely subtle. When nothing happens, it may be that the guy did a good job.

So yes, Lidstrom is the closest you'll get to a generational talent for dmen, IMO.

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09-01-2013, 08:49 PM
  #78
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Originally Posted by silkyjohnson50 View Post
Lidstrom's stick was easily the best of his generation and could probably be argued as the greatest of all time.
Well... it was the lightest.

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09-01-2013, 09:00 PM
  #79
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Meh, every other guy wins lots of Norrises or runs up for them. Right?


Yes, he's a generational talent. Best carreer of the last 2 decades.

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09-01-2013, 09:32 PM
  #80
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Huge Red Wings fan.
Niklas Lidstrom is the most overrated player on HFboards.

Red Wings defensemen have been protected by the best group of centers the NHL has seen for the last 25 years.

Lidstrom's Norris Trophies are more about Norris Trophy voters sucking at their job.

Seeing people rank Lidstrom with Gretzky and Orr is an absolute joke. For 10 years Gretzky was the best or 2nd best player in the game. Orr, for practically his entire career, was the best player in the game.

Was Lidstrom ever clearly the best player in hockey? Maybe in or around 2002.

The Red Wings franchise protects its aging defensemen.

Fetisov. Rouse. Macoun. Murphy, Duchesne. Wooley. Chelios. Schneider. Rafalski.

It's rare that you ever see an established Wings' defenseman leave Detroit and suddenly become a much better player. (Maybe Aaron Ward? Maybeeeee.)

Conversely, many defensemen come to Detroit and benefit from a team that 1) is usually on the attack b) backchecks extremely c) plays a system that allows defensemen to get more mileage out of their body.

I don't even think Lidstrom was the best defensemen in Detroit. Konstantinov was superior in every element of the game -- except, perhaps, the powerplay, where Vladdie didn't see a ton of time.

Just look at the even strength production numbers. Look at Vladdie's incredible hitting, his ridiculous end-to-end rushes, his fierce hitting, great defense and unbelievable competitive spirit.

Lidstrom and Bourque are similar to me and I'd rank them as about equal. I'd put Larry Robinson ahead of both guys.

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09-01-2013, 09:34 PM
  #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CP31 View Post
Yes because 7 norrises/longevity
It took him half his career to get the first, and since when did Generational equal longevity?

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Originally Posted by robertguess2013 View Post
Simply put I do not think he is head and shoulders above murphy, robinson and figure at most he is equal to bourque.

Therefore he is not generational since they all played for a number of the same years

I view generational differently than others probably.

I want the guy who is in a class all by himself. I LOVE lidstrom I am a wings fan. I cannot honestly say he is better than Ray Bourque. I have a debate of that. I saw them playing at same time. I dont feel Bourque is generational because potvin before him and murphy and robinson among others are comparable.

Therefore I do not feel he is generational is that simple is how you view what generational is.


Michael Jordan is generational. Magic and bird were. Dr J was now we have the so called king or kobe. Yes is guys playing the same time but I cant compare any of them and what they bring to table. They are all different and in own way they are better than the others of their time at what they do.

The above are all different players with different skill sets which made them unique and generational talents. I cannot compare Bird to Magic. I cannot say one is better than other but for their time they were the best same as dr j. Than Jordan came along took over. He was by far the gretsky of basketball.

You can have two guys lemiuex and gretsky at same time. Yet go to next level is jagr and NO one really compares stevie for one year federov for one year.

Where in any one year was Lidstrom just a run away with awards?

He had a few great years yes. Yet he didnt dominate the field in most years was a debate for sure. 2009 mike green was in running etc.. I am just saying he wasnt out there beating off the field like a drum as others I have mentioned.

If you have 5-6 guys who compare in same 20 year time frame I cant say that one of them is generational. To me thats crazy. Is one or two? Ok

I just know is very few years when Lidstrom won the Norris where I thought was automatic. I always questioned if he was going to win That is what I base this debate on.

When gretsky was scoring leader I knew it and was no debate He was soundly above everyone every year etc..



I'm with you.

You don't become generational, you are, or you are not, from the start.

Precious few come in as generational, and the term is being used by everyone very cavalier.

"The everyone has to have a trophy syndrome."

Face it, Generational talent can be like above where the league's blessed with two, and then it can completely skip a generation(s) like the 90's. There was not one generational talent from this time period where they came in as a clear cut above the rest and held it. NONE!

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09-01-2013, 09:35 PM
  #82
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Originally Posted by silkyjohnson50 View Post
The few posters suggesting that Lidstrom didn't have any qualities that stuck out from his peers clearly don't understand why he was so good.

Lidstrom's stick was easily the best of his generation and could probably be argued as the greatest of all time. Being in position is one thing. Actually intercepting, deflecting, and knocking down passes is another.
More myth than fact.



Quote:
In addition, Lidstrom handled the puck as clean as any defencemen that I've ever seen. He was machine like in his ability to catch and throw passes tape to tape. Try to find footage of Lidstrom bobbling the puck or flubbing a pass. He was automatic. He was so clean and calm with the puck that he played a mistake free game. That's a huge reason why he was so consistent night in and night out.
This was Lidstrom's hallmark -- especially post 2003, IMO. Calm. Grace under pressure. Made things look easier than they were. He was a very efficient hockey player.

Earlier in his career Lidstrom had the wheels to join the rush.

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09-01-2013, 09:56 PM
  #83
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Originally Posted by Ugene Malkin View Post

You don't become generational, you are, or you are not, from the start.
This is why Usain Bolt never trains. He didn't become generational, he just was.

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09-01-2013, 10:00 PM
  #84
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"Generational talent" is one of those phrases that means vastly different things to different people.

Lidstrom was the best defenseman of his generation.

Most people would say Lidstrom had the best career of any player of his generation, regardless of position, despite not necessarily being the best in most (or even any) individual years.

Lidstrom was not, however, consistently the best player in the world or a huge step above his peers on a year-by-year basis.

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09-01-2013, 10:13 PM
  #85
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Yes, best defenseman since Orr. Id say so.

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09-01-2013, 10:16 PM
  #86
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Seven Norris trophies. Not 1, 2, or 3. Not even 4, 5, or 6. Seven. That is an absolute ****-load of Norris Trophies.

Another poster already said it, the best defensive defenseman of his time and the best offensive defenseman of his time. There is no player of his generation or the next at his position that is even close.

Don't try to compare Lidstrom to a forward. The positions are vastly different. Apples, oranges, etc. Seven Norris trophies is so far above his competition it is not even funny.

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09-01-2013, 10:26 PM
  #87
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Originally Posted by RedWingsNow View Post
More myth than fact.
Are you serious? Did you watch Lidstrom play? His stickwork was absolutely sickening. Forget about beating him one on one, even 2-on-1s were nearly futile against him. He batted so many saucer passes and dump ins out of the air I thought it was a normal thing, until I got CenterIce and was able to watch other teams play on a regular basis.

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09-01-2013, 10:33 PM
  #88
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Originally Posted by RedWingsNow View Post

Was Lidstrom ever clearly the best player in hockey? Maybe in or around 2002.
.
Selection bias. Aside from Orr, when has a defensman ever been thought of as the best player in the league? And no, Pronger's MVP does not count. The Blues folded like a cheap card table in the playoffs that year, just like every other year.

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09-01-2013, 11:14 PM
  #89
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Interesting 2003 observations from Dave Lewis (then Wings HC) and GM Ken Holland.

http://www.nhl.com/intheslot/read/in...trom/main.html

Holland states that his all-round game is "solid" and if he's not the best d-man in the league "he's in the top 2-3."

Lewis parallels his development to Stefan Persson's.

That's right, Stefan Persson.

When one's coach and GM go on the record with such comments, you might not think "generational talent" or player.

Let's not be praise junkies who seek bigger and better accolades for players who have already earned so much.

And as for the post suggesting that no d-man other than Orr and (once) Pronger gained recognition as the league's top player, Eddie Shore won four Hart trophies.

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09-01-2013, 11:37 PM
  #90
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Quote:
Originally Posted by silkyjohnson50 View Post
Lidstrom's stick was easily the best of his generation and could probably be argued as the greatest of all time.
A certain mr. Jeremy would like to have a word with you on that...

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09-02-2013, 12:44 AM
  #91
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Originally Posted by tsbilly View Post
Selection bias. Aside from Orr, when has a defensman ever been thought of as the best player in the league? And no, Pronger's MVP does not count. The Blues folded like a cheap card table in the playoffs that year, just like every other year.
Selection bias?
The statement was made that Lidstrom ranks with Gretzky and Orr.

Gretzky and Orr were both considered far and away, the best player in the game.

Lidstrom has never been far and away the best player in the NHL.

When I was young I remember people arguing about Robinson and Lafleur.
In the 80s, with Gretzky and Lemieux, everything got turned upside down.

Pronger is definitely one of the defensemen who deserved consideration as the game's best player for a brief span. In fact, Pronger is one of the few defensemen of this era I'd consider taking before Lidstrom.

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09-02-2013, 12:45 AM
  #92
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Pronger is definitely one of the defensemen who deserved consideration as the game's best player for a brief span. In fact, Pronger is one of the few defensemen of this era I'd consider taking before Lidstrom.
Did anyone REALLY think Pronger was better than Jagr? Or did he just win a Hart Trophy by a single vote because Jagr missed almost 1/4 of the season?

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09-02-2013, 12:50 AM
  #93
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Did anyone REALLY think Pronger was better than Jagr? Or did he just win a Hart Trophy by a single vote because Jagr missed almost 1/4 of the season?
Agreed. I've never, ever heard anyone say before that Pronger was better than Lidstrom. Lidstrom is arguably top 10 all-time. When we ranked the top 70 ever in 2009, Pronger didn't make the top 70.

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09-02-2013, 01:01 AM
  #94
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Interesting 2003 observations from Dave Lewis (then Wings HC) and GM Ken Holland.

http://www.nhl.com/intheslot/read/in...trom/main.html

Holland states that his all-round game is "solid" and if he's not the best d-man in the league "he's in the top 2-3."

Lewis parallels his development to Stefan Persson's.

That's right, Stefan Persson.

When one's coach and GM go on the record with such comments, you might not think "generational talent" or player.

Let's not be praise junkies who seek bigger and better accolades for players who have already earned so much.

And as for the post suggesting that no d-man other than Orr and (once) Pronger gained recognition as the league's top player, Eddie Shore won four Hart trophies.
I think that article is way too understated.

But I get the drift here.
Lidstrom was really, really good. You admired him for how good he was at what he did -- and how long we was able to play at a high level.

But while important, but for about a year or so, I always ranked him below the Yzermans, Fedorovs, Datsyuks and Zetterbergs, in terms of importance to this team.


Let's compare Lidstrom to Konstantinov
Player Nick Lidstrom Vladimir konstantinov
Year PTS (ES) -/- PTS (ES) -/-
93-94 56 (36) +43 -- 30 (26) +30
94-95 26 (15) +15 -- 14 (14) +10
95-96 67 (25) +29 --34 (25) +60
96-97 57 (26) +11 --38 (29) +38
-----------------------------------
Lidstrom 206 point 102 ESP +98 52 goals (27 PP)
Konstantinov 116 points 94 ESP +138 34 goals (4 PP)

Offensively, the major difference between Lidstrom and Konstantinov is that Lidstrom was the main powerplay defenseman.

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09-02-2013, 01:03 AM
  #95
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Did anyone REALLY think Pronger was better than Jagr? Or did he just win a Hart Trophy by a single vote because Jagr missed almost 1/4 of the season?
Me? I was never a big believer in Jagr.
Lots of skill, sure. But I'd take a Fedorov or a Forsberg type over a Jagr every day of the week

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09-02-2013, 01:06 AM
  #96
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Agreed. I've never, ever heard anyone say before that Pronger was better than Lidstrom. Lidstrom is arguably top 10 all-time. When we ranked the top 70 ever in 2009, Pronger didn't make the top 70.
That's because Pronger wasn't as consistently good as Lidstrom.

But what if you could take Pronger at his peak vs Lidstrom at his peak for a playoff run?

The equation changes a bit. While I'm sure many would take Lidstrom still, I'd consider Pronger. Guy was almost a modern day version of Robinson, who could beat you with skill, defense or brutality.

It's a little like a Mike Gartner vs Cam Neely argument.

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09-02-2013, 01:17 AM
  #97
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So by your reasoning, Patrick Roy isn't anywhere near being one of the top 2 goalies of all time because he was drafted 52 overall?
i don't consider patrick roy a generational talent, no. but like i said earlier, you can have a generational career even if you aren't a generational talent. to me, talent is something thats visible even before drafting, something that just screams "HOLY CRAP THIS GUY IS GOOD" like lemieux and lindros did. crosby to some extent too considering todays standards, but not sure about him yet. i do however think he was a generational talent htat got wasted unless he gets healthy, similiar to lindros

roy is probably #2 behind hasek in my book, but i'm also heavily biased and love my hasek, but i believe both of them can make a case

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09-02-2013, 01:18 AM
  #98
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Me? I was never a big believer in Jagr.
Lots of skill, sure. But I'd take a Fedorov or a Forsberg type over a Jagr every day of the week
Yet Jagr was a Hart finalist 6 times to Fedorov's and Forsberg's 1 time each.

His 5 Art Ross trophies were more than Forsberg's and Fedorov's top 5 finishes in scoring.

Outside of Lemieux and Gretzky, the 90's-2005 era had 3 generational talents; Hasek, Lidstrom and Jagr.

So to answer the OP's question, yes Lidstrom is a generational talent.

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09-02-2013, 01:31 AM
  #99
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Yet Jagr was a Hart finalist 6 times to Fedorov's and Forsberg's 1 time each.

His 5 Art Ross trophies were more than Forsberg's and Fedorov's top 5 finishes in scoring.

Outside of Lemieux and Gretzky, the 90's-2005 era had 3 generational talents; Hasek, Lidstrom and Jagr.

So to answer the OP's question, yes Lidstrom is a generational talent.
Big surprise. Hart voters select point scorers.
How many times did Jagr win the cup in those Hart seasons?

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09-02-2013, 02:16 AM
  #100
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His stick-poking and most of alla his brain sure ranks among the very best to ever play the game.

It obviosly depends on how hard you are by judging someone as generational or not. Some people want to find the best in every generation and call that "generational talent". Some like to just call the absolute elite generational.

In my eyes the generational players are Howe, Orr, Lemieux, Gretzky and Hasek. Players who left their competition behind with great distance. Lindros should have been there and Roy can be argued. Can´t really give my take on players from the 60´s and earlier...

Lidström is probably one of the ten best players ever and can be argued the second best defenceman (is garanteed top 5...). Belongs in a group of maybe 30 players who are one step below. He didn´t stick out from the greatest of his generation that I would expect from a generational talent. The kind of talent you would like to trade your whole team for.

So, no from me. If he´s generational, so are Potvin, Borque, Chelios and a few more on D alone.

And to add, I don´t think there´s any generational talent in the NHL today. You have a group of elite players with Malkin, Ovechking, Crosby and a couple more who on any given night are even. None of them seperate themselves from the pack as I would expect from a generational talent.

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