HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > General Hockey Discussion > The History of Hockey
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
The History of Hockey Relive great moments in hockey history and discuss how the game has changed over time.

HOH Top 60 Centers of All-Time: Round 1 Preliminary Discussion Thread

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
09-04-2013, 07:31 PM
  #301
VanIslander
17/07/2014 ATD RIP
 
VanIslander's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 18,652
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sentinel View Post
Starshinov owned the 60s, along with Firsov. He should certainly rank higher than Maltsev...
Here are a couple of ATD bios on Starshinov:

http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...9&postcount=76

http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...&postcount=135


VanIslander is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-04-2013, 08:46 PM
  #302
MXD
Registered User
 
MXD's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Ottawa
Posts: 21,962
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Some relatively recent players who may or may not make my top 80 who haven't really been talked about yet:

Rod Brind'amour, Joe Nieuwendyk, Bernie Nicholls, Vincent Lecavalier, Brad Richards

Any thoughts on them?

Also, I realize that they have had very short careers as of now, but I'm finding it tough to leave Stamkos and Toews off my list. Especially Stamkos. I mean... there's a pretty good argument that Stamkos has already had a better prime (in terms of quality, length, and consistency) than Pat Lafontaine and Henrik Sedin, isn't there?
Stamkos is IMO too short career.

MXD is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
09-04-2013, 08:55 PM
  #303
SidGenoMario
Registered User
 
SidGenoMario's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Saskatoon, SK
Country: Canada
Posts: 6,383
vCash: 500
I'd just like to point out that in basketball, it isn't a missed field goal if you get fouled.

SidGenoMario is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-04-2013, 10:26 PM
  #304
Epsilon
#TeamHolland
 
Epsilon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Florence, SC
Posts: 36,603
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Also his play in the Olympics.
If one Olympic tournament is going to be factored in to a player with such a short career, are we going to start talking about Saku Koivu for the top 80?

Epsilon is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
09-04-2013, 10:41 PM
  #305
BM67
Registered User
 
BM67's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: In "The System"
Country: Canada
Posts: 4,579
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
In 1920-21, Fredrickson tied for the PCHA scoring title. I highly doubt he was as good as Newsy Lalonde who won the NHL scoring title that season, and perhaps Joe Malone and Frank Nighbor, both of whom were top 5 NHL scorers would be above him. Hard to say how he compares to Duke Keats, who led the Big 4 in scoring, the season before it because the WCHL. I would imagine Fredrickson was the 3rd of 4th best center in the world that year, behind Lalonde and Nighbor, ahead of Keats, too hard to say with Malone.

In 1921-22, Keats led the WCHL by a lopsided margin, so Fredrickson (3rd in the PCHA) was definitely behind him. Hard to compare to the NHL - Joe Malone (5th) was the highest scoring NHL center, and Frank Nighbor was way down in 18th in scoring - though I suspect Nighbor played an extremely defensive game that season, as his two wingers were 1-2 in NHL scoring.

1922-23 was Fredrickson's best season, when he led the PCHA in scoring by an enormous margin. None of the NHL centers had standout offensive seasons - Babe Dye led the NHL in scoring - and Keats had fallen back to the pack in the WCHL, so Fredrickson was definitely the best center in the world offensively, and you'd have to give Nighbor a ton of credit for his defensive game to not have Fredrickson above him overall for this particular season.

In 1923-24, Fredrickson was 2nd in PCHA scoring, way ahead of any teammate. By this season, the PCHA was starting to bleed talent, as it would go under the next year. Not sure how it would compare to Billy Burch (3rd in NHL scoring), Frank Nighbor (8th in NHL scoring, Hart winner), or Duke Keats (3rd in WCHL scoring, with the WCHL clearly a stronger league than the PCHA by this point). My guess is that Fredrickson was the 4th best center in the world behind those 3, because I think the PCHA really was a weak league by this point.

That covers Fredrickson's 4 seasons in the PCHA (he was a 1st Team AS all 4 seasons)
Fredrickson made the 1921-22 team as a spare, not as the center.

BM67 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-04-2013, 10:41 PM
  #306
TheDevilMadeMe
Global Moderator
 
TheDevilMadeMe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Brooklyn
Country: United States
Posts: 40,695
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Epsilon View Post
If one Olympic tournament is going to be factored in to a player with such a short career, are we going to start talking about Saku Koivu for the top 80?
How many Conn Smythes, Selkes and top 5 Hart finishes does Koivu have?

Quote:
Originally Posted by BM67 View Post
Fredrickson made the 1921-22 team as a spare, not as the center.
Yeah... Behind Jack Adams. I was quickly (lazily?) looking at the profile Hawkey Town posted which didn't make a distinction.

Edit: I went back and edited that post.


Last edited by TheDevilMadeMe: 09-05-2013 at 01:33 AM. Reason: merged short posts
TheDevilMadeMe is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
09-04-2013, 11:08 PM
  #307
MXD
Registered User
 
MXD's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Ottawa
Posts: 21,962
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
How many Conn Smythes, Selkes and top 5 Hart finishes does Koivu have?
Btw... How to factor in Olympics when so few players could participate ? I mean, if the kicker between, say, Dunderdale and Toews is Toews's performance in the Olympics, that 's kind of unfair, no ?

Again - I just want some opinions and add elements to a debate...

MXD is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
09-05-2013, 12:29 AM
  #308
TheDevilMadeMe
Global Moderator
 
TheDevilMadeMe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Brooklyn
Country: United States
Posts: 40,695
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by MXD View Post
Btw... How to factor in Olympics when so few players could participate ? I mean, if the kicker between, say, Dunderdale and Toews is Toews's performance in the Olympics, that 's kind of unfair, no ?

Again - I just want some opinions and add elements to a debate...
I don't know. I tend to view a great performance in a best-on-best tournament as similar to a great performance in the playoffs (albeit over fewer games). Maybe it's unfair to guys who played before best-on-best tournaments, but is that any different than a guy who never really got a shot at doing any damage in the playoffs because his NHL team sucked?

TheDevilMadeMe is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
09-05-2013, 12:38 AM
  #309
thom
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Posts: 2,111
vCash: 500
If Pierre Larouche had the work ethic of a koivo he would have been in hull.Where do people put Larouche.

thom is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
09-05-2013, 12:41 AM
  #310
TheDevilMadeMe
Global Moderator
 
TheDevilMadeMe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Brooklyn
Country: United States
Posts: 40,695
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by thom View Post
If Pierre Larouche had the work ethic of a koivo he would have been in hull.Where do people put Larouche.
Below Doug Weight, Neil Broten, and Bobby Smith, none of whom I considered for my top 80.

TheDevilMadeMe is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
09-05-2013, 04:03 AM
  #311
VMBM
Registered User
 
VMBM's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 1,781
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
the World Championships really seem to be where Maltsev distinguished himself from Petrov.
Did he? Overall, their stats are quite similar, although Maltsev has those best forward awards over him. Also, Maltsev has 5 all-star berths and Petrov 4, but that's not a big difference.

Anyway, 1973-79 Petrov was generally clearly better in the world championships, with the possible exceptions of 1974 and 1978, when Petrov was injured and didn't play all the games (he didn't play at all in 1976. Maltsev did not play in 1979). I also believe that Petrov has clearly better stats against the 'big countries' (Czechoslovakia, Canada, Sweden...). To call Maltsev a choker is a bit harsh, but IMO Petrov was a bit better in big games.
And hey, USSR never lost to Poland, when Petrov was on the top line

VMBM is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-05-2013, 04:14 AM
  #312
VMBM
Registered User
 
VMBM's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 1,781
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
Maltsev is an interesting case but how much of his ranking is based, in general not specifically by you, on his 3 best forward in the WHC?

The level of competition in 70 and 72 is so so and Dionne and then Wilf Paiement of all players precede him in 82.

I think there is a strong case for Laroinov over him myself.
And how many best forward awards did Larionov get? I mean, if it was so easy to win those and all...

VMBM is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-05-2013, 04:22 AM
  #313
TheDevilMadeMe
Global Moderator
 
TheDevilMadeMe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Brooklyn
Country: United States
Posts: 40,695
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by VMBM View Post
Did he? Overall, their stats are quite similar, although Maltsev has those best forward awards over him. Also, Maltsev has 5 all-star berths and Petrov 4, but that's not a big difference.

Anyway, 1973-79 Petrov was generally clearly better in the world championships, with the possible exceptions of 1974 and 1978, when Petrov was injured and didn't play all the games (he didn't play at all in 1976. Maltsev did not play in 1979). I also believe that Petrov has clearly better stats against the 'big countries' (Czechoslovakia, Canada, Sweden...). To call Maltsev a choker is a bit harsh, but IMO Petrov was a bit better in big games.
And hey, USSR never lost to Poland, when Petrov was on the top line
When they have similar stats, but Petrov centered Kharlamov and Mikhailov, while Maltsev won the awards, I think I'd take Maltsev. Maybe the difference isn't as big as I thought though. I know Petrov's stats were better against the "big countries," but how much of that was helped by his linemates who were more highly regarded than he was?

I'm asking because I don't know - when did Petrov not center Kharlamov and Mikhailov?

TheDevilMadeMe is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
09-05-2013, 04:57 AM
  #314
VMBM
Registered User
 
VMBM's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 1,781
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
When they have similar stats, but Petrov centered Kharlamov and Mikhailov, while Maltsev won the awards, I think I'd take Maltsev. Maybe the difference isn't as big as I thought though. I know Petrov's stats were better against the "big countries," but how much of that was helped by his linemates who were more highly regarded than he was?

I'm asking because I don't know - when did Petrov not center Kharlamov and Mikhailov?
Petrov always centered Mikhailov and Kharlamov, except in the 1972 WC, when he centered Mikhailov and Yuri Blinov (as later in the Summit series) and in 1981 - his last WC - when he centered Krutov and Makarov; and he actually scored more points than either K or M, even though he probably did not outperform them or anything like that.

I think it was in 1969-72, when Maltsev actually did distinguish himself from Petrov, but after that, Petrov was generally better. And I don't think it's totally fair to attribute his success to Kharlamov and Mikhailov - especially after 1976, when Kharlamov was past his peak. Maybe in the early years, it was somewhat different (Petrov did not seem to make any great impression in 1969-72).

Maltsev also centered or played with Mikhailov and Kharlamov occasionally, but I believe the results were quite mixed and the sample size might be too small to really make a comparison. It worked well in game 3 of the Summit series, it worked well in the game vs. the Bruins in the 1975-76 Super series, but it did not work that well in the infamous Flyers game,or in the aforementioned game vs. Poland (not totally their fault of course).

VMBM is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-05-2013, 07:28 AM
  #315
Hardyvan123
tweet@HardyintheWack
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Vancouver
Country: Canada
Posts: 12,937
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Epsilon View Post
If one Olympic tournament is going to be factored in to a player with such a short career, are we going to start talking about Saku Koivu for the top 80?
Did Saku captain 2 SC teams in his early days that we missed?

Or win a Selke?

Or finish 9th among Canadian scorers in 13? (tied for 13th overall but with more competition than earlier players).

Toews is also 12th in points (among Canadian players) to start his career and his 2 way play and intangibles probably make him a top 5ish forward for those first 6 years of his career.

Perhaps 6 years is too short but my bet is that if we do this project in 2 years with say 8 years of service for Toews that it would be hard to keep him out.

As it is, there will probably be a good case for him over some of the 70-80ish players on some lists after the project is over.

As for Saku, injuries derailed what very well might have been a top 80 center for this project.

Hardyvan123 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-05-2013, 07:46 AM
  #316
Hardyvan123
tweet@HardyintheWack
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Vancouver
Country: Canada
Posts: 12,937
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by MXD View Post
Btw... How to factor in Olympics when so few players could participate ? I mean, if the kicker between, say, Dunderdale and Toews is Toews's performance in the Olympics, that 's kind of unfair, no ?

Again - I just want some opinions and add elements to a debate...
How is it unfair?

Toews was still the best player for Canada in 2010, a time of great international competition and Dunderdale played in a time when ho many players actually played at a high level?

As it is Dunderdale played in a time where the best players in the world, at that time, were scattered in different leagues and we have limited information of those leagues in general as well.

I think we have to measure both guys against their piers, then evaluate the level of competition of their piers and what was around at the time and do some tricky balancing.

In the end if one chooses Toews and his best on best in 10 over some other difference is it really a big deal?

What's the alternative, always given preference to the earlier guy?

The fairness issue works both ways, and usually against the more modern guy it seems.

Hardyvan123 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-05-2013, 07:49 AM
  #317
Hardyvan123
tweet@HardyintheWack
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Vancouver
Country: Canada
Posts: 12,937
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by VMBM View Post
And how many best forward awards did Larionov get? I mean, if it was so easy to win those and all...
We both know that he got zero but the point was that it wasn't any best on best tournaments there and Igor did have a very long and productive NHL career as well..

Hardyvan123 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-05-2013, 08:07 AM
  #318
Sentinel
Registered User
 
Sentinel's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: New Jersey
Country: United States
Posts: 2,919
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by VMBM View Post
And how many best forward awards did Larionov get? I mean, if it was so easy to win those and all...
One Best Player award (1988, IIRC)

Sentinel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-05-2013, 08:11 AM
  #319
Sentinel
Registered User
 
Sentinel's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: New Jersey
Country: United States
Posts: 2,919
vCash: 500
Maltsev centered K and M (Kharlamov and Mikhailov, not Krutov and Makarov, hehe) for 7 out of 8 games in 72 SS. Ended up with 4 assists. In 74 he was not even in the top ten scorers. Then there is Poland and USA.

I seriously can't describe him as anything other than a choker.

Sentinel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-05-2013, 11:33 AM
  #320
VMBM
Registered User
 
VMBM's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 1,781
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sentinel View Post
Maltsev centered K and M (Kharlamov and Mikhailov, not Krutov and Makarov, hehe) for 7 out of 8 games in 72 SS. Ended up with 4 assists.
No, he centered Mikhailov only in one game (g3). Mostly he played with Kharlamov and Vladimir Vikulov. And the official stats have him scoring 5 points (all assists) actually.

VMBM is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-05-2013, 11:40 AM
  #321
unknown33
Registered User
 
unknown33's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Europe
Country: Marshall Islands
Posts: 3,393
vCash: 500
For all the hate he gets what are the opinions on Joe Nieuwendyk for the #60-#80 range?

unknown33 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-05-2013, 12:02 PM
  #322
Canadiens1958
Registered User
 
Canadiens1958's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 11,340
vCash: 500
Joe Nieuwendyk

Quote:
Originally Posted by unknown33 View Post
For all the hate he gets what are the opinions on Joe Nieuwendyk for the #60-#80 range?
A possible candidate. Obstacles being an early prime followed by steady offensive decline and for a modern HHOF center he is a rarity with more career goals than assists:

http://www.hockey-reference.com/play...nieuwjo01.html


Last edited by Canadiens1958: 09-05-2013 at 12:07 PM. Reason: add a word
Canadiens1958 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-05-2013, 02:37 PM
  #323
tony d
The Future
 
tony d's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Behind A Tree
Country: Canada
Posts: 36,550
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by unknown33 View Post
For all the hate he gets what are the opinions on Joe Nieuwendyk for the #60-#80 range?
Nieuwendyk would be a fine candidate towards the ends of the rankings. 5 Top 10 Goal finishes certainly help his case.

__________________
tony d is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
09-05-2013, 02:53 PM
  #324
TheDevilMadeMe
Global Moderator
 
TheDevilMadeMe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Brooklyn
Country: United States
Posts: 40,695
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sentinel View Post
Maltsev centered K and M (Kharlamov and Mikhailov, not Krutov and Makarov, hehe) for 7 out of 8 games in 72 SS. Ended up with 4 assists. In 74 he was not even in the top ten scorers. Then there is Poland and USA.

I seriously can't describe him as anything other than a choker.
Based on your high ranking of Yakushev as well, it seems to me you are ranking him and Maltsev based largely on what they did during the 8 games of the 1972 Summit Series, an important series, but just one series.

And seriously, I know it was pointed out to you in a previous thread that Maltsev had 5 assists in the Summit Series; why do you keep saying he had 4? It's a small nitpick, but it really hurts your case to quote incorrect stats repeatedly.


Last edited by TheDevilMadeMe: 09-05-2013 at 03:04 PM.
TheDevilMadeMe is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
09-05-2013, 04:08 PM
  #325
Sentinel
Registered User
 
Sentinel's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: New Jersey
Country: United States
Posts: 2,919
vCash: 500
Here are the correct (and relevant) stats on Maltsev.

SS-72: 8 games, 0 goals.
SS-74: 8 games, 4 goals (not in the Top 10).
75/76 Series against NHL clubs with CSKA: 4 games, 1 goal
KK-81: 4 games, 1 goal.

0.615 PPG vs. Canada.
vs. CSSR: 63 games, 21 goals

My high opinion of Yakushev is based on several things: 72, 74, Spartak's championship win, etc. He was clutch all the way. The opposite of Maltsev.

Sentinel is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 03:17 PM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2014 All Rights Reserved.