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Old
09-04-2013, 06:34 PM
  #26
HighLifeMan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Drew311 View Post
Gardiner at least had a full season as an effective top 4 defenseman, as a rookie none the less. He was also arguably the Leafs best defenseman in the playoffs. It was only 7 games, but proving himself on that type of stage against a top team is impressive.

Backlund has played twice as many games as Gardiner to prove himself as a top six forward in the NHL, and hasn't done so to date.

No chance the Leafs do this deal. Kadri and Franson will be signed to short term deals and will go into camp with 21 players if need be. Definitely no need to give up a top asset to get under the cap, they aren't that desperate.
And Mikael Backlund was the Flames best three zone player when he was healthy this season. I simply find it funny that some few Backlund as teetering on the edge of "bust" status, while Gardiner is a "top asset"

I don't like this trade for either side.

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Old
09-04-2013, 06:41 PM
  #27
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Backlund? Where does a project center fit when the Leafs have Kadri (he'll sign), Bozak, Bolland, McClement and Couborne?

Gardiner in the Leafs estimation has dominant puck moving defensman potential. He's basically an untouchable. He hasn't hit that potential so it's not like he carries that trade value but Gardiner and Reilly are the only two Leafs universally beloved in Leaf Nation. Settling for a lesser potential young player would be a let down.

Leafs have a lot of hope invested in Gardiner (and if you watched the guy play you'd understand), people seem to forget that when putting him in trade proposals.

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Old
09-04-2013, 06:59 PM
  #28
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Originally Posted by HighLifeMan View Post
...and what has Jake Gardiner proven at the NHL level for an extended period of time, Hudlinator?

In addition to that Gardiner is also only a year younger than he Backlund, so it's not exactly like there is a huge discrepancy here in terms of where these players are at in their development.

I pass on this trade from a Calgary standpoint. Taking on Liles while losing Backlund in the process is simply not worth it.
I never said Gardiner has ever proved anything but that doesn't make Backlund a top 6 player. Why does overselling one player mean we have to take shots at another player?

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Old
09-04-2013, 07:07 PM
  #29
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Originally Posted by blankall View Post
Backlund also appears to have pretty good chemistry with Sven. Backlund has really improved his defensive and physical games over the last few years as well. I'm partial to keeping him. Gardiner looks like Ian White Part 2 to me.

Right now, this deal is lopsided towards the Flames, but, in a year with no injuries and quality chances, Backlund has a solid chance of emerging as the better asset.
Its time to schedule an appointment with your optometrist.

No way are the leafs getting rid of Gardiner, especially if he's the most valuable asset in the trade. Leafs politely say no.

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09-04-2013, 07:36 PM
  #30
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Originally Posted by MVW View Post
To resign Kadri and Franson. Also, Backlund is a very good, young top 6 center. He looked fantastic last season.
Sorry, but there's no way Backlund and his career high 25 points is going to replace Bozak/Kadri/Bolland/McClement. Franson will be shipped out long before the Leafs even consider moving Gardiner, bad proposal OP.

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09-04-2013, 07:44 PM
  #31
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Originally Posted by Kulie View Post
Sorry, but there's no way Backlund and his career high 25 points is going to replace Bozak/Kadri/Bolland/McClement. Franson will be shipped out long before the Leafs even consider moving Gardiner, bad proposal OP.
Backlund scored at a .5PPG pace last season despite averaging 3rd line minutes on a dreadful team and dealing with injury.

I'm not going to argue with you about Kadri, as he had an unbelievable season. However, Backlund is already scoring at a much higher pace than McClemant. He outscored Bolland last year. He's also just behind Bozak's pace, despite getting far fewer minutes/opportunities.

Him having no chance of developing into a better player than someone like McClemant is absurd. He's already better.

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Old
09-04-2013, 08:46 PM
  #32
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Originally Posted by HighLifeMan View Post
And Mikael Backlund was the Flames best three zone player when he was healthy this season. I simply find it funny that some few Backlund as teetering on the edge of "bust" status, while Gardiner is a "top asset"

I don't like this trade for either side.
When did I use the term bust? I'm simply stating that Gardiner is the more proven player with the higher value. Until Backlund proves over a full season that he's a top 6 forward, Gardiner is the better player. Top 4 defenseman > bottom 6 forward.

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Old
09-04-2013, 08:57 PM
  #33
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Originally Posted by blankall View Post
Backlund scored at a .5PPG pace last season despite averaging 3rd line minutes on a dreadful team and dealing with injury.

I'm not going to argue with you about Kadri, as he had an unbelievable season. However, Backlund is already scoring at a much higher pace than McClemant. He outscored Bolland last year. He's also just behind Bozak's pace, despite getting far fewer minutes/opportunities.

Him having no chance of developing into a better player than someone like McClemant is absurd. He's already better.
I'm sorry, but I take McClement over Backlund at the moment. My opinion would change is Backlund puts up 50 points this season, but McClement is a premiere defensive forward in the league and the sole reason why the Leafs were a top penalty killing team last season. He's definitely a top 5 PK'er in the league, can put up 30 points a year and will play 80 games a season. Players like this don't grow on trees.

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Old
09-04-2013, 09:03 PM
  #34
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Originally Posted by TheHudlinator View Post
I never said Gardiner has ever proved anything but that doesn't make Backlund a top 6 player. Why does overselling one player mean we have to take shots at another player?
It is easy to tell by the tone of your post that you feel Gardiner possesses significantly more value than Backlund, when in reality he has not proven to be a consistent NHL player either. I also fail to see how I took a shot at Gardiner.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drew311 View Post
When did I use the term bust? I'm simply stating that Gardiner is the more proven player with the higher value. Until Backlund proves over a full season that he's a top 6 forward, Gardiner is the better player. Top 4 defenseman > bottom 6 forward.
I never said you did specifically, but it was mentioned in the thread.
It's a stretch to call Gardiner a top four defender at this point when he has not played at that level consistently.

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Old
09-04-2013, 09:10 PM
  #35
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Ah, No.

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Old
09-04-2013, 09:24 PM
  #36
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Originally Posted by HighLifeMan View Post
It is easy to tell by the tone of your post that you feel Gardiner possesses significantly more value than Backlund, when in reality he has not proven to be a consistent NHL player either. I also fail to see how I took a shot at Gardiner.
Because MVW called Backlund a top 6 player which he is not yet. Defenseman take longer to develop than forwards and I have seen more impressive things from Gardiner than I have from Backlund which leads me to believe Gardiner will not only be better but will be much more valuable.

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Old
09-04-2013, 09:27 PM
  #37
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Awful trade. doesnt take anyones needs into account, like at all. Not even remotely.

just bad all around.

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Old
09-04-2013, 09:29 PM
  #38
Johnny Hoxville
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I personally view Backlund and Gardiner at having similar upsides at their respective positions if they both hit their ceiling. I don't view this deal as lopsided in either teams favor. Perhaps this proposal in 1 to 2 seasons premature.

Of course that's my opinion and anyone is free to disagree with it.

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Old
09-04-2013, 09:31 PM
  #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheHudlinator View Post
Because MVW called Backlund a top 6 player which he is not yet. Defenseman take longer to develop than forwards and I have seen more impressive things from Gardiner than I have from Backlund which leads me to believe Gardiner will not only be better but will be much more valuable.
I do view him as a top 6 player. He has the skills and he will be one next season barring injury.

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Old
09-04-2013, 09:38 PM
  #40
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I do view him as a top 6 player. He has the skills and he will be one next season barring injury.
Time will tell if he will be one next season but saying someone is a top 6 center because he has the skills to be is like me saying Gardiner is a top 4 defenseman that can qb a PP because he has the skills to be. If they both reach their potential Gardiner>Backlund but Backlund is very good defensively and so his bust factor is basically zero which is in his favor. But a player with a career high of 25 points is not a top 6 center until he has a full season in which he proves it.

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Old
09-04-2013, 09:41 PM
  #41
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Originally Posted by TheHudlinator View Post
Time will tell if he will be one next season but saying someone is a top 6 center because he has the skills to be is like me saying Gardiner is a top 4 defenseman that can qb a PP because he has the skills to be. If they both reach their potential Gardiner>Backlund but Backlund is very good defensively and so is bust factor is basically zero which is in his favor. But a player with a career high of 25 points is not a top 6 center until he has a full season in which he proves it.
Huh? Except Gardiner actually is a top 4 dman that can qb a powerplay. Backlund is just a 3rd liner whose chances of becoming a productive top 6er are dwindling each season. Thats not a good comparison.

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Old
09-04-2013, 09:47 PM
  #42
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Leafs won't trade Gardiner to keep Franson.

Gardiner >>> Franson

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Old
09-04-2013, 09:55 PM
  #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheHudlinator View Post
Time will tell if he will be one next season but saying someone is a top 6 center because he has the skills to be is like me saying Gardiner is a top 4 defenseman that can qb a PP because he has the skills to be. If they both reach their potential Gardiner>Backlund but Backlund is very good defensively and so his bust factor is basically zero which is in his favor. But a player with a career high of 25 points is not a top 6 center until he has a full season in which he proves it.
You mean like someone using an argument that Glencross is valued as a 30 goal scorer if you pro rate his numbers?

Backlund is going to be a top 6 center by default next season no matter what, but in no way is me calling him one a stretch based on his play last season. We can all agree he's on the cusp of becoming a legit top 6 guy, the only thing holding him back is injuries.

No he hasn't been one over a full season, but his skill and game are there now. If he can stay healthy there will be no more debate on the matter. Feaster made the comments he did to call him out.

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Old
09-04-2013, 10:04 PM
  #44
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You mean like someone using an argument that Glencross is valued as a 30 goal scorer if you pro rate his numbers?
I have never called him a 30 goal scorer but that situation is also a bit different as he has been able to reproduce that production unlike Backlund. We have seen moments of greatness from Backlund but he also disappears a lot offensively, all I want is to see him be able to produce in a top 6 role like a top 6 player for more than half of a normal season.

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Old
09-04-2013, 10:22 PM
  #45
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Originally Posted by MVW View Post
To Toronto:



Mikael Backlund
Greg Nemisz
Chris Butler

To Calgary:



Jake Gardiner
JML

Thoughts?

This address the Leafs cap issues and gives Calgary a legitimate top 4 dman that becomes part of their new core for a long time.
So Toronto gives up a potential top 2 Dman in Gardiner with the main piece being Backlund who wouldn't be a fit in Toronto as he's not an upgrade on Bozak/Kadri and not suited for the 3rd line. The other pieces are just jobbers which we've got plenty of.

But thanks for the offer to save us cap space.

The only way Calgary is going to be able to attract free agents is by badly overpaying in dollars and term over the next few years. Liles would be a good veteran addition for them as a stop-gap with only 3 years left on his deal that is at a low value point in his career and would cost little to nothing to acquire.

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Old
09-04-2013, 10:23 PM
  #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blankall View Post
Backlund scored at a .5PPG pace last season despite averaging 3rd line minutes on a dreadful team and dealing with injury.

I'm not going to argue with you about Kadri, as he had an unbelievable season. However, Backlund is already scoring at a much higher pace than McClemant. He outscored Bolland last year. He's also just behind Bozak's pace, despite getting far fewer minutes/opportunities.

Him having no chance of developing into a better player than someone like McClemant is absurd. He's already better.
Bozak regularly faces other teams top defensive pairings so your pace argument holds little merit.

Wait, so Backlund who's shown very little promise as a top 6 player, is better than one of the best defensive forwards in the league who just so happened to finish sixth in Selke voting last year while being one of the main reasons why the Leafs PK went from 29th to 2nd? Could've fooled me

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09-04-2013, 10:43 PM
  #47
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Originally Posted by TheHudlinator View Post
I have never called him a 30 goal scorer but that situation is also a bit different as he has been able to reproduce that production unlike Backlund. We have seen moments of greatness from Backlund but he also disappears a lot offensively, all I want is to see him be able to produce in a top 6 role like a top 6 player for more than half of a normal season.
My point is, in the past you have often valued Glencross as a 30 goalscorer in previous trade proposal threads based on pro rating his numbers. I'll admit it's a 'little' bit different of a situation as you illustrated, but you have made a similar argument. I'm not going to sort through you 10k posts over the years either.

Regardless this is about Backlund. I want to see out of him what you want, I'm confident we'll see it next season with the opportunity he will get here. I also think a top 6C is valued the same as a top 4D. All things being equal and they hit their upside, I think their values are very close.

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Old
09-04-2013, 11:04 PM
  #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MVW View Post
My point is, in the past you have often valued Glencross as a 30 goalscorer in previous trade proposal threads based on pro rating his numbers. I'll admit it's a 'little' bit different of a situation as you illustrated, but you have made a similar argument. I'm not going to sort through you 10k posts over the years either.

Regardless this is about Backlund. I want to see out of him what you want, I'm confident we'll see it next season with the opportunity he will get here. I also think a top 6C is valued the same as a top 4D. All things being equal and they hit their upside, I think their values are very close.
Find me saying he is a 30 goal scorer as I am often careful to say on pace for. You can't call someone a top 6 player because they could be which was my point and Gardiner's value is higher than just a top 4 dman.

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Old
09-04-2013, 11:16 PM
  #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheHudlinator View Post
Find me saying he is a 30 goal scorer as I am often careful to say on pace for. You can't call someone a top 6 player because they could be which was my point and Gardiner's value is higher than just a top 4 dman.
It's not a big deal, but you have "valued him as a 30 goal scorer" because of his pace in previous proposals. I don't recall you outright ever calling him that, but valuing him as such.

And again Backlund is a top 6 player next season by default, but yes I'll admit he hasn't fulfilled that role yet but it's highly probable his play will back that up this upcoming season.

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Old
09-04-2013, 11:32 PM
  #50
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So Toronto gives up a potential top 2 Dman in Gardiner with the main piece being Backlund who wouldn't be a fit in Toronto as he's not an upgrade on Bozak/Kadri and not suited for the 3rd line. The other pieces are just jobbers which we've got plenty of.

But thanks for the offer to save us cap space.

The only way Calgary is going to be able to attract free agents is by badly overpaying in dollars and term over the next few years. Liles would be a good veteran addition for them as a stop-gap with only 3 years left on his deal that is at a low value point in his career and would cost little to nothing to acquire.
What makes you say that? He is very good defensively.
His takeway per game numbers last season were borderline elite, his corsi numbers were tops amongst forwards on the team, he faced top six competition consistently, and he has continually shown improvement in the faceoff circle.

The only thing that truly kept him from "breaking out" last season was his injury and the fact that it was a shortened year due to the lockout.

I also agree with MVW in the sense that although Backlund may not have received top six minutes last year, his play was definitely to that level. He is a top six player on this team as it stands now, and deservingly so after the progression he made last season. Is he a proven top six center league wide at this moment though? No of course not. I can agree with everyone else there.

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