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Old
09-03-2013, 09:11 PM
  #1
JHabs
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Critical Thinking



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When Chris Pronger’s career was effectively ended in November of 2011, the Flyers were scrambling a bit. They utilized two unheralded rookies in Marc-Andre Bourdon and Kevin Marshall, and asked for bigger contributions from existing vets like Kimmo Timonen, Brayden Coburn and Matt Carle. But by February, Bourdon was struggling with the effects of a series of concussions and Marshall had been exposed as a limited player at the NHL level. Paul Holmgren made a pair of moves to add depth to his defense.

He traded draft picks to the Dallas Stars for veteran, stay at home defenseman Nicklas Grossmann. Shortly thereafter, he moved more picks to the Tampa Bay Lightning for a fading Pavel Kubina. Both players were upcoming UFA’s in the summer of 2012, as was Carle.

Grossmann played solidly in a shutdown pair with Coburn, who had signed a 4 year extension in November, just before Pronger was lost to the after effects of his eye injury and concussion symptoms. Kubina was basically just a fill in, as the former top pair minute eater was clearly no longer a twenty minute a night guy that played in all situations.
Read the full story

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Old
09-03-2013, 09:28 PM
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FlyersFan61290
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Had the Flyers rewarded the guy who stepped up and was already in house, rather than signing the guy that just came into town, the circus from last summer might have been avoided…and maybe having Carle’s skillset last season means a playoff berth, rather than a lottery pick.


thanks for that!

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Old
09-03-2013, 09:32 PM
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Beef Invictus
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Haha...unless Carle's skillset includes goaltending, no.

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09-03-2013, 09:32 PM
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Yup. Carle was the reason we missed out on the playoffs. I mean just look at how far Tampa made it with him. I read Tampa's board last year and their fans are complaining about the very same things we were. Matt Carle supporters are the worst. Nothing will ever beat that article from BSH that tried convincing us that he is as good as Suter. Pure hilarity.

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Old
09-03-2013, 09:34 PM
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I predict a lot of this going on in here :

I'll just say I don't agree with the author's opinion when it comes to Carle & leave it at that. Carle & Streit are both signed to terrible contracts so I would have been angry either way.

I didn't mind the gambles for Suter & Weber even if the chances were very little of us landing them. Going back to that time & not using benefit of hindsight like most do, I would do it all over again.

I just hope the Flyers continue to draft defensemen (8 in the last two drafts) as its really the only way to land impact defensemen in today's salary cap era.

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Old
09-03-2013, 09:43 PM
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LegionOfDoom91
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
Haha...unless Carle's skillset includes goaltending, no.
I didn't know Matt Carle practiced medicine in his free time also.


Last edited by LegionOfDoom91: 09-03-2013 at 09:54 PM.
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Old
09-03-2013, 09:45 PM
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....Where's the critical thinking part? I feel misled

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Old
09-03-2013, 09:48 PM
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The Couturier Effect
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While I do think Carle's absence hurt the team, I don't think having him would've put us too much closer to the playoffs.

EDIT: I also think a lot of his success came from being paired with Pronger.


Last edited by The Couturier Effect: 09-03-2013 at 09:56 PM.
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Old
09-03-2013, 10:47 PM
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Carle is garbage. I was just watching a video from the Flyers-Pens playoff series and I was just laughing at how bad Carle was.

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Old
09-03-2013, 10:55 PM
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BrindamoursNose
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I don't understand what the article is trying to say?

I'd rather have had the down year/top pick any way. Our core group is very young. Carle isn't a #1 and will never be. I'm fine with letting him go.

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09-03-2013, 10:59 PM
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BrimFullofAsham45
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Discussions about Carle have been beaten to death, for sure. Does he have NHL level skills, yes. Do I want him on my team... No.

When the Flyers made it to the SCF, Carle was a No. 4 defenseman under the condition that he played alongside a future hall of famer.

There is no place on a cup contending team in the cap world for a defenseman who is (a) an offensive defenseman who has a horrible shot and useless on the PP, (b) has questionable d-zone coverage, and (c) is deathly allergic to physical play.

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Old
09-04-2013, 12:50 AM
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As my son would say, epic fail.

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Old
09-04-2013, 08:09 AM
  #13
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stop the drivel.


Last edited by MiamiScreamingEagles: 09-04-2013 at 09:22 AM. Reason: Site rule #16
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Old
09-04-2013, 08:34 AM
  #14
BrindamoursNose
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Get back to the drawing board. Articles like this won't work for Flyers fans.

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Old
09-04-2013, 08:46 AM
  #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BrindamoursNose View Post
I don't understand what the article is trying to say?

I'd rather have had the down year/top pick any way. Our core group is very young. Carle isn't a #1 and will never be. I'm fine with letting him go.
I think the point was that the team could've just signed Carle for the money that the team signed Streit for (maybe for a year or two more in length but if he got a 5 year contract it would end the same time as Streit's contract does) and the defense could've been in a better position last year.

I think it is interesting to think about as Streit apparently isn't so great defensively and there is the possibility of him declining over the next few years, and if that happens it will be hard to trade him (though the team can hold on to some of his cap hit). I don't recall if signing Carle last season would've gotten in the way of re-signing anyone or not. Taking Streit's contract in mind I might not have minded re-signing Carle, though Streit will likely bring more offense than Carle would have. However, I'm not particularly upset about it either, maybe Streit won't turn out well but at this point I'm fine with the team's roster.

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Old
09-04-2013, 09:19 AM
  #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
Haha...unless Carle's skillset includes goaltending, no.
Those weak wrists rule out any kind of strong glove side.

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Old
09-04-2013, 09:26 AM
  #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ilovetheflyers8 View Post
I think the point was that the team could've just signed Carle for the money that the team signed Streit for (maybe for a year or two more in length but if he got a 5 year contract it would end the same time as Streit's contract does) and the defense could've been in a better position last year.

I think it is interesting to think about as Streit apparently isn't so great defensively and there is the possibility of him declining over the next few years, and if that happens it will be hard to trade him (though the team can hold on to some of his cap hit). I don't recall if signing Carle last season would've gotten in the way of re-signing anyone or not. Taking Streit's contract in mind I might not have minded re-signing Carle, though Streit will likely bring more offense than Carle would have. However, I'm not particularly upset about it either, maybe Streit won't turn out well but at this point I'm fine with the team's roster.
Yeah that is pretty much what I think the point is. As others have pointed out ..this argument has gone full circle and the same people seem to agree to disagree. Having said this I still say allowing Carle to go on the open market which drove up his cost in money and term (the latter being the worst) and then trying to fill the obvious void with the three stooges of Gervais, Huskins and Foster was a really dumb miscalc and did effect the team especially when you have Lavi saying they lacked puck movers last year in a recent Q&A with Panaccio.

Getting Streit was basically Holmgren's way of righting a wrong, which he is synonymous for doing, but it remains to be seen how much more effective he'll be all around compared to Carle. Streit's contract is not exactly great and especially the term. Yeah maybe he doesn't have a lot of wear on his body but his age is still his age. This is a similar argument we heard with Pronger when he was acquired about how well he took care of his body but it didn't take long for Pronger to start experiencing all sorts of injuries after his first season (knee, back, wrist, etc) and of course his unfortunate career ending injury. Obviously, Prongs had tons of miles but again you reach a certain age (30's) and you are just more susceptible to stupid crappy injuries.

Anyway, the point is that Streit is essentially Carle's replacement and he was needed just as Carle was last season. You can argue that Carle wouldn't have made much of a difference last year but I'm not so sure about that. I'm sure Lavi if he didn't have to be PC would have said he was very important to his system. Same with Jagr...not like Knuble and Gagne were all that great as replacements especially when you had Hartnell, G and Voracek saying how much of a postive influence he was to them personally and the team.


BTW..here is the Q &A

Quote:
Laviolette wants to see more mobility, more offense move from his defense now that Mark Streit is here. We’ve already seen what a healthy and confident Erik Gustafsson can do in that regard, and Laviolette is hoping his progression will be aided by watching someone like Streit on the ice, who’s done it a long time in Europe and here.

http://www.csnphilly.com/hockey-phil...olette-learned


Last edited by FreshPerspective: 09-04-2013 at 09:32 AM.
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Old
09-04-2013, 11:27 AM
  #18
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Carle is only needed if we have a Pronger to pair him with. Not that great defensively because he can't handle strong competition, and the team scored at a lower rate when he was on the ice because he's easy to defend. And, he can't QB a PP. He has one dimension, a pass. That's not worth it for me.

Edit: He certainly did nothing to help TB's defensive problems. If anything, their fans describe him as part of the problem.

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09-04-2013, 11:55 AM
  #19
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Carle could never play goal..

he clearly hates being near other players..

if the crease got jammed, he'd bolt for the corner, or just try using that super lame stick poke move he does..

Carle getting the hell off this team is the second best move behind getting rid of space-cadet...

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Old
09-04-2013, 12:34 PM
  #20
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I guess that's why the Lightning snuck into the playoffs last year and Carle won the Norris

Oh wait

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Old
09-04-2013, 12:55 PM
  #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
Carle is only needed if we have a Pronger to pair him with. Not that great defensively because he can't handle strong competition, and the team scored at a lower rate when he was on the ice because he's easy to defend. And, he can't QB a PP. He has one dimension, a pass. That's not worth it for me.

Edit: He certainly did nothing to help TB's defensive problems. If anything, their fans describe him as part of the problem.
So you preferred the defense by committee of Gervais, Huskins and Foster to make up for Carle's minutes last season? You also believe Streit is a better option even if his D isn't exactly anything better than Carle and he is older and has a contract that is not that great either?

Whether or not you thought he wasn't worth signing in the long run (especially at market price that Tampa gave him) doesn't change the fact that he would have been far more effective at the least than that trifecta of fail last season...

Now if Streit matches or beats Carle this season and beyond which some may expect then this argument becomes a moot point of sorts.

Again..I was by far not his biggest fan either but I just don't understand the total hate for the dude so much so that people actually thought that those 3 losers we had to fill his void with were a better option..yeah maybe to miss the playoffs and assure us a high draft pick....that I will agree with.

BTW..as far as the Tampa fans lamentations..again that was based more on his pricey contract and terms that Tampa gave him..kind of similar to Bryz. He still was their minutes leader although some will say that was a problem in and of itself and maybe the coach getting fired attested to that......again I think Carle gets way too much scrutiny. He is a good player but yeah his market price that Holmgren allowed to happen ultimately made him not worth it but it did come at a cost to the Flyers last season at least despite what some people think...


Last edited by FreshPerspective: 09-04-2013 at 01:03 PM.
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Old
09-04-2013, 01:03 PM
  #22
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What's with the Carle/Streit comparison? Sure, both are average to below average defensively, but Streit has always been a much better offensive defenseman. Streit over Carle isn't a wash. In fact, it's an upgrade.

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Old
09-04-2013, 01:11 PM
  #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flyershockey View Post
What's with the Carle/Streit comparison? Sure, both are average to below average defensively, but Streit has always been a much better offensive defenseman. Streit over Carle isn't a wash. In fact, it's an upgrade.
The comparison is that they are both classified as PMD's......I agree Streit has more offensive prowess and should make our already good PP even better but he is not some defensive stalwart that is going to make us miss Carle and his boneheaded lapses either. And again I'm just saying that from last season's standpoint people saying he wouldn't have helped this team I think are wrong considering how terrible the team was last year on the transition..Lavi said as much and why he hopes with Streit they will be better (regain equilibrium). It remains to be seen how much better though. If Streit meets or exceeds expectations then again this will all be a moot point. If he is worse or almost the same as Carle then Holmgren's fix was just really a sideways move which necessary but only b/c he let go an asset for nothing in the first place when maybe he could have signed him to more palatable terms (Holmgren publically stated as much) considering they had tagging space at one point during the season per Meltzer...

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09-04-2013, 01:19 PM
  #24
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Originally Posted by OccupySouthBroadSt View Post
The comparison is that they are both classified as PMD's......I agree Streit has more offensive prowess and should make our already good PP even better but he is not some defensive stalwart that is going to make us miss Carle and his boneheaded lapses either. And again I'm just saying that from last season's standpoint people saying he wouldn't have helped this team I think are wrong considering how terrible the team was last year on the transition..Lavi said as much and why he hopes with Streit they will be better. It remains to be seen how much better though. If Streit meets or exceeds expectations then again this will all be a moot point. If he is worse or almost the same as Carle then Holmgren's fix was just really a sideways move which necessary but only b/c he let go an asset for nothing in the first place when maybe he could have signed him to more palatable terms (Holmgren publically stated as much) considering they had tagging space at one point during the season per Meltzer...
Carle would have certainly helped the transition game last year, but I'm not sure the marginal improvement would have been worth the cap hit. I'm not in love with the Streit signing, but I do think he'll have more of an impact on both the transition game and the powerplay than Carle would have provided. I actually think the rest of the defense is strong enough in their own zone to at least keep Streit respectable at 5 on 5.

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Old
09-04-2013, 01:23 PM
  #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flyershockey View Post
Carle would have certainly helped the transition game last year, but I'm not sure the marginal improvement would have been worth the cap hit. I'm not in love with the Streit signing, but I do think he'll have more of an impact on both the transition game and the powerplay than Carle would have provided. I actually think the rest of the defense is strong enough in their own zone to at least keep Streit respectable at 5 on 5.
Cool I respect your projection and I do hope it's the case..just need to keep things in perspective since really Streit was signed to help fill the Carle gap for all intents and purposes. I definitely want Streit to do much better than Carle and that includes both ends of the ice. Streit does at least add more leadership experience as well..so I'll add that intangible.

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