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Can this Team as built go farther than 11-12

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Old
09-02-2013, 06:04 PM
  #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eco's bones View Post
Nash is the only legit 1st liner on the team--Stepan's knocking on the door. Hagelin is probably our best LW'er but to me he is a 2nd-3rd line tweener. IMO it's not as impressive as you're making out.
what's your definition of legit first liner? like Blue Blooded said, if your first line know each other well, have good qualities, and feed off each other's skill, they're good enough to be a first line. I'd take that Hagelin-Stepan-Nash line over Nash-Richards-Gaborik 10x out of 10. And those three are legitimate first liners, I guess.

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09-02-2013, 06:08 PM
  #52
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Originally Posted by Hockeyplayer99 View Post
Rangers won't be close to that team from 2 years ago. They lack any sort of toughness now. IN the playoffs you need grinders, guys who will play physical. We have none, we are to soft to go anywhere in the playoffs. As the rounds go on, the physical play becomes more and more evident. Even the Ice Capades have more physical play then the Rangers. Get some big bodies willing to take the hit and willing to throw hits and then we have a chance.
Yeah it's a damn shame we have guys that can hockey like Dominic Moore and Derek Dorsett in our bottom 6 instead of Mike Rupp and Stu Bickel who can only punch people . Rangers are a pretty physical group.........even though they have no heavy weights that can barely skate. We could use a big body to keep heavies away from taking liberties with the team but other than that leave the NO FIGHTING NO TOUGHNESS **** at the door.

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09-02-2013, 06:18 PM
  #53
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Originally Posted by Raspewtin View Post
what's your definition of legit first liner? like Blue Blooded said, if your first line know each other well, have good qualities, and feed off each other's skill, they're good enough to be a first line. I'd take that Hagelin-Stepan-Nash line over Nash-Richards-Gaborik 10x out of 10. And those three are legitimate first liners, I guess.
Personally, I'd want 2 legitimate first liners so you can separate them in a pinch. Right now, the Rangers have 1 and a half.

That Gaborik-Richards-Nash thing wound up being a disaster because Gaborik played out of position and didnt play like a first liner, and Richards simply didnt play like a 1st liner at any point in the season.

A first liner is like pornography - you know it when you see it.

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09-02-2013, 06:20 PM
  #54
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Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
Agreed.

But that de-facto first line is a minor worry compared to the next 6 spots at forward, which seem pretty messy.

Defense and goaltending look good though, as they have in recent years. How long until AV starts playing to his strengths as well?
I agree to an extent, but I feel like Torts could have gotten more out of our defensemen. This team has one of the best skating if not the best skating bluelines by committee in the league and sometimes it didn't seem like that. Hopefully AV will encourage the defensemen on this team to skate it out of the zone more.

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No they didn't.
Agree 100%. That bottom six was extremely overrated. I can't believe posters give this group so much credit when it comes to the 11-12 season.

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09-02-2013, 06:36 PM
  #55
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Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
A first liner is like pornography - you know it when you see it.
I'm going to need examples.

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09-02-2013, 07:09 PM
  #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Raspewtin View Post
Yeah it's a damn shame we have guys that can hockey like Dominic Moore and Derek Dorsett in our bottom 6 instead of Mike Rupp and Stu Bickel who can only punch people . Rangers are a pretty physical group.........even though they have no heavy weights that can barely skate. We could use a big body to keep heavies away from taking liberties with the team but other than that leave the NO FIGHTING NO TOUGHNESS **** at the door.
Another person who doesn't get it. A lot of fans here get confused when they see other posters say we need tougher players. Omg goon fhjdghhfg omg. No. Simply put, we want guys who are tough as nails, and can play the game.

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09-02-2013, 07:14 PM
  #57
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Originally Posted by Clowe Knows Best View Post
Another person who doesn't get it. A lot of fans here get confused when they see other posters say we need tougher players. Omg goon fhjdghhfg omg. No. Simply put, we want guys who are tough as nails, and can play the game.
Doesn't everybody?

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09-02-2013, 07:18 PM
  #58
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Originally Posted by Hockeyplayer99 View Post
Rangers won't be close to that team from 2 years ago. They lack any sort of toughness now. IN the playoffs you need grinders, guys who will play physical. We have none, we are to soft to go anywhere in the playoffs. As the rounds go on, the physical play becomes more and more evident. Even the Ice Capades have more physical play then the Rangers. Get some big bodies willing to take the hit and willing to throw hits and then we have a chance.

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09-02-2013, 08:21 PM
  #59
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A quick comparison of 11-12 to Today

Forward Depth 11-12>>>>>>>Forward Depth Today
Gaborik >>>>>>> Nash
Richards>>>>>>> Richards

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09-02-2013, 08:27 PM
  #60
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Originally Posted by Raspewtin View Post
I don't, it was more of a prediction. And come on, who here actually thinks the 11-12 team was deep? Feds, Mitchell, Prust, Boyle, Rupp, and Dubinsky/Anisimov is not a good bottom 6 by any means. This year's blows them out of the water in terms of bottom 6.
And that's where chemistry comes in--the parts add up to more than they should. The 11-12 team played very well together. You can have lots of talent and no chemistry and then you have a crappy team.

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09-02-2013, 08:27 PM
  #61
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Originally Posted by Raspewtin View Post
what's your definition of legit first liner? like Blue Blooded said, if your first line know each other well, have good qualities, and feed off each other's skill, they're good enough to be a first line. I'd take that Hagelin-Stepan-Nash line over Nash-Richards-Gaborik 10x out of 10. And those three are legitimate first liners, I guess.
A legit 1st liner is a potential scoring threat every time he's on the ice. He's a guy other teams know that they're going to have to track all game long. Basically he's a guy who over the course of a season has a reasonable chance of putting 30 pucks in the net or setting up 40-50 pucks into the net while scoring 20 to 30 himself. So let's start off with he's capable of 60 points anyway. Now there's plenty of players on top lines around the league who aren't going to do that but they're on their top lines as I would see it by default basically because their respective teams have no one better. ****--if we didn't have Nash Callahan would be our top RW. A very good player--calling him a 1st liner?--No. So Hagelin might play on the 1st line a lot--he's not a legit 1st liner. He's only going to be there because we have no one better.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
Personally, I'd want 2 legitimate first liners so you can separate them in a pinch. Right now, the Rangers have 1 and a half.

That Gaborik-Richards-Nash thing wound up being a disaster because Gaborik played out of position and didnt play like a first liner, and Richards simply didnt play like a 1st liner at any point in the season.

A first liner is like pornography - you know it when you see it.
That last line is priceless.

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09-02-2013, 10:54 PM
  #62
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Originally Posted by Hockeyplayer99 View Post
Rangers won't be close to that team from 2 years ago. They lack any sort of toughness now. IN the playoffs you need grinders, guys who will play physical. We have none, we are to soft to go anywhere in the playoffs. As the rounds go on, the physical play becomes more and more evident. Even the Ice Capades have more physical play then the Rangers. Get some big bodies willing to take the hit and willing to throw hits and then we have a chance.
I agree,I think if your going to ice a top 9 as soft as we have then you have to ice some grit on the back end to prevent your best players from being run. Unfortunately, despite being a talented group our d are relatively soft on the whole. To disregard the contributions our bottom 6 of 11/12 made is plain ignorant. Intangibles matter, its a sad state when nash is in constant scrums while the d watches. Toughness is the main difference between the teams and the main reason we regressed imo.

We have some exciting kids coming up so maybe they render some other players expendable. This is a good coaching staff, theres a lot to be optimistic about and im sure they will address the current deficiencies in our lineup.

In the event that the inevitable debate on what constitutes toughness ensues, I would submit the following: Toughness=willingness to stick up for yourself or your teammates. Pain Tolerant= human puck sponge and not to be confused with toughness. Until such a time comes where players dont physically impose there will on other players, toughness will always play a major role in the game imo. An impotent pp only serves to exacerbate the problem.

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09-02-2013, 10:55 PM
  #63
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Doubtful. Everything went right that year. Well, almost everything. I like the team we have, a lot. But I have no idea where they're gonna finish next year, but I would bet on a) not having home ice in the playoffs, and b) not making it past round 2 again, if I had to bet. I would be shocked to see us miss the playoffs or make it to the Finals.

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09-02-2013, 11:27 PM
  #64
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Originally Posted by free0717 View Post
Can't help it. 6'3" tall, 230# all muscle. Fastest player in the league. Laser beam shot.

I believe he gets it and scores 20+ this year.
That would be Jesper...

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09-03-2013, 06:42 AM
  #65
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Talent and depth win out in the end. The Hawks weren't a big and physical team. Their top guys were in and out in the playoffs. Boston lost Campbell to the broken leg and all of their lines were screwed up. The big and physical team lost to Chicago. LA lost too. Detroit gave the Hawks the most difficulty. Those teams are built in the same manner. Hard working skill guys.

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09-03-2013, 09:15 AM
  #66
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The bottom 6 in 2011-12 knew their roles - they could play defense, were tough, and could chip in offensively every now and then. The 4th line was problematic due to their lack of skating ability and it was exposed in the playoffs.

I have some concerns about this year's 3rd line - we could potentially see a 3rd line with some combination of Richards/Brassard, Zuke, Pouliout, maybe Kreider depending on how he plays. These are not prototypical 3rd liners and they are at risk of getting outmuscled and pinned in their own zone.

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09-03-2013, 10:15 AM
  #67
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Originally Posted by OverTheCap View Post
The bottom 6 in 2011-12 knew their roles - they could play defense, were tough, and could chip in offensively every now and then. The 4th line was problematic due to their lack of skating ability and it was exposed in the playoffs.

I have some concerns about this year's 3rd line - we could potentially see a 3rd line with some combination of Richards/Brassard, Zuke, Pouliout, maybe Kreider depending on how he plays. These are not prototypical 3rd liners and they are at risk of getting outmuscled and pinned in their own zone.
They can be a sheltered offensive third line that will get a lot of offensive zone starts. A line of Hagelin-Stepan-Callahan can do a lot of defensive zone starts. That line is not only good in the defensive zone, but they are also good at bringing the puck up ice.

Tbh I really don't like the whole "prototypical 3rd line" mentality. I understand board play, blocking shots, and so on is important, but you need more offensive contributions from the bottom six especially when you lack top end talent like the Rangers. IMO the biggest factor that did this team in the 2012 and 2013 playoffs was the lack of scoring depth. In the playoffs you face better teams and your best guys get tougher matchups. Also injuries happen. Yea I know guys likes Boyle, Pyatt, and Fedotenko made significant contributions, but for only short periods in the playoffs. The fourth line produced almost nothing, while the fourth lines of the Devils and Bruins essentially won them series. Lastly the defensive play of guys like Richards, Brassard, Pouliout, Kreider, and Zucc is underrated and the defensive play of guys like Boyle, Pyatt, Mitchell, Prust, and Fedetenko is pretty overrated. The former group has players with good skating, hockey sense, and hands. It's not just in the other team's zone that those things are useful. Of course they lack grit and it's good to have both that and other skills, but those players tend to get top 6 minutes and pay. Rangers don't have that much cap space so they need to employ one dimensional players. I prefer the ones that can do more in the offensive zone than the ones with more grit, but are inferior skaters, passers, etc. As RangerBoy said you don't need that much toughness to win the Stanley Cup.

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09-03-2013, 10:17 AM
  #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OverTheCap View Post
The bottom 6 in 2011-12 knew their roles - they could play defense, were tough, and could chip in offensively every now and then. The 4th line was problematic due to their lack of skating ability and it was exposed in the playoffs.

I have some concerns about this year's 3rd line - we could potentially see a 3rd line with some combination of Richards/Brassard, Zuke, Pouliout, maybe Kreider depending on how he plays. These are not prototypical 3rd liners and they are at risk of getting outmuscled and pinned in their own zone.
People have a serious misremembering of that aspect of the 11-12 team. The group was marginally better than our bottom-6 last year, but in a similar fashion, they didn't really have a 3rd line. Knew their roles? Of course they knew their roles. They all played the role that a 4th line should play. During the Nash discussion, people were looking forward to Nash pushing players who should be 3rd liners down to the 3rd line and 4th liners down to the 4th line. That's because we didn't have a 3rd line. It also didn't work that way, since Anisimov's hole had to be plugged.

They chipped in offensively every now and then? The word you should have used was "rarely," at least as the season wore on.

As for this coming year's 3rd line, the one thing that will set it apart from previous year's is a larger amount of offensive ability. The question is whether that will translate. If the model of forward depth that exists on the Bruins is the kind of team we're looking to have, albeit with a slightly different makeup, then you're looking at a Bruins team that in 11-12 had 9 forwards with 30 points or more and in 2013 had 8 players with 17 points or more (which prorates to 30 points over 82 games), plus the acquisition of Jagr. In comparison, the 11-12 Rangers had 7 forwards with 30 points or more and 6 players with 17 points or more, plus the acquisition of Clowe.

The game we want to see from our team is one in which we aren't so frustrated offensively. It doesn't necessarily have to be a very high scoring team, just not an inept one. In lieu of having multiple superstar offensive players, a la Chicago or Pittsburgh, it's going to have to be through depth. The 11-12 team was at it's best when the depth was performing, but they didn't have the talent to sustain that performance. This year's team is better set up to do so.

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09-03-2013, 10:33 AM
  #69
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This year's team is better set up to do so.
What I mean by that is this:

This year's roster has 8 forwards who have averaged 30 points or more per 82 games over the last 5 seasons played. They are Nash, Stepan, Richards, Callahan, Brassard, Hagelin, Pouliot, and Moore. Add in Zuccarello and Kreider, and we have 10 forwards with that potential. Of course, things don't always work out perfectly, but we are talking about stats on paper right now.

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09-03-2013, 10:49 AM
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In response to the posts above, we better hope that the 3rd line can produce offensively this year, because if they don't, they really don't bring much to the table. And, as Crease mentioned in another thread, in addition to scoring more, the team will also need to maintain their goals against to be in line with the previous Cup winners, so they really can't give up much in terms of defense.

I'm hardpressed to think of a Stanley Cup winning team that had a 3rd line that contained no two-way players. Teams like Chicago and Boston succeeded not only because they were talented, but because they had multidimensional players who could contribute when they weren't scoring.

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09-03-2013, 10:53 AM
  #71
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In response to the posts above, we better hope that the 3rd line can produce offensively this year, because if they don't, they really don't bring much to the table. And, as Crease mentioned in another thread, in addition to scoring more, the team will also need to maintain their goals against to be in line with the previous Cup winners, so they really can't give up much in terms of defense.

I'm hardpressed to think of a Stanley Cup winning team that had a 3rd line that contained no two-way players. Teams like Chicago and Boston succeeded not only because they were talented, but because they had multidimensional players who could contribute when they weren't scoring.
I think as the season wears on, we're likely to see more of Moore in the 3rd line C role, provided that he is the same player he was before his hiatus from the game. Also, those are just the players that have done it before. I wouldn't be surprised to see one or two of Miller, Lindberg or Kristo knock someone off the 3rd line.

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09-03-2013, 11:09 AM
  #72
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I think as the season wears on, we're likely to see more of Moore in the 3rd line C role, provided that he is the same player he was before his hiatus from the game. Also, those are just the players that have done it before. I wouldn't be surprised to see one or two of Miller, Lindberg or Kristo knock someone off the 3rd line.
If he plays well this year, Moore should certainly get a shot on the 3rd line, as he can add some defensive stability there.

I think we will see all kinds of combinations at 3rd line. Bringing Richards back kind of threw a wrench into the mix, as Brassard and Richards aren't really 3rd line players but one of them will be the odd man out and have to play on the 3rd line. AV will have some difficult decisions to make this year, especially if Richards gets outplayed by one of the younger guys.

Ideally, I'd rather have 3rd liners in the Bolland/Bickell mold rather than someone like Boyle, who has the size and defensive attributes but can't score, or Richards, who can contribute offensively (or at least used to) but is lousy defensively. But we will just have to make do with what we have and hope it works.

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09-03-2013, 11:13 AM
  #73
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If he plays well this year, Moore should certainly get a shot on the 3rd line, as he can add some defensive stability there.

I think we will see all kinds of combinations at 3rd line. Bringing Richards back kind of threw a wrench into the mix, as Brassard and Richards aren't really 3rd line players but one of them will be the odd man out and have to play on the 3rd line. AV will have some difficult decisions to make this year, especially if Richards gets outplayed by one of the younger guys.

Ideally, I'd rather have 3rd liners in the Bolland/Bickell mold rather than someone like Boyle, who has the size and defensive attributes but can't score, or Richards, who can contribute offensively (or at least used to) but is lousy defensively. But we will just have to make do with what we have and hope it works.
Agree, but they tend to get overpaid. Usually it's better to develop your own. We have a few prospects that hopefully can become players in that mold.

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09-03-2013, 11:51 AM
  #74
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Dominic Moore is a player who teams look to add at the trading deadline for a 2nd round pick. He was a key player in the Montreal and Tampa Bay runs to the ECF in back to back years. Moore can be a little chippy too.



Moore got a $2,500 fine. Fedotenko got concussed.

Derek Dorsett is a better player than he showed after returning from the broken clavicle.

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09-03-2013, 11:58 AM
  #75
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Agree, but they tend to get overpaid. Usually it's better to develop your own. We have a few prospects that hopefully can become players in that mold.
Who?

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