HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Western Conference > Pacific Division > Edmonton Oilers
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
Notices

Brian Burke-President of Hockey Operations for the Calgary Flames

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
09-05-2013, 01:17 PM
  #126
Asher
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Country: Canada
Posts: 13,991
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by GreatKeith View Post
You are dodging the question. What decent veteran goalies has Burke acquired for any of the past teams he was employed by? And if khabibulin is so bad, why did Chicago pick him up?
Because Khabby can still play the game when he's healthy and well-rested. He's a good backup even at his age. The Oilers brought Khabby to be a starter, which he can't do now and wasn't capable of doing even four years ago. Replacing Roloson with Khabby because Roli wanted a 2 year deal (when the Oilers only wanted to give him 1) with a less capable Khabby, and giving him a 4 year contract to boot, should be considered Tambo's signature move for this franchise. More than anything, it's what caused them to go from being merely a bad team to being the worst team in the league.

Asher is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-05-2013, 01:20 PM
  #127
guymez
The Seldom Seen Kid
 
guymez's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Calgary
Country: Canada
Posts: 12,557
vCash: 0
Quote:
Originally Posted by GreatKeith View Post
You are dodging the question. What decent veteran goalies has Burke acquired for any of the past teams he was employed by? And if khabibulin is so bad, why did Chicago pick him up?
Chicago was smart enough to realize that Khabhy was an average backup and signed him to an appropriate contract which reflects that.

The Oilers brilliant management team thought Khabby was a starter and over paid both in dollars and term.

Thats the difference between a good management team and a bad one.

Thanks for illustrating that.

Quote:
Lowe isn't the greatest but Burke hasn't had a team make the playoffs while he was still employed by them in a number of years. It took 3 years for the leafs to make the playoffs in a hopelessly incompetent eastern conference.

But suddenly he's going to turn the flames around super quickly with exactly one stud prospect.
Nice dodge...what has Lowe specifically done?

As for Burke....the impact of the Sedins et al on the Canucks is self explanatory. He turned them from a bad hockey team into a playoff team in 2 years. Into a contender within 4 years. This was all done in the pre cap years when it was a lot harder.

He has also won a cup as a Manager something Lowe has never done.

Burke has had some warts on his resume (some of the Toronto moves deserve scrutiny) but what GM doesnt have a few warts on their record.
Overall he has an excellent draft record and he has managed contending and cup winning teams.

So based on that I think the Flames made an astute hire today.

guymez is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-05-2013, 01:21 PM
  #128
Asher
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Country: Canada
Posts: 13,991
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by SK13 View Post
The point isn't how long is the Oilers rebuild taking, it's how on earth you could justify how much shorter the Flames rebuild will be given what's there. Monahan is not and likely never will be Taylor Hall. In terms of timeline comparison, he would be their Magnus Paajarvi pick, no?
It depends what Burke does outside the draft. Other than drafting, and specifically, 1st round picks, Tambo did very little to be proud of. One would think that Burke could do more in the way of free agency and trades than Tambo did.

Asher is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-05-2013, 01:23 PM
  #129
guymez
The Seldom Seen Kid
 
guymez's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Calgary
Country: Canada
Posts: 12,557
vCash: 0
Quote:
Originally Posted by joestevens29 View Post
According to you when we drafted Hall.
Who really knows when the rebuild started for this team.

It was pretty clear that it started well before Lowe and company decided to publicly announce it thereby deflecting any attention away from their previous couple of years of incompetence.

guymez is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-05-2013, 01:28 PM
  #130
SK13
Mo'Linguish
 
SK13's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Edmonton
Country: Canada
Posts: 24,223
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by guymez View Post
Who really knows when the rebuild started for this team.

It was pretty clear that it started well before Lowe and company decided to publicly announce it thereby deflecting any attention away from their previous couple of years of incompetence.
Chasing Heatley and signing Khabibulin sure sounds like the actions of a covert rebuild.

You wanna know when it happened? December 2009, when an injury decimated Oilers were bottom of the league and Katz went onto the radio saying, basically, "screw it, we need to start over".

SK13 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-05-2013, 01:31 PM
  #131
GreatKeith
Super Smashed Oilers
 
GreatKeith's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 13,616
vCash: 2394
Quote:
Originally Posted by Asher View Post
Because Khabby can still play the game when he's healthy and well-rested. He's a good backup even at his age. The Oilers brought Khabby to be a starter, which he can't do now and wasn't capable of doing even four years ago. Replacing Roloson with Khabby because Roli wanted a 2 year deal (when the Oilers only wanted to give him 1) with a less capable Khabby, and giving him a 4 year contract to boot, should be considered Tambo's signature move for this franchise. More than anything, it's what caused them to go from being merely a bad team to being the worst team in the league.
The thing here is that khabibulin was coming off a trip to the WCF. Sure tambo overpaid and gave him too many years, but the fact is that he was still a starter on a very good team.

GreatKeith is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-05-2013, 01:32 PM
  #132
guymez
The Seldom Seen Kid
 
guymez's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Calgary
Country: Canada
Posts: 12,557
vCash: 0
Quote:
Originally Posted by SK13 View Post
Chasing Heatley and signing Khabibulin sure sounds like the actions of a covert rebuild.

You wanna know when it happened? December 2009, when an injury decimated Oilers were bottom of the league and Katz went onto the radio saying, basically, "screw it, we need to start over".
Ok...fair enough. So lets say the Oilers rebuild started in December of 09.

The team looks like it might be a bubble team this season so thats almost 5 years of rebuilding.

Shouldn't this team be a bonifide playoff team by now?

guymez is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-05-2013, 01:34 PM
  #133
Del Preston
Bobblehead Nelly
 
Del Preston's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Country: Canada
Posts: 9,487
vCash: 0
Quote:
Originally Posted by guymez View Post
Chicago was smart enough to realize that Khabhy was an average backup and signed him to an appropriate contract which reflects that.

The Oilers brilliant management team thought Khabby was a starter and over paid both in dollars and term.

Thats the difference between a good management team and a bad one.

Thanks for illustrating that.
How in the world can you compare the two? Khabibulin was signed by the Oilers when he was 36 and the Chicago starter. The 'Hawks got him back as a 40-year-old, often injured backup.

Del Preston is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
09-05-2013, 01:38 PM
  #134
Beerfish
Registered User
 
Beerfish's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 11,751
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by SK13 View Post
Chasing Heatley and signing Khabibulin sure sounds like the actions of a covert rebuild.

You wanna know when it happened? December 2009, when an injury decimated Oilers were bottom of the league and Katz went onto the radio saying, basically, "screw it, we need to start over".
EH? Going after those two among other things is the exact opposite of a 'rebuild'. The oilers fell into a rebuild because they failed at almost everything they put their hands to and were clearly forced into it. Giving our front office credit for a masterfully planned rebuild is hilarious. After stinking it up so bad and with a few injuries it became apparent that yes we really are a bottom 5 team in the league they brought up the rebuild term as if there was some grand plan.

Beerfish is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-05-2013, 01:39 PM
  #135
Moose Coleman
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Posts: 4,016
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by guymez View Post
Ok...fair enough. So lets say the Oilers rebuild started in December of 09.

The team looks like it might be a bubble team this season so thats almost 5 years of rebuilding.

Shouldn't this team be a bonifide playoff team by now?
I dunno: should it? It's not like there's not a ton of precedent here.

Given where they started, I can't really think of what they might have done differently to lock the team into a playoff position (in other words, not just ride the percentages over the bubble) any earlier, can you?

Moose Coleman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-05-2013, 01:40 PM
  #136
Asher
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Country: Canada
Posts: 13,991
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by GreatKeith View Post
The thing here is that khabibulin was coming off a trip to the WCF. Sure tambo overpaid and gave him too many years, but the fact is that he was still a starter on a very good team.
He split the regular season with Huet (albeit playing well) before going 8-6 in the playoffs with a 2.93GAA and a .898 save %. And of course, he did all that on a much better team. I didn't see those numbers translating well to EDM at all, and I certainly did not think Khabby could go back to being a workhorse goalie on a bad team at that stage of his career. The guy had a lot of miles on him and a known history of injuries. That signing was bound to blow up in Tambo's face, and of course that's exactly what happened.

Asher is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-05-2013, 01:40 PM
  #137
guymez
The Seldom Seen Kid
 
guymez's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Calgary
Country: Canada
Posts: 12,557
vCash: 0
Quote:
Originally Posted by Del Preston View Post
How in the world can you compare the two? Khabibulin was signed by the Oilers when he was 36 and the Chicago starter. The 'Hawks got him back as a 40-year-old, often injured backup.
Khabby played 116 games since the Oilers signed him 4 years ago.
He had a history of injuries and any competent management team could see that he was not starting material simply because of his injury history which started long before the Oilers signed him.

He was a a backup and nothing more 4 years ago when he arrived. That was blatantly obvious to anybody paying attention but not to the Oilers management team as they continued to make him their starter year after year.
That signing was a blunder that hurt this hockey team and added years to the rebuilding.

guymez is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-05-2013, 01:42 PM
  #138
Moose Coleman
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Posts: 4,016
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beerfish View Post
EH? Going after those two among other things is the exact opposite of a 'rebuild'.
he forgot the

Quote:
The oilers fell into a rebuild because they failed at almost everything they put their hands to and were clearly forced into it. Giving our front office credit for a masterfully planned rebuild is hilarious. After stinking it up so bad and with a few injuries it became apparent that yes we really are a bottom 5 team in the league they brought up the rebuild term as if there was some grand plan
Well, they could have held on to assets at the TDD and continued to try and add veterans in hopes of squeaking in (the Calgary model)...

Moose Coleman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-05-2013, 01:43 PM
  #139
GreatKeith
Super Smashed Oilers
 
GreatKeith's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 13,616
vCash: 2394
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beerfish View Post
EH? Going after those two among other things is the exact opposite of a 'rebuild'. The oilers fell into a rebuild because they failed at almost everything they put their hands to and were clearly forced into it. Giving our front office credit for a masterfully planned rebuild is hilarious. After stinking it up so bad and with a few injuries it became apparent that yes we really are a bottom 5 team in the league they brought up the rebuild term as if there was some grand plan.
I think the sarcasm sailed over your head.

GreatKeith is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-05-2013, 01:46 PM
  #140
Del Preston
Bobblehead Nelly
 
Del Preston's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Country: Canada
Posts: 9,487
vCash: 0
Quote:
Originally Posted by guymez View Post
Khabby played 116 games since the Oilers signed him 4 years ago.
He had a history of injuries and any competent management team could see that he was not starting material simply because of his injury history which started long before the Oilers signed him.

He was a a backup and nothing more 4 years ago when he arrived. That was blatantly obvious to anybody paying attention but not to the Oilers management team as they continued to make him their starter year after year.
That signing was a blunder that hurt this hockey team and added years to the rebuilding.
No he wasn't. He beat out Huet as the starter in Chicago. They wanted to re-sign him but he left because of the contract Tambellini gave him.

http://www.thefourthperiod.com/news/chi090630.html

I'm not arguing that it didn't turn out to be a horrible deal but you're wrong saying he was a backup put into a starting role.

Del Preston is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
09-05-2013, 01:47 PM
  #141
guymez
The Seldom Seen Kid
 
guymez's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Calgary
Country: Canada
Posts: 12,557
vCash: 0
Quote:
Originally Posted by GreatKeith View Post
The thing here is that khabibulin was coming off a trip to the WCF. Sure tambo overpaid and gave him too many years, but the fact is that he was still a starter on a very good team.
Khabby was not a legitimate starter when he arrived in Edmonton because of the injury history. He had proven that he could not be relied upon to start enough games and play at a high level due to the high mileage on his body.

Many posters on this board (including myself) said as much when he was signed. Khabby was done as a starter during his first go around with the Hawks.

Looking past all that history and pointing to a Stanley Cup from 2003 is not based on present reality. Although Lowe does like to look back at the distant past as justification for his decisions so I guess the lack of due diligence should surprise anyone.

Little wonder this team is still a question mark after almost 5 years of rebuilding.

guymez is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-05-2013, 01:48 PM
  #142
SK13
Mo'Linguish
 
SK13's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Edmonton
Country: Canada
Posts: 24,223
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by guymez View Post
Ok...fair enough. So lets say the Oilers rebuild started in December of 09.

The team looks like it might be a bubble team this season so thats almost 5 years of rebuilding.

Shouldn't this team be a bonifide playoff team by now?
I count 3 years, 9 months - not 5 years.

And if we compare timelines, we see the moment Calgary acknowledged their need for a rebuild (more vaguely than the Oilers did) was February 2013 - with the assertion that Iginla was on the trade market.

6 months and counting. Are the Flames going to be a bonafide playoff team in November of 2016?

SK13 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-05-2013, 01:50 PM
  #143
SK13
Mo'Linguish
 
SK13's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Edmonton
Country: Canada
Posts: 24,223
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beerfish View Post
EH? Going after those two among other things is the exact opposite of a 'rebuild'. The oilers fell into a rebuild because they failed at almost everything they put their hands to and were clearly forced into it.
Which was exactly my point.

I think you need to re-read the conversation.

Quote:
Giving our front office credit for a masterfully planned rebuild is hilarious. After stinking it up so bad and with a few injuries it became apparent that yes we really are a bottom 5 team in the league they brought up the rebuild term as if there was some grand plan.
Didn't give them credit for anything. They declared their interest in a rebuild only after injuries decimated what was already a poor team.

The Flames failure in comparison is not acknowledging the same in the Spring of 2012.

SK13 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-05-2013, 01:52 PM
  #144
guymez
The Seldom Seen Kid
 
guymez's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Calgary
Country: Canada
Posts: 12,557
vCash: 0
Quote:
Originally Posted by Del Preston View Post
No he wasn't. He beat out Huet as the starter in Chicago. They wanted to re-sign him but he left because of the contract Tambellini gave him.

http://www.thefourthperiod.com/news/chi090630.html

I'm not arguing that it didn't turn out to be a horrible deal but you're wrong saying he was a backup put into a starting role.
Yes thats my opinion. Khabby was no better than a backup when the Oilers signed him.

He hasnt played over 50 games and had a SV% of over .910 since 2003/04. Its clear that he hadnt been an effective starter since that season and with advancing age (and too much mileage) he wasn't going to return to that form anytime soon.

This isn't revisionist history either...I said as much the day the Oilers signed him.

guymez is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-05-2013, 01:53 PM
  #145
Asher
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Country: Canada
Posts: 13,991
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by SK13 View Post
I count 3 years, 9 months - not 5 years.

And if we compare timelines, we see the moment Calgary acknowledged their need for a rebuild (more vaguely than the Oilers did) was February 2013 - with the assertion that Iginla was on the trade market.

6 months and counting. Are the Flames going to be a bonafide playoff team in November of 2016?
It really depends what Burke can do. He got lucky (although you could argue one needs to be good to be lucky), by adding players like Gardiner, Lupul, and Phaneuf. I'm not a fan of the Kessel deal, but even I can't deny that he's been a good player for them. There are too many variables to project forward with a guy like Burke because you know he's going to be active.

Asher is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-05-2013, 01:54 PM
  #146
GreatKeith
Super Smashed Oilers
 
GreatKeith's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 13,616
vCash: 2394
Quote:
Originally Posted by guymez View Post
Khabby was not a legitimate starter when he arrived in Edmonton because of the injury history. He had proven that he could not be relied upon to start enough games and play at a high level due to the high mileage on his body.

Many posters on this board (including myself) said as much when he was signed. Khabby was done as a starter during his first go around with the Hawks.

Looking past all that history and pointing to a Stanley Cup from 2003 is not based on present reality. Although Lowe does like to look back at the distant past as justification for his decisions so I guess the lack of due diligence should surprise anyone.

Little wonder this team is still a question mark after almost 5 years of rebuilding.
I didn't know Khabibulin played for the Devils.

Even putting that aside he was 25-8-7 in his final year as a Blackhawk and he got the hawks to the WCF. Was the team a good one? Absolutely. But those are still starters numbers. Never mind he played more playoff games than Huet.

Again the term and $ were a bit much, but looking at how much today's starters are getting paid...

GreatKeith is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-05-2013, 01:55 PM
  #147
Red Deer Rebel
Registered User
 
Red Deer Rebel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Red Deer
Posts: 2,376
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by SK13 View Post
I count 3 years, 9 months - not 5 years.

And if we compare timelines, we see the moment Calgary acknowledged their need for a rebuild (more vaguely than the Oilers did) was February 2013 - with the assertion that Iginla was on the trade market.

6 months and counting. Are the Flames going to be a bonafide playoff team in November of 2016?
I agree with your points, but the Flames should have gotten rid of Iginla long before they did, because he had no value left by the time they did trade him.

They also got nada for Kipper, and nothing of value for Regehr.

Dustin Penner was traded for a better package than any of Calgary's "elite core". That should tell us something. Good managers shouldn't be the last people on the planet to figure out declining vets lose value quickly.

All of these players should have been dealt for much more than Calgary received.

Red Deer Rebel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-05-2013, 01:56 PM
  #148
guymez
The Seldom Seen Kid
 
guymez's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Calgary
Country: Canada
Posts: 12,557
vCash: 0
Quote:
Originally Posted by SK13 View Post
I count 3 years, 9 months - not 5 years.

And if we compare timelines, we see the moment Calgary acknowledged their need for a rebuild (more vaguely than the Oilers did) was February 2013 - with the assertion that Iginla was on the trade market.

6 months and counting. Are the Flames going to be a bonafide playoff team in November of 2016?
December of this year will be 4 years....the end of this season will be almost 5 years as I stated. It looks to be over 5 years before this team is a legit playoff team based on the current trajectory.

Only in the world of Oilers management and apologist Oiler fans (not saying you are) does it take that long to be a bubble playoff team.

I think MacT can speed that up and I also think that had he been in the GM chair since the beginning the team would likely be better than it is right now. MacT is the only saving grace on this Management team IMO. I just dont know if he alone can off set the sheer amount of incompetence that currently exists.



I am willing to bet the Flames do it a lot quicker than the Oilers will.

guymez is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-05-2013, 01:57 PM
  #149
Del Preston
Bobblehead Nelly
 
Del Preston's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Country: Canada
Posts: 9,487
vCash: 0
Quote:
Originally Posted by guymez View Post
Yes thats my opinion. Khabby was no better than a backup when the Oilers signed him.

He hasnt played over 50 games and had a SV% of over .910 since 2003/04. Its clear that he hadnt been an effective starter since that season and with advancing age (and too much mileage) he wasn't going to return to that form anytime soon.

This isn't revisionist history either...I said as much the day the Oilers signed him.
You're criticizing the Oilers for signing him, yet at the same time are calling the Blackhawks 'smart enough' to view him as a backup even though they wanted to bring him back as a starter.

Del Preston is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
09-05-2013, 01:57 PM
  #150
SK13
Mo'Linguish
 
SK13's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Edmonton
Country: Canada
Posts: 24,223
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by Asher View Post
It really depends what Burke can do. He got lucky (although you could argue one needs to be good to be lucky), by adding players like Gardiner, Lupul, and Phaneuf. I'm not a fan of the Kessel deal, but even I can't deny that he's been a good player for them. There are too many variables to project forward with a guy like Burke because you know he's going to be active.
If the Oilers had wished to avoid the rebuild as the Flames have done (and others have done), it would only be easy. They did it for years previously.

People forget that the 08/09 team was in a playoff spot in the last month of the season. They choked it away. It wasn't a bottom feeder, it was a mediocre bubble team.

SK13 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 05:16 AM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. ©2014 All Rights Reserved.