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Simon Gagne- Update 10/15/14: Signs 1 year deal with the Bruins.

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Old
09-05-2013, 03:07 PM
  #476
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Originally Posted by OccupySouthBroadSt View Post
Ha ha...

Anyway..it's not really about hate from my perspective at least. I don't hate Gagne at all. However, I do dislike the Flyers recycling former Flyers who are essentially past due all the time.

I just don't understand the continued hype with the guy and the amount of deference he is receiving when in the last 3 years or so he hasn't shown much of anything. To me it just seems like nostalgia.

Moreover, what people should be excited about is this....



...hey if Gagne can win his spot so be it. It's good that the Flyers are taking a wait and see noncommital approach with him...not that they have much choice until they can place Pronger on LTIR..but still.
I haven't seen much over hyping of Gagne, just people who think he can score @ 15 goals and has a better IQ then any of the young guys at this point. He still skates really well, knows where to be on both ends of the ice and is never out of position.

They have a young 20 y/o center trying to find his game so why put a 19 y/o out of position on his wing?

I like McGinn as a third line grinder especially in their conference but he isn't going to give you any more offense and he isn't nearly as good defensively.
I am not going to cry if Gagne doesn't make the team but if he is healthy he can be a huge asset for Coots on the 3rd line.

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09-05-2013, 03:24 PM
  #477
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Gagne is underrated. All the games I saw him play in LA were pretty solid. The guy rarely ever makes mistakes defensively and he's actually one of the only Flyers that seemed to want to put a shot on goal rather then try and pass through three opposing players. He's shown his value on the PK and PP, has great veteran presence, and I think he still has more left then it seems because he hasn't played much over the past two years.

He's a great two-way player that would fit in great on a third line (will be second or first line by the end of the year) and for the price it will take to get a player of his caliber it would be stupid to pass on him.

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09-05-2013, 04:12 PM
  #478
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I've said it earlier but I will say it again. All the accusations of Gagne sucking are greatly over-exaggerated. The guy scored at roughly a .44 PPG pace. That is more than we can realistically hope for any of the alternatives to Gagne (plus his defense is still better than the alternatives as well, despite what the all-knowing HFBoards scouts have to say). No one is expecting him to come in and score 40 goals. No one thinks he is going to (or should) get top line PP or ES minutes. No one is saying that if he gets beaten out in camp by a young guy that he should still get the job.

If Gagne is re-signed to a reasonable deal (i.e. a one year, low cap hit deal), he's our best bet. McGinn, Straka, Akeson, etc. might be better than Gagne in a year or two, but right now there is nothing to indicate that they are better this year. If Gagne gets hurt, oh well. Move on and someone steps in anyway. If he stays healthy, McGinn, Straka, Akeson, and the rest will all be there next year ready to be mediocre third liners. If someone earns the job in camp, give it to them. But you don't earn the job by having a bunch of bloggers say how good you are, and you don't lose the job by having a bunch of bloggers saying how much you suck.

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09-05-2013, 04:56 PM
  #479
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Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
I've said it earlier but I will say it again. All the accusations of Gagne sucking are greatly over-exaggerated. The guy scored at roughly a .44 PPG pace. That is more than we can realistically hope for any of the alternatives to Gagne (plus his defense is still better than the alternatives as well, despite what the all-knowing HFBoards scouts have to say). No one is expecting him to come in and score 40 goals. No one thinks he is going to (or should) get top line PP or ES minutes. No one is saying that if he gets beaten out in camp by a young guy that he should still get the job.

If Gagne is re-signed to a reasonable deal (i.e. a one year, low cap hit deal), he's our best bet. McGinn, Straka, Akeson, etc. might be better than Gagne in a year or two, but right now there is nothing to indicate that they are better this year. If Gagne gets hurt, oh well. Move on and someone steps in anyway. If he stays healthy, McGinn, Straka, Akeson, and the rest will all be there next year ready to be mediocre third liners. If someone earns the job in camp, give it to them. But you don't earn the job by having a bunch of bloggers say how good you are, and you don't lose the job by having a bunch of bloggers saying how much you suck.

I see you are in the office today? Get some fresh air and rethink this screed ..j/k

BTW nobody said he sucks...once again using extreme language to cloud the argument. Also..how bout we let camp decide if he gets a job before saying his potential competition hasn't shown anything to indicate they are better than Gagne. Again, the argument here is showing deference to him which looks like the Flyers are not really doing...so far..luckily

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09-05-2013, 04:58 PM
  #480
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I just hoped on behindthenet.ca and did some digging on Gagne. I don't want it to seem like I'm picking on the guy or hate him. I don't hate him at all. I just want to show what the stats say.

5 on 5 last year his most common linemates in order:
Giroux
Gus
Voracek
Luke Schenn
Kimmo

... So, other than Gus, 4 of the best players on the team.


His relative Corsi 5 on 5 is -3. Of forwards who played at least 20 games only Rinaldo, Hall, Talbot, and Fedotenko were worse.

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09-05-2013, 09:21 PM
  #481
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That's all there is to it, really. If some of us are overreacting, it's merely out of frustration due to the fact that it couldn't be more simple or more obvious.
What I can gather from this is that anything short of sunshine pumping when it comes to Gagne is frowned upon around here & considered "hating".


Last edited by LegionOfDoom91: 09-05-2013 at 09:35 PM.
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09-05-2013, 11:18 PM
  #482
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What I can gather from this is that anything short of sunshine pumping when it comes to Gagne is frowned upon around here & considered "hating".
Very true.. i dont get it either.

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09-06-2013, 12:09 AM
  #483
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I don't want them to offer Gagne a contract before camp not because I don't like Gagne, but more I want to let our young players have a goal. Best case scenario is the PTO so Gagne can teach them what it takes and give them serious competition from a player that can still play at the NHL level.

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09-06-2013, 04:48 AM
  #484
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Done with Gagne, he was what he was, but I'd rather see someone else step in and play 3rd line minutes.

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09-06-2013, 04:50 AM
  #485
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I'd have no problem with him attending camp. If he makes the team, great. If he doesn't, great for who does.

But if he's not invited, I can already picture that decision being held against Holmgren somewhere down the road. Which I think is ridiculous.

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09-06-2013, 05:01 PM
  #486
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Originally Posted by OccupySouthBroadSt View Post
I see you are in the office today? Get some fresh air and rethink this screed ..j/k
Haha. Yeah. First week on the job, not as heavy a load as I will soon have.

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BTW nobody said he sucks...once again using extreme language to cloud the argument. Also..how bout we let camp decide if he gets a job before saying his potential competition hasn't shown anything to indicate they are better than Gagne. Again, the argument here is showing deference to him which looks like the Flyers are not really doing...so far..luckily
People may never have used the word "sucks" to describe him (though I think in a reading of the whole thread there could be found an instance of it), but it seems implied by what else is said about him. Deference is what should be given to Gagne, much like my argument with Mez. You don't lose a spot to a no-name guy because you get injured and some kid has a decent string of games. You can lose that spot in camp to anyone, for sure. But going into the new season, the seasoned veteran, i.e. Gagne, is not the one with something to prove against a group of guys with a combined 20 or so NHL games with not a big investment involved (i.e. no big contract or high draft pick), nor is the seasoned veteran, i.e. Mez, the one with something prove against a guy with a total of 60 decent NHL games. It is entirely possible that neither will make the roster, either because they are traded/not re-signed or because they are out-played in camp or preseason by the youngins or Gus. But going in the youngins and Gus should not be given the benefit of the doubt based on a microscopic sample size compared to Gagne and Mez.

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09-06-2013, 07:07 PM
  #487
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Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
Deference is what should be given to Gagne, much like my argument with Mez. You don't lose a spot to a no-name guy because you get injured and some kid has a decent string of games. You can lose that spot in camp to anyone, for sure. But going into the new season, the seasoned veteran, i.e. Gagne, is not the one with something to prove against a group of guys with a combined 20 or so NHL games with not a big investment involved (i.e. no big contract or high draft pick), nor is the seasoned veteran, i.e. Mez, the one with something prove against a guy with a total of 60 decent NHL games. It is entirely possible that neither will make the roster, either because they are traded/not re-signed or because they are out-played in camp or preseason by the youngins or Gus. But going in the youngins and Gus should not be given the benefit of the doubt based on a microscopic sample size compared to Gagne and Mez.
I'm not sure what you are asking for here. Basically that the spots should be Mez and Gagne's to lose?

To me, everything is open to competition within reason and no one gets the benefit of the doubt. EVERYONE gets an equal opportunity to fight for the spot, but NOONE is given some deference based on past glory that they haven't shown in 2-3 years. I'm not saying that their past success shouldn't be a factor, but so are their prospective cap hits, injury risk, etc.

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09-06-2013, 11:03 PM
  #488
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Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
Haha. Yeah. First week on the job, not as heavy a load as I will soon have.



People may never have used the word "sucks" to describe him (though I think in a reading of the whole thread there could be found an instance of it), but it seems implied by what else is said about him. Deference is what should be given to Gagne, much like my argument with Mez. You don't lose a spot to a no-name guy because you get injured and some kid has a decent string of games. You can lose that spot in camp to anyone, for sure. But going into the new season, the seasoned veteran, i.e. Gagne, is not the one with something to prove against a group of guys with a combined 20 or so NHL games with not a big investment involved (i.e. no big contract or high draft pick), nor is the seasoned veteran, i.e. Mez, the one with something prove against a guy with a total of 60 decent NHL games. It is entirely possible that neither will make the roster, either because they are traded/not re-signed or because they are out-played in camp or preseason by the youngins or Gus. But going in the youngins and Gus should not be given the benefit of the doubt based on a microscopic sample size compared to Gagne and Mez.
So you do believe in giving Gagne deference or showing favoritism simply because he's a vet and a former Flyers fan favorite? This is precisely what I'm against and it looks like some more pragmatic minds aren't as committal as you either...

Management wouldn't be making such statements to the public if they fully endorsed Gagne and thought he was the best option like many others seem to think


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Assistant general manager Ron Hextall said he wasn’t sure whether Simon Gagne would get a camp tryout next week. Hextall did say that he and Holmgren had discussed looking at “three or four” NHL veterans, who remain un-signed, but there was nothing firm on that right now. ...

http://www.csnphilly.com/hockey-phil...it-and-impress

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09-06-2013, 11:29 PM
  #489
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Management wouldn't be making such statements to the public if they fully endorsed Gagne and thought he was the best option like many others seem to think
It doesn't look good for him but even if he does get that try-out the odds would be stacked against him anyway. When's the last time Homer signed a veteran on a try-out to a contract? I can't think of one.

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09-06-2013, 11:35 PM
  #490
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It doesn't look good for him but even if he does get that try-out the odds would be stacked against him anyway. When's the last time Homer signed a veteran on a try-out to a contract? I can't think of one.
I think Blair Betts was.

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09-06-2013, 11:41 PM
  #491
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I think Blair Betts was.
Guerin got a tryout and sucked to high heaven....I'm sure Gagne if he does get a tryout wouldn't be as bad a Guerin was but the fact that the Flyers management is considering other veteran options is a telling sign of what they feel Gagne has to offer which again hasn't been anything great in the last 3 seasons. Hence why the deference by some posters has been baffling to me...

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09-06-2013, 11:47 PM
  #492
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Guerin got a tryout and sucked to high heaven....I'm sure Gagne if he does get a tryout wouldn't be as bad a Guerin was but the fact that the Flyers management is considering other veteran options is a telling sign of what they feel Gagne has to offer which again hasn't been anything great in the last 3 seasons. Hence why the deference has been baffling to me...
Nylander was after Guerin, I honestly can't even remember anything he did during the try-out he might've even been hurt the whole time.

I at least remember Guerin scoring a goal against Toronto in the annual game up in London I believe it was.

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09-06-2013, 11:57 PM
  #493
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Nylander was after Guerin, I honestly can't even remember anything he did during the try-out he might've even been hurt the whole time.

I at least remember Guerin scoring a goal against Toronto in the annual game up in London I believe it was.
Yeah I think Nylander was mostly hurt....he may have played maybe 1 preseason game if I remember correctly.

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09-07-2013, 03:26 AM
  #494
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Wasn't Jim Dowd also coming to camp on a PTO some years ago?

It seems that most of the time players are only invited to do somebody a favour (e.g. Jagr in case of Nylander) or to have a Veteran challenging a couple of prospects for the same job just to see how they react under pressure. In some cases it may even have been only to get the right number of healthy bodies for the scrimmage game.

They have seen enough of Gagne last season and already know what they get which is still a solid hockey player. I guess right now it's more related to the cap situation.


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09-07-2013, 08:29 AM
  #495
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Dowd and Betts were are the 2 in the last 10 years that have been signed. There have been many who have tried though. Guerin, Berard, Nylander, Bell and others have not been so successful. Hexys comments have me thinking Gagne has an uphill battle

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09-07-2013, 08:41 PM
  #496
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I just hoped on behindthenet.ca and did some digging on Gagne. I don't want it to seem like I'm picking on the guy or hate him. I don't hate him at all. I just want to show what the stats say.

5 on 5 last year his most common linemates in order:
Giroux
Gus
Voracek
Luke Schenn
Kimmo

... So, other than Gus, 4 of the best players on the team.


His relative Corsi 5 on 5 is -3. Of forwards who played at least 20 games only Rinaldo, Hall, Talbot, and Fedotenko were worse.
This is some pretty damning evidence. I like im on a third line role though... If it means moving Mezzy to bring him back, not sure I want that though.

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09-08-2013, 09:47 AM
  #497
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Originally Posted by OccupySouthBroadSt View Post
So you do believe in giving Gagne deference or showing favoritism simply because he's a vet and a former Flyers fan favorite? This is precisely what I'm against and it looks like some more pragmatic minds aren't as committal as you either...

Management wouldn't be making such statements to the public if they fully endorsed Gagne and thought he was the best option like many others seem to think
I think he gets deference because of what he has done in his career and what he did last year, especially in comparing him with a number of no-name young kids with little to NHL experience. The young kids don't get the deference. That makes no sense (unless it is some high potential prospect you have a lot invested in). I'm not saying Gagne is great or that the other guys suck, only that on paper going in to camp I'd but Gagne on the top of my list and let the other guys knock him off the top. It has nothing to do with his Flyers history. If they brought in someone else that was a veteran I'd give them deference as well over a group of nobodies. The nobodies can earn it, but I don't understand why you would take an established guy and not give him a chance, then give a bunch of no namers a chance because (fill in the blank because I'm not sure what your reasoning is other than saying Gagne is done...despite the fact that he scored at .44 PPG last season and even higher the year before all while battling injuries, which I think we can all agree is more than what any of the young guys will likely score).

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09-08-2013, 10:40 AM
  #498
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I think he gets deference because of what he has done in his career and what he did last year, especially in comparing him with a number of no-name young kids with little to NHL experience. The young kids don't get the deference. That makes no sense (unless it is some high potential prospect you have a lot invested in). I'm not saying Gagne is great or that the other guys suck, only that on paper going in to camp I'd but Gagne on the top of my list and let the other guys knock him off the top. It has nothing to do with his Flyers history. If they brought in someone else that was a veteran I'd give them deference as well over a group of nobodies. The nobodies can earn it, but I don't understand why you would take an established guy and not give him a chance, then give a bunch of no namers a chance because (fill in the blank because I'm not sure what your reasoning is other than saying Gagne is done...despite the fact that he scored at .44 PPG last season and even higher the year before all while battling injuries, which I think we can all agree is more than what any of the young guys will likely score).
You sound like Ken Hitchcock or something. What exactly are you saying..that the Flyers should have tied up a roster spot for Gagne out of deference before camp even starts because you consider his potential competition inferior? This makes no sense from a player development perspective.

Again the fact that Hextall is meh on Gagne should say something. He's not showing deference and shouldn't. He saw Gagne in LA and knows that Sutter benched his butt so he is probably giving Holmgren some good insight on why there might be better options which is not limited to rookies but also other unsigned veterans.

Now of course you are moving the goalposts a bit and saying established veterans should get deference over rookies b/c somebody other than Gagne might be brought in but you fail to get the point that Gagne is not as good an option as you and others have been spouting on here and that has been my whole argument the whole time....whether it's a rookie that should be given more of a chance or another vet which Hextall and company are considering.

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09-08-2013, 11:54 AM
  #499
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Originally Posted by OccupySouthBroadSt View Post
You sound like Ken Hitchcock or something. What exactly are you saying..that the Flyers should have tied up a roster spot for Gagne out of deference before camp even starts because you consider his potential competition inferior? This makes no sense from a player development perspective.
Why isn't it good from a player development perspective? We have three or four guys who maybe one day will eventually possibly be third liners. Players that can easily be replaced through UFA and the draft. It's not like Gagne signing a one-year deal is going to stifle the development of Scott Laughton or Sean Couturier. It is going to postpone the possibility of McGinn et al. making it to the third line this season, and that is only if one of that group doesn't outplay Gagne. They will still be there next year and when an injury occurs to one of the forwards.

Quote:
Again the fact that Hextall is meh on Gagne should say something. He's not showing deference and shouldn't. He saw Gagne in LA and knows that Sutter benched his butt so he is probably giving Holmgren some good insight on why there might be better options which is not limited to rookies but also other unsigned veterans.
And that may be true. I'm sure the decision to sign any player takes a lot of insight and looking at other options. I also never said the Flyers shouldn't bring someone else in. I'm not sure who the Flyers are looking at, but I would definitely agree that there may be better options out there. I'm just talking about Gagne because his name is being floated by management, media, etc.

Quote:
Now of course you are moving the goalposts a bit and saying established veterans should get deference over rookies b/c somebody other than Gagne might be brought in but you fail to get the point that Gagne is not as good an option as you and others have been spouting on here and that has been my whole argument the whole time....whether it's a rookie that should be given more of a chance or another vet which Hextall and company are considering.
And why is he not as good an option? Because you watched every game last year and don't think he can finish or skate well or play defense? He still put up respectable numbers despite his shortcomings, and has consistently done so throughout his career in the face of injuries etc. Gagne is completely capable of playing third line wing on this team based on what he has done up to an including last season. If he can't hang in camp, then ok. But going in, I wouldn't put Tye "16 Games" McGinn or Jason "One Goal on one Shot" Akeson above him simply because they are younger. Which, really, when it comes down to it, isn't that what you are saying...let someone else have a shot because they are younger?

You may not be using those words, but all the "player development" and "Gagne isn't as good an option" talk sure seems like it. Because even if you don't think Gagne is the best option based on 25 games or whatever last year, how can you think that a group of kids with less than that combined be a better option? The general consensus on here (again, without ever using these words) seems to be "because they are younger."

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09-08-2013, 11:24 PM
  #500
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Why isn't it good from a player development perspective? We have three or four guys who maybe one day will eventually possibly be third liners. Players that can easily be replaced through UFA and the draft. It's not like Gagne signing a one-year deal is going to stifle the development of Scott Laughton or Sean Couturier. It is going to postpone the possibility of McGinn et al. making it to the third line this season, and that is only if one of that group doesn't outplay Gagne. They will still be there next year and when an injury occurs to one of the forwards.

.....

If he can't hang in camp, then ok. But going in, I wouldn't put Tye "16 Games" McGinn or Jason "One Goal on one Shot" Akeson above him simply because they are younger. Which, really, when it comes down to it, isn't that what you are saying...let someone else have a shot because they are younger?

You may not be using those words, but all the "player development" and "Gagne isn't as good an option" talk sure seems like it. Because even if you don't think Gagne is the best option based on 25 games or whatever last year, how can you think that a group of kids with less than that combined be a better option? The general consensus on here (again, without ever using these words) seems to be "because they are younger."
I kind of see the player development angle and agree with it, but would still give Gagne a try out with no guarantee.

McGinn looked very good to me. Even before the Brown fight, he took a couple really cheap head shots that hurt his game. His skating was better and he can play. If he has continued to improve over the summer, he'll be a good option.

Akeson might fill a 'small forward' need down the road, if Read leaves, but probably not this year.

Laughton is one option, but he has to make the team too. He will get a chance, and I can see him as 4C and Talbot on 3LW, as a good checking compliment to Coots and Read.

Raffl was brought over because he might have something to offer too, and he's an older FA.

Straka by all accounts has been impressive.

Noebels is a guy who I think might also be ready to be an NHL player this year.

Cousins probably isn't ready, but he has the kind of smarts and skill that sometime flourish when given a chance to play with better players.

Given so many possibilities of guys who 'might' step and earn the spot, I think it will make for a very competitive camp, and one of those guys might distinguish himself as someone who can do more for the team than Gagne can.

We'll see.

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