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Old
09-05-2013, 11:38 AM
  #951
Proto
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Originally Posted by hawksfan79 View Post
Hawks fan coming in peace....

I've watched this kid since he came up, when he first started, he was much more physical than he is now, and that was likely a coaching decision. If you notice, no one other than Seabrook on Chicago's D is very physical at all I think for self preservation. Coach Q teaches the "active stick" (where's my Eddie O voice when I need it...) and moving the puck quickly and trying to avoid big hits most of the time. Under another style/system, he might be totally different. The dude is also one of the premier shotblockers in the game.

His offense does have room for improvement, but again, that's not his role on this team, you have Keith and Sharp on the 1st PP pairing, then Leddy and Forward B on the second pairing. He's also the safety valve for Johnny Oduya, who does take a lot of chances from the blueline.

I think he's a little better than you've given him credit before which is why a lot of Hawks fan were afraid he was going to command $5 million+ so that's why most of us were ecstatic with the deal he did end up signing. Just my take!
I think it's a nice deal with the term the Hawks got. I'm not a fan of the Crawford deal at all, just given his relatively short track record. I have the same opinion with Bickell.

I think we've seen enjoy hockey from Hjalmarsson and a linear enough progression that I don't think there's much risk here, and there's at least a reasonable chance he'll continue to improve as time goes on.

Besides, even if he wouldn't be as good in another system, he won't be playing in one. The Hawks can be confident in what they'll get for the dollar value. That seems fair.

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Old
09-05-2013, 11:52 AM
  #952
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Originally Posted by Proto View Post
I think it's a nice deal with the term the Hawks got. I'm not a fan of the Crawford deal at all, just given his relatively short track record. I have the same opinion with Bickell.

I think we've seen enjoy hockey from Hjalmarsson and a linear enough progression that I don't think there's much risk here, and there's at least a reasonable chance he'll continue to improve as time goes on.

Besides, even if he wouldn't be as good in another system, he won't be playing in one. The Hawks can be confident in what they'll get for the dollar value. That seems fair.
I sort of agree, although I don't totally hate the Crawford deal, but I do acknowledge there is some real risk in that deal if he regresses. It's hard to remove the memory of that playoff meltdown against Phoenix a few years ago, even if he did play mostly lights out last year. As for Bickell, unless he completely dogs it, I think he fills out a big need for the Hawks as they don't have many physical wingers, so if he pots 20 goals and is physical, I think the deal is a winner. Also, the guy made minimum salary for all the years he's been in the league so far, so part of it was a reward for taking those minimum salaries.

That's why I'm pretty much not concerned about the salaries handed out this summer. If push comes to shove and they need some money to sign Toews and Kane, others will go and they'll move on.

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09-05-2013, 12:02 PM
  #953
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Is Brian Burke's face ever red. He looks like a McIntosh apple with an inch and a half of snow on it.

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09-05-2013, 12:03 PM
  #954
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Originally Posted by Chairman Maouth View Post
Is Brian Burke's face ever red. He looks like a McIntosh apple with an inch and a half of snow on it.
That's what happens when Burke ties up his ties...

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09-05-2013, 12:07 PM
  #955
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Originally Posted by Bleach Clean View Post
Overall, I think it's a fair deal. NH's underlying numbers are fantastic, despite not having skills that stand out. He's a very good DFD with no real size, shot or offensive savvy. 4.1 sounds fair for that, given current market conditions. Fair to good deal.



I'm no Bieksa fan really, but traits are more rare. NH has played much better, but I don't think he impacts a game in the same way. Such a comparison after 2011 would have been laughable though. Hamhuis-Bieksa was a great shut down pair.

I think the offensive ability from VAN's Dmen gets underrated. Even Garrison can score with his great shot. It sets this D corps apart in many ways, IMO.
Though I agree that doesn't refute the fact that Hjalmarsson is the better player 80% of the time.

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09-05-2013, 12:58 PM
  #956
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Originally Posted by Burke's Evil Spirit View Post
Edit - I'll also add that you under-sell Kadri. He was never really in bust territory - was PPG at the AHL level and should've been in the NHL long before Carlyle actually gave him minutes (a trend in Toronto last season - see Jake Gardiner). He is, right now, their #1 center. Head and shoulders.
Yeah this is actually a common occurrence with prospects, which in Kadri's case was amplified by the massive Toronto media & fanbase. A kid gets drafted high and shows some immediate promise, the fanbase gets excited. Except the kid still actually needs a few years to develop, so after that initial high fans see what appears to be stagnation/decline and some turn on a sort of panic mode that he'll never turn out. Or outside fans look at the lack of NHL progress and assume the prospect isn't panning out.

Luc Bourdon (RIP) and Bobby Ryan are examples of this that come to mind.

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Old
09-05-2013, 01:22 PM
  #957
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@NHLFlames 2h
"Successful teams in the league are big, we are going to get bigger," -- Brian Burke.

Never change BB

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09-05-2013, 01:24 PM
  #958
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Originally Posted by crazycanuck View Post
Actually I think Burke will be President of Hockey Ops. And then will replace Feaster in 2-3 years once the rebuild is done.
Well this was a good guess.

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09-05-2013, 01:26 PM
  #959
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Originally Posted by Lph View Post
@NHLFlames 2h
"Successful teams in the league are big, we are going to get bigger," -- Brian Burke.

Never change BB
Okay, Burke. We'll take that small forward Cammalleri offer your hands.

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09-05-2013, 01:36 PM
  #960
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Originally Posted by Lph View Post
@NHLFlames 2h
"Successful teams in the league are big, we are going to get bigger," -- Brian Burke.

Never change BB
So much for the Leafs hoping Burke will take Liles off their hands....

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Old
09-05-2013, 01:38 PM
  #961
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Originally Posted by Lph View Post
@NHLFlames 2h
"Successful teams in the league are big, we are going to get bigger," -- Brian Burke.

Never change BB
I think I know the answer to this but aren't the Bruins quite a bit bigger than the Hawks?

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Old
09-05-2013, 01:44 PM
  #962
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Originally Posted by Eddy Punch Clock View Post
I think I know the answer to this but aren't the Bruins quite a bit bigger than the Hawks?
The Kings are bigger as well

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Old
09-05-2013, 01:47 PM
  #963
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Originally Posted by hawksfan79 View Post
I sort of agree, although I don't totally hate the Crawford deal, but I do acknowledge there is some real risk in that deal if he regresses. It's hard to remove the memory of that playoff meltdown against Phoenix a few years ago, even if he did play mostly lights out last year. As for Bickell, unless he completely dogs it, I think he fills out a big need for the Hawks as they don't have many physical wingers, so if he pots 20 goals and is physical, I think the deal is a winner. Also, the guy made minimum salary for all the years he's been in the league so far, so part of it was a reward for taking those minimum salaries.

That's why I'm pretty much not concerned about the salaries handed out this summer. If push comes to shove and they need some money to sign Toews and Kane, others will go and they'll move on.
I guess I would look at these three things. I'll stick to the regular season for now, as there is more data and it's evenly distributed across a more even segment of competition:

1.) Crawford was undoubtedly excellent this season, posting a 934 EV SV%. It was in only 28 starts (30 games), however.

2.) In 2011-2012, Crawford posted a pedestrian .915 EV SV% at even strength over 55 starts (57 games). Those are "good backup" numbers but not much more.

3.) In 2010-2011 over 55 starts (57 games), he posted an above average .924 EV SV%.

If you showed me those numbers without any context but his age (so ignoring whether he's won a Stanley Cup, or what team he played for, or whether his teammates like him), I'd have a few questions:

Were his improved results this year an increase in true talent/ability? That is to say, I'd want to know if he looked better, or whether goalie scouts are convinced he was playing materially better. Lots of goalies get hot for a half season of hockey, but that's not indicative of expected future results.

Further to that point, he was very average the preceding season. Two seasons ago, he was good but not elite, probably a bit better than a James Reimer type goaltender. I'm not sure I look at that body of work and conclude that he'll be better than the good-but-not-great camp of goaltenders, guys who bounce around 920-925 at EV play each season.

On a team like the Hawks, that's more than enough. My issue would be that with the term they gave him, they're paying him like a guy who you would expect a 927-928 EV SV% out of year to year, and I don't know if I see that there, but goaltending is part voodoo magic anyway, and the Hawks can afford to make a few mistakes. It does seem like an overpayment to me. I would have expected something like 3-4 years at 5m per, max.


Last edited by Proto: 09-05-2013 at 01:53 PM.
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Old
09-05-2013, 01:49 PM
  #964
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Originally Posted by Lph View Post
The Kings are bigger as well
Sometimes the bigger team wins.

Sometimes it doesn't.

Rock solid.

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09-05-2013, 01:50 PM
  #965
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eddy Punch Clock View Post
I think I know the answer to this but aren't the Bruins quite a bit bigger than the Hawks?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lph View Post
The Kings are bigger as well
The Hawks, Bruins and Kings are also ridiculously deep, skilled teams.

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Old
09-05-2013, 01:57 PM
  #966
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Originally Posted by Intoewsables View Post
The Hawks, Bruins and Kings are also ridiculously deep, skilled teams.
Exactly, focusing on size is not really what you want to do. Having a deep, well-balanced team with a ton of skill is the "formula"

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09-05-2013, 01:57 PM
  #967
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Originally Posted by Eddy Punch Clock View Post
I think I know the answer to this but aren't the Bruins quite a bit bigger than the Hawks?
Yes, but who did the masses think was the X-factor during the Finals?

Hint, he's listed at 6'3" 233lbs and has been credited with changing the complexion of the series.



Yup, Bryan Bickell.

Size matters, it helps a ton, but being a competitive SOB who isn't afraid to go anywhere on the ice helps too, it's why a kid like Andrew Shaw is also valuable. But basically the series shifted once Kane and Toews were put with Bickell.

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09-05-2013, 02:00 PM
  #968
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Originally Posted by Lph View Post
@NHLFlames 2h
"Successful teams in the league are big, we are going to get bigger," -- Brian Burke.

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I never really thought of Calgary lacking size or grit. I've always thought their biggest downfall is a lack of skilled players. Now if Burkey can get some big talented guys.....

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Old
09-05-2013, 02:04 PM
  #969
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Originally Posted by arsmaster View Post
Yes, but who did the masses think was the X-factor during the Finals?

Hint, he's listed at 6'3" 233lbs and has been credited with changing the complexion of the series.



Yup, Bryan Bickell.

Size matters, it helps a ton, but being a competitive SOB who isn't afraid to go anywhere on the ice helps too, it's why a kid like Andrew Shaw is also valuable. But basically the series shifted once Kane and Toews were put with Bickell.
On the other hand, Kane and Keith were imo the two most valuable players, and both are almost entirely skill players. A team needs a mix of both ideally

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09-05-2013, 02:09 PM
  #970
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I never really thought of Calgary lacking size or grit. I've always thought their biggest downfall is a lack of skilled players. Now if Burkey can get some big talented guys.....
Flames need help pretty much everywhere though.

Quite frankly, I would've feared more had Burke been hired by the Oilers in the same capacity. One, he'd be better than Tambo and more importantly, it would mean Kevin Lowe would be in the EI office. And of course, there's at least a fair bit more to work with in Edmonton.

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09-05-2013, 02:14 PM
  #971
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Flames need help pretty much everywhere though.

Quite frankly, I would've feared more had Burke been hired by the Oilers in the same capacity. One, he'd be better than Tambo and more importantly, it would mean Kevin Lowe would be in the EI office. And of course, there's at least a fair bit more to work with in Edmonton.
Agreed. I take a great deal of comfort knowing that Kevin Lowe is still masterminding the re-build along with MacT. Burke or any semi-competent GM could turn around Edmonton really quickly if he took over. As it is, I think the Oilers will inevetably improve but not be a true power until they get a competent GM.

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Old
09-05-2013, 02:22 PM
  #972
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I wager Burke has quite a bit of success in Calgary. It's essentially a clean slate. He can rebuild the team in however manner he chooses, as they really have little in the way of established talent. A couple low finishes, Burke's usual solid drafting and Calgary just may begin to become respectable again. Hilariously, their rebuild could speed by Edmonton's.

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09-05-2013, 02:25 PM
  #973
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Exactly, focusing on size is not really what you want to do. Having a deep, well-balanced team with a ton of skill is the "formula"
To be fair, he said similar with Toronto, yet went out and got players like Kessel, Lupul and drafted Kadri. Burke's definition of "big" seems to be too dissimilar to Boston's model: big, but skilled.

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09-05-2013, 02:32 PM
  #974
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Originally Posted by Bourne Endeavor View Post
To be fair, he said similar with Toronto, yet went out and got players like Kessel, Lupul and drafted Kadri. Burke's definition of "big" seems to be too dissimilar to Boston's model: big, but skilled.
Burke tried to get the Sedins (or was at least very interested in signing them IF they hit free agency) as well during his time as the Leafs GM.

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09-05-2013, 02:34 PM
  #975
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On the other hand, Kane and Keith were imo the two most valuable players, and both are almost entirely skill players. A team needs a mix of both ideally
Keith is a top 5 two way dman in the league not a pure skill guy.

Kane's game picked up when put with Bickell, just like it did when put wit Byfuglien.

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