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Was Lidstrom a generational talent?

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Old
09-02-2013, 02:27 AM
  #101
Morgoth Bauglir
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Lidstrom was not, however, consistently the best player in the world or a huge step above his peers on a year-by-year basis.
Which is exactly how I'd define "generational". You spelled it out perfectly.

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09-02-2013, 03:32 AM
  #102
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The thing with Lidstrom is that there have been bigger gamebreakers in the history of NHL defense—but not by a ton. But if you go beyond raw ability, what makes Lidstrom special is that he was incredibly valuable as an asset. He was the perfect #1 defenseman for a GM to actually have in real life.

You can look at Orr and speculate about what would have happened if he had played longer, but Lidstrom always played, and even though he was no Orr, he was still better than everybody else. He was the perfect real-life, no speculation player. He didn't have to be, because he was always around and perfectly dependable. He was the perfect 20 year player asset; a GM's dream. If you told a GM he could have a Norris-winning defenseman who would only miss 46 games IN HIS ENTIRE CAREER (including playoffs), he'd take him first overall in a second. We might even be surprised who he'd go first overall over.

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09-02-2013, 04:37 AM
  #103
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Originally Posted by Guru Meditation View Post
The thing with Lidstrom is that there have been bigger gamebreakers in the history of NHL defense—but not by a ton. But if you go beyond raw ability, what makes Lidstrom special is that he was incredibly valuable as an asset. He was the perfect #1 defenseman for a GM to actually have in real life.

You can look at Orr and speculate about what would have happened if he had played longer, but Lidstrom always played, and even though he was no Orr, he was still better than everybody else. He was the perfect real-life, no speculation player. He didn't have to be, because he was always around and perfectly dependable. He was the perfect 20 year player asset; a GM's dream. If you told a GM he could have a Norris-winning defenseman who would only miss 46 games IN HIS ENTIRE CAREER (including playoffs), he'd take him first overall in a second. We might even be surprised who he'd go first overall over.
Is that like if you told a GM that he could draft a forward that also wasn't the biggest gamebreakers but wouldn't miss many games and would average about 40 goals a season for 19 seasons, that he should draft such a player very highly?

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09-02-2013, 07:34 AM
  #104
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Generational Player

He was a generational player as stated up thread but not a generational talent like a Bobby Orr, Wayne Gretzky or other players who defined and revolutionized how the game was played from their generation going forward.

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09-02-2013, 07:50 AM
  #105
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Originally Posted by RedWingsNow View Post
Big surprise. Hart voters select point scorers.
How many times did Jagr win the cup in those Hart seasons?
You win a Cup as a team, the seasons Jagr was nominated for the Hart, his teams had no business competing for the Cup let alone sometimes making the playoffs yet he helped upset the 1st seed Devils and 2nd seed Capitals in back-to-back playoff runs.

As for the Cup argument, did you know that in 2 of Fedorov's 4 20 + Pts playoffs, he was under PPG?

Forsberg was under PPG in his first Cup win as well.

Just look at the 2005-06 season, Jagr won the Pearson and was a very close 2nd in Hart (many think he should have beaten Thornton) and the Rangers had a 1st round matchup with the Devils. Jagr got injured in the first game (a should injury that would require surgery in the offseason and an injury that would make Jagr struggle for the first half of 2006-07) and his team got swept. He does have 3 games as a credit to him in that 4 game sweep but he played less 20 minutes combined in those 3 games as he was injured.


Outside of his first 4 seasons in the NHL, Jagr has never played on stacked teams such as Sakic, Forsberg, Fedorov and Yzerman played on.

Just go look at the Penguins 1997-98, 1998-99 and 1999-00 rosters (Jagr's 3 best seasons) and then compare them to the Red Wings and Avalanche teams that won Cups and you tell me what is wrong with that comparison.

Fedorov and Forsberg weren't even the top centermen on their teams, Sakic and and Yzerman were.

I'm looking at the 1999-00 Penguins roster and I see Jagr with 96 Pts in 63 games and then I see Kovalev with 66 Pts in 82 games (2nd in team scoring), J-S Aubin, Kasparitis, Straka, Titov, Hrdina, Beranek and I'm shaking in my pants.

I look at the Red Wings, I see Lidstrom, Yzerman, Fedorov, Shanahan, Maltby, Draper, Osgoode, Vernon, Murphy, or even better yet the later Cup team with Hull and Robitaille added to the team and I'm saying to myself, piece of cake, this is one weak team outside of the Great Fedorov.

Should I bring up who Forsberg played with? Lets just start with Roy and Sakic....


Last edited by livewell68: 09-02-2013 at 07:57 AM.
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09-02-2013, 07:59 AM
  #106
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Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
He was a generational player as stated up thread but not a generational talent like a Bobby Orr, Wayne Gretzky or other players who defined and revolutionized how the game was played from their generation going forward.
I would say the list of generational players is a bit larger than the list of generational talents.

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09-02-2013, 08:51 AM
  #107
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Some of the arguments here smack of desperation. Generational talent gets a noun-tweak into generational player, and the intent seems to be simply to bestow upon Lidstrom some timeless honorific ("generational player!") that separates him from the pack for all eternity. What the Hell?

Lidstrom was an excellent player. He will be a first-ballot Hall of Famer. He joins a small group of defensemen whose status as an all-time great is secure. This is all good and deserved. But please, know when to stop, or at least allow some reasonable length of post-retirement time to elapse before enshrining him into some mystical "Hall of Sublime and Mysterious Greatness." The real Hall's waiting period exists for this very reason, and in 4 more years those who saw him play will have a chance to speak to his greatness.

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09-02-2013, 08:59 AM
  #108
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Did anyone REALLY think Pronger was better than Jagr? Or did he just win a Hart Trophy by a single vote because Jagr missed almost 1/4 of the season?
I thought Pronger was the best player in the league until he was the one to miss time in 2001 and 2007.

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09-02-2013, 08:59 AM
  #109
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Originally Posted by feffan View Post
And to add, I don´t think there´s any generational talent in the NHL today. You have a group of elite players with Malkin, Ovechking, Crosby and a couple more who on any given night are even. None of them seperate themselves from the pack as I would expect from a generational talent.
I think generational talents are only going to become more infrequent as parity increases and there's less separation between top-six and bottom-six players. Improvements in training, diets, orthopedics, systems, goalies, and an expanding talent pool to draw from make it that much more difficult to separate yourself from the pack.

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09-02-2013, 09:03 AM
  #110
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Originally Posted by quoipourquoi View Post
I thought Pronger was the best player in the league until he was the one to miss time in 2001 and 2007.
Pronger better than Crosby in 2007 and Sakic in 2001? Really?

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09-02-2013, 09:07 AM
  #111
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Originally Posted by quoipourquoi View Post
I thought Pronger was the best player in the league until he was the one to miss time in 2001 and 2007.
Pronger was a great player and was deserving of the Norris trophy in 1999-00 but the Hart should have gone to Jagr. Pronger also played on a great team along with another Norris player in MacInnis.

For all of Pronger's shut down abilities and pension to dominate players physically, he was also a hot head that would sometimes take stupid penalties that would cost his team. His offense was also limited compared to Lidstrom.

In short, neither was the game's best offensive defenseman but overall Lidstrom gets the edge even in terms of peak.

Pronger did however have some great playoff runs, namely when he was with Edmonton and then later with Philadelphia.

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09-02-2013, 09:09 AM
  #112
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Originally Posted by Epsilon View Post
Pronger better than Crosby in 2007 and Sakic in 2001? Really?
Yes. I mean, maybe he would have declined from January to April naturally, but as of the time of his injuries, he sure looked like he was going to be MVP.

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09-02-2013, 09:15 AM
  #113
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Great player obviously but he wouldn't have won many cups if he was the lone star on his teams like Bure or Sundin. Guy had some decent help alright. And was he ever even close to a Hart Trophy or Lester B. Pearson?

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09-02-2013, 09:17 AM
  #114
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Originally Posted by quoipourquoi View Post
Yes. I mean, maybe he would have declined from January to April naturally, but as of the time of his injuries, he sure looked like he was going to be MVP.
Is there any data/references to support that (mid-season MVP rankings from publications, etc.)? At least with 2006-07 I seem to recall it was "Crosby's year" pretty much from the get-go, with a bit of a counter-current of support for Luongo building right at the end as the "not Crosby" option (which obviously didn't materialize into a serious challenge).

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09-02-2013, 09:26 AM
  #115
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So Lidstrom spends his entire career with the Winnipeg Jets/Phoenix Coyotes

How much does that chance how Lidstrom is viewed?

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09-02-2013, 09:36 AM
  #116
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Originally Posted by Epsilon View Post
Is there any data/references to support that (mid-season MVP rankings from publications, etc.)? At least with 2006-07 I seem to recall it was "Crosby's year" pretty much from the get-go, with a bit of a counter-current of support for Luongo building right at the end as the "not Crosby" option (which obviously didn't materialize into a serious challenge).
Well I know Dater wrote an article backing Pronger in 2001 and that Pronger was on top of ESPN's Trophy Tracker in 2007. Not the best sources, but I'm on a cellphone and I didn't think I'd be asked for sources to my own opinion (Dear Diary, Chris Pronger is really good again). Both of those teams were in first until his injury, so I don't think this is crazy talk. And I want to say it was Jagr leading the scoring race until Crosby's 6-point game, and that was about a week before Pronger broke his foot, so "Crosby for MVP" wasn't etched into stone or anything.

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09-02-2013, 09:44 AM
  #117
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Originally Posted by quoipourquoi View Post
Well I know Dater wrote an article backing Pronger in 2001 and that Pronger was on top of ESPN's Trophy Tracker in 2007. Not the best sources, but I'm on a cellphone and I didn't think I'd be asked for sources to my own opinion (Dear Diary, Chris Pronger is really good again). Both of those teams were in first until his injury, so I don't think this is crazy talk. And I want to say it was Jagr leading the scoring race until Crosby's 6-point game, and that was about a week before Pronger broke his foot, so "Crosby for MVP" wasn't etched into stone or anything.
To be clear, I'm not asking your to source your own opinion, but when you say "he sure looked like he was going to be MVP" that seems to indicate more than just a personal opinion but rather a view of how the field was broadly perceived at the time (apologies if you did not mean for it to come off that way and I am reading more into it than should be there).

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09-02-2013, 09:50 AM
  #118
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I've posted sources for Pronger's 2007 season before. After looking them up, here they are.

Rob Tychkowski, Edmonton Sun - January 27, 2007:
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MOST VALUABLE PRONGER: With Chris Pronger, the Edmonton Oilers go to the Cup final. Without him, they might not make the playoffs. With him, Anaheim rockets to first overall. Without him they win two of 11 games. That's a pretty good case for the Hart Trophy ...
Kevin Allen, USA Today, January 23, 2007:
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In most seasons, the NHL has two or three clear-cut candidates for MVP emerging at the All-Star break. This season, the field is too crowded to count on two hands. USA TODAY, on this page and the next, profiles 12 players and suggests a few others who might walk away with the Hart Trophy as the most valuable player to his team. All but injured Calgary Flames winger Jarome Iginla and Anaheim Ducks defenseman Chris Pronger were named to the All-Star Game.
Quote:
While grousing about losing three out of four games early this month, Anaheim Ducks general manager Brian Burke offered more evidence that 6-6 defenseman Chris Pronger might be the NHL's most indispensable player.

"We had three one-goal losses, and it wasn't our goaltending," Burke lamented. "It was because our power play struggled after we lost our big stork back there."

The Ducks are still an elite team without Pronger, who broke his foot Dec. 31, but not the near-invincible team they were earlier this season when he was playing some of the best hockey of his career.

"This guy may be the best first passer in the game today," Burke says. "He comes around that net, he looks up and boom, the puck is out of the zone with authority.... And if he has two options, he always goes with the best option."

Pronger has long been a multiple-tool player, a luxury model that comes with the options of intimidation, mobility and offensive savvy. His style is a fit for Anaheim's offensive flow.

"He skates like a great blue heron with those great big strides," Burke says. "They don't look like they are going very fast, and you look up and they have moved a great distance because of the length of the stride."
Eric Duhatchek, Globe and Mail, Jan 10, 2007:
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If, for example, Chris Pronger lost his place in the starting line-up to Fitzpatrick, you can't convince that he would lose a lot of sleep over it. Oh that's right. Pronger, a certifiable MVP candidate in the first half of the season, didn't get chosen anyway. I'd be interested in knowing if he was upset when he heard about the snub, or largely indifferent. Knowing him, I suspect the latter.
Pierre Lebrun, Canadian Press, Jan 6, 2007:

Quote:
CP writers Neil Stevens, Bill Beacon, Jim Morris, Pierre LeBrun and Chris Johnston put their heads together and handed out the halfway hardware Friday:

Hart Trophy (MVP): Crosby got four of the five votes, with Anaheim defenceman Chris Pronger also getting one. Honourable mention, aside from Pronger, also goes to Calgary's Jarome Iginla and Atlanta's Marian Hossa.

But really, where would the Penguins be without Crosby? When he's not on the scoresheet, the Penguins don't win. Can't be much more valuable than that.

Norris Trophy (Top defenceman): Pronger was nearly the unanimous choice, getting four votes with four-time Norris winner Nicklas Lidstrom of Detroit getting the other. Before suffering a broken foot during the holidays, Pronger was putting together a superb campaign. He still leads all NHL defencemen with 40 points (7-33) in 41 games while sporting a plus-21 rating.
Rick Sadowski, Rocky Mountain News, Jan 5, 2007:
Quote:
Most NHL teams will reach the halfway point in their schedules this weekend, so it's time to hand out some midseason awards.

Hart Trophy (Most Valuable Player): Martin Brodeur, New Jersey. The Devils certainly wouldn't be leading the Atlantic Division without Brodeur, not with a popgun offense that has produced the second-fewest goals in the Eastern Conference. Brodeur leads the league with six shutouts, is second in goals-against average (2.13) and third in saves percentage (.925).

In the running: Sidney Crosby, Pittsburgh; Marian Hossa, Atlanta; Jarome Iginla, Calgary; Jaromir Jagr, New York Rangers; Chris Pronger, Anaheim.

Norris Trophy (Defenseman): Pronger. He has been even better than the Ducks could have hoped when they acquired him from Edmonton in the offseason. Currently sidelined because of a broken left foot, the 6-foot-6 Pronger is an intimidating presence at both ends of the ice and has been just a hair better than teammate Scott Niedermayer.

In the running: Brian Campbell, Buffalo; Nicklas Lidstrom, Detroit; Niedermayer; Sheldon Souray, Montreal; Kimmo Timonen, Nashville.

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09-02-2013, 09:51 AM
  #119
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Originally Posted by RedWingsNow View Post
So Lidstrom spends his entire career with the Winnipeg Jets/Phoenix Coyotes

How much does that chance how Lidstrom is viewed?
Well, he gets more attention sooner, but he doesn't have his down years masqueraded by four Selke winners and powerplay offense. He also doesn't get the reputation of a "winner." Still viewed as a top-ten all-time defenseman, but probably on the level of a Chris Chelios. And the Red Wings, of course, win less. Probably a similar effect to taking Brodeur off of the Devils. Both the players and the teams benefitted so much from the partnership, so it's hard to separate them in a hypothetical.

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09-02-2013, 09:52 AM
  #120
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Is there any data/references to support that (mid-season MVP rankings from publications, etc.)? At least with 2006-07 I seem to recall it was "Crosby's year" pretty much from the get-go, with a bit of a counter-current of support for Luongo building right at the end as the "not Crosby" option (which obviously didn't materialize into a serious challenge).
Not necessarily true. Look at the half way mark and see who was leading the league in points, it was Jagr.

As for the clear cut best player, there was times that season where Thornton and Lecavalier were being called the best player in the NHL. I don't ever recall Pronger being in the discussion.

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09-02-2013, 10:01 AM
  #121
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Not necessarily true. Look at the half way mark and see who was leading the league in points, it was Jagr.

As for the clear cut best player, there was times that season where Thornton and Lecavalier were being called the best player in the NHL. I don't ever recall Pronger being in the discussion.
I was referring more to the media narrative rather than the scoring race itself. Maybe I'm just remembering things a bit poorly, but it felt like when that season started the media were itching to anoint Crosby as the best player in the NHL as soon as possible. THN ranked him 1st on the Top 50 list, didn't they?

Thanks for the links overpass.

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09-02-2013, 10:07 AM
  #122
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Not a generational talent, but a generational player.

Kindof like the old adage saying "it's not size that matters, it's what you do with it".

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09-02-2013, 10:20 AM
  #123
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Setting aside the vacuousness of the "generational talent/player" designations to begin with, a lot of the answer to this question ultimately comes down to what one considers a "talent". Lidstrom had one of the highest hockey IQs of all-time, maybe the single best in the period between Gretzky (previous "generation") and Crosby (subsequent 'generation"). Is that a "talent", or does "talent" really mean "physical talent"?

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09-02-2013, 10:33 AM
  #124
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Originally Posted by Epsilon View Post
Setting aside the vacuousness of the "generational talent/player" designations to begin with, a lot of the answer to this question ultimately comes down to what one considers a "talent". Lidstrom had one of the highest hockey IQs of all-time, maybe the single best in the period between Gretzky (previous "generation") and Crosby (subsequent 'generation"). Is that a "talent", or does "talent" really mean "physical talent"?
You start with
Quote:
Setting aside the vacuousness of the "generational talent/player" designations to begin with
and proceed to
Quote:
Lidstrom had one of the highest hockey IQs of all-time

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09-02-2013, 10:41 AM
  #125
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You start with


and proceed to
I'm not sure what your point is. There's at least some general agreement as to what "hockey IQ" means from a qualitative perspective. Whereas "generational whatever" always degenerates into little more than a semantic argument because no one will even agree to a uniform definition of "generational" despite the fact that it should clearly indicate some fixed interval of time.

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