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Old
09-06-2013, 08:00 AM
  #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Qward View Post
With Burke talking about making the Flames bigger and Ottawa having problems re-signing Cowen, I wonder if there is a deal that could be made?

To Calgary:
Jared Cowen (sign and trade)
Mark Stone
Colin Greening

To Ottawa:
Sean Monahan


Calgary loses a potential top 3 player, but gains a potential top 3 player in Stone, they get a hard worker in Greening that is defensively sound, fastest player on the Senators, grinds in the corners and can score. He has played on Spezza's wing but can fit on any line. The also get Cowen that has top pairing potential. Some people say he is injury prone, but this is untrue. He injured his knee in his draft year (early predictions had him going top 3) his surgery was 100% successful and has had no further problems. In the AHL he had a torn ligament in his hip. Surgery was done and he came back early and had an immediate impact. He is 6'5, hits like a mac truck, has a boomer of a shot and will drop the gloves in a heart beat. Think rookie Phaneuf.

Ottawa gets a very good young player that they can let develope. It saves Ottawa Greenings 800K and Cowens asking price (somewhere in the high three's.) It also opens up spots for some rookie that are ready to break in.


Thoughts?
Neither team does this. Some reasons off the top of my head :

Sens :
- We are already very deep and young up the middle : Spezza, Turris, Zibanejad, Pageau, Smith already. Monahan is not going to bounce either Spezza or Turris, and arguably Zibanejad, and is not going to thrive in a bottom 6 role.
- Greening isn't a high profile player, but fills a need for us
- Stone is looking to be a gem in the 6th round. His only fault is his skating, but that can be improved. His shot, vision, hockey sense are great, and some in the Sens clan think he is being groomed to be Spezza's winger one day
- Would love Monahan, especially being an Ottawa kid, but there is no room for him in the middle, and the pressure here in his hometown might be too much for him
- We don't have anyone to replace Cowen. His upside is huge, and him leaving would leave a huge hole in our D
- huge potential bust factor if we made this trade. If Monahan doesn't pan out and/or wilts under the pressure in his home town, and with the upside of Stone and Cowen, this could backfire huge for us. Also, Cowen and Greening are proven, Monahan hasn't played an NHL shift yet

Flames :
- as others have mentioned, Calgary has needed a top line C for eons. Monahan hasn't proven a thing yet, but he is their best chance in years at getting that, and he appears to be a mature kid with a good head on his shoulders
- Calgary finally has started building a bit of a prospect cupboard with kids like Monahan, Baertschi, etc. They need to continue to develop them, and keep building their prospect base, not trade it for (admittedly young) NHL players

Quote:
Originally Posted by Djp View Post
The "=" are debateable ....I will leave it alone for a minute.

the concept of a 3 for 1 deal is usually a fair deal.

Calgary is in a rebuilding mode right now. You want the to trade you their top 10 draft pick for 3 surplus players....this isnt going to happen.

If they were already established at center with 2 young Centers and they needs other complementary players then this deal would make more sense. right now it doesnt.

They need a front line Center to rebuild this team.

As for the value of the deal....assume the 1st round pick is around 19-23....

Greening will be a UFA after this season---why does a rebuilding tem want to deal with that? Greening in terms of skill is a 3rd line player at best.

Cowen may be a middle pairing Dman

Stone may be a 2nd line player.


You are asking for a 1st line play for a bunch of extra parts.

Are you willing to trade Zibanejad for a low 1st a UFA after this season who is a 3rd liner at best and a 2nd pairing Dman at best.
Cowen IS a middle pairing Dman already, and MAY be a top pairing Dman.
Stone certainly has top 6 upside, and may be a long term winger for Spezza on our top line.
At this point, you can't say that Monahan IS anything, let alone a top line center. He certainly could be, but at this point he is only potential until he proves it. Monahan, as of right now, is no more a top line center than Zibanejad is (though Zibanejad is more proven than Monahan obviously).

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Old
09-06-2013, 08:13 AM
  #52
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Flames get ripped off, why do they trade their future for the main piece being Cowan who is sidelined all of the time.

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09-06-2013, 08:17 AM
  #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by internetdotcom View Post
Neither team does this. Some reasons off the top of my head :

Sens :
- We are already very deep and young up the middle : Spezza, Turris, Zibanejad, Pageau, Smith already. Monahan is not going to bounce either Spezza or Turris, and arguably Zibanejad, and is not going to thrive in a bottom 6 role.
- Greening isn't a high profile player, but fills a need for us
- Stone is looking to be a gem in the 6th round. His only fault is his skating, but that can be improved. His shot, vision, hockey sense are great, and some in the Sens clan think he is being groomed to be Spezza's winger one day
- Would love Monahan, especially being an Ottawa kid, but there is no room for him in the middle, and the pressure here in his hometown might be too much for him
- We don't have anyone to replace Cowen. His upside is huge, and him leaving would leave a huge hole in our D
- huge potential bust factor if we made this trade. If Monahan doesn't pan out and/or wilts under the pressure in his home town, and with the upside of Stone and Cowen, this could backfire huge for us. Also, Cowen and Greening are proven, Monahan hasn't played an NHL shift yet

Flames :
- as others have mentioned, Calgary has needed a top line C for eons. Monahan hasn't proven a thing yet, but he is their best chance in years at getting that, and he appears to be a mature kid with a good head on his shoulders
- Calgary finally has started building a bit of a prospect cupboard with kids like Monahan, Baertschi, etc. They need to continue to develop them, and keep building their prospect base, not trade it for (admittedly young) NHL players



Cowen IS a middle pairing Dman already, and MAY be a top pairing Dman.
Stone certainly has top 6 upside, and may be a long term winger for Spezza on our top line.
At this point, you can't say that Monahan IS anything, let alone a top line center. He certainly could be, but at this point he is only potential until he proves it. Monahan, as of right now, is no more a top line center than Zibanejad is (though Zibanejad is more proven than Monahan obviously).
Monahan is better than anything in the Sens system imo, 2nd pairing defencemen are more easier to find than young 1/2c players. His upside is undeniable and the Flames would be stupid to do this trade ainec.

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Old
09-06-2013, 09:38 AM
  #54
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This is brutal for calgary

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09-06-2013, 10:15 AM
  #55
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I feel for the Flames and their fans.

They've got their savior in hand now and it's silly to offer anything for him.

Any Monahan trading proposals should be closed because they're pointless.

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09-06-2013, 10:26 AM
  #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Apocalyptic Mist View Post
Flames get ripped off, why do they trade their future for the main piece being Cowan who is sidelined all of the time.
Yeah, he sucks. Geoff Cowan literally never plays anymore. But what does that have to do with Jared Cowen?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Apocalyptic Mist View Post
Monahan is better than anything in the Sens system imo, 2nd pairing defencemen are more easier to find than young 1/2c players. His upside is undeniable and the Flames would be stupid to do this trade ainec.
This is the problem with HFboards. Young players yet to play a single shift in the NHL >>> young, PRODUCING NHLers. Guess its a good thing that the Sens hung onto Daigle way back when, rather than trade him for a producing young NHLer, huh?

And Cowen IS already a 2nd pairing Dman, with 1st pairing upside. Monahan has 1C upside, but has to prove it before anyone calls him a 1 or even 2 C. That is why I'm saying Cowen has 1st pairing UPSIDE, not calling him a 1st pairing guy (yet).

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09-06-2013, 10:27 AM
  #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Apocalyptic Mist View Post
Monahan is better than anything in the Sens system imo, 2nd pairing defencemen are more easier to find than young 1/2c players. His upside is undeniable and the Flames would be stupid to do this trade ainec.
Monahan is also not Nathan MacKinnon, I'm convinced after reading this thread alot of Calgary fans have those two players mixed up.

edit: For the record, I think this would be a ridiculous trade for Ottawa to do and this would be known as one of the more hilarious trade proposals looking back in a few years time. Seen too many non top 3 picks become good not great players in the past decade.

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Old
09-06-2013, 10:32 AM
  #58
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There's major underrating of Stone going on in this thread.

Stone > Noesen easily. Stone has 1st line potential. Awesome junior career. Last year in Binghamton he started on the 3rd line with grinders and was playing hurt (rib injury I believe). So he started slow in the points department but I believe finished up the last 30 games at ppg and ended up leading the team in scoring.


I really like Monahan. I like like him more than Flames fans, believe me, being from Ottawa. But OP is overpayment for him no doubt.

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09-06-2013, 11:30 AM
  #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by internetdotcom View Post
Yeah, he sucks. Geoff Cowan literally never plays anymore. But what does that have to do with Jared Cowen?



This is the problem with HFboards. Young players yet to play a single shift in the NHL >>> young, PRODUCING NHLers. Guess its a good thing that the Sens hung onto Daigle way back when, rather than trade him for a producing young NHLer, huh?

And Cowen IS already a 2nd pairing Dman, with 1st pairing upside. Monahan has 1C upside, but has to prove it before anyone calls him a 1 or even 2 C. That is why I'm saying Cowen has 1st pairing UPSIDE, not calling him a 1st pairing guy (yet).
Theirs no problem with placing high value on a player of Monahan's calibre, especially in the situation the Flames are in... and especially for a player who spent most of his career sidelined with injury. Thats russian roulette for the Flames org. High upside prospect > scraps.

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09-06-2013, 11:35 AM
  #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TSA0402 View Post
Monahan is also not Nathan MacKinnon, I'm convinced after reading this thread alot of Calgary fans have those two players mixed up.

edit: For the record, I think this would be a ridiculous trade for Ottawa to do and this would be known as one of the more hilarious trade proposals looking back in a few years time. Seen too many non top 3 picks become good not great players in the past decade.
Except for the fact that I absolutely despise the Flames and Monahan was picked 6th. What is being offered in the op to the Flames should be insulting to their fans. Start with Karlsson I say.

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09-06-2013, 11:39 AM
  #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Apocalyptic Mist View Post
Except for the fact that I absolutely despise the Flames and Monahan was picked 6th. What is being offered in the op to the Flames should be insulting to their fans. Start with Karlsson I say.
I cant edit for some reason but nvm the Monohan was picked 6th part I added in.

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Old
09-06-2013, 11:48 AM
  #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Apocalyptic Mist View Post
Except for the fact that I absolutely despise the Flames and Monahan was picked 6th. What is being offered in the op to the Flames should be insulting to their fans. Start with Karlsson I say.
So the Ottawa should offer the top3 defenceman in NHL for Sean Monahan who was just drafted few months ago 6th overall to get Flames intrested?

You seem to have very interesting opinions.

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Old
09-06-2013, 12:01 PM
  #63
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This is a brutal trade for the Sens. There's a reason why Ottawa is trying to ink him to the max contract length.

Cowen is going to be an absolute beast. He is already a bona-fide top 4Dman and has to the potential to become a top 10 NHL Dman. He's massive, skates well and has great hands for a man his size.

Monahan is still just a prospect. Hey may be a great NHLer, but right now, he projects to be a 2nd line center.

Hulking D men that can log 25mins per game, fight anyone, PK, and play some PP time are worth much more than 2nd line centers in this league.

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09-06-2013, 12:13 PM
  #64
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Cowen sounds so valuable. How long did you guys get out of his ELC? Always seems like he's injured, guess I'd be trying to trade him too.

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09-06-2013, 12:32 PM
  #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary83 View Post
Cowen sounds so valuable. How long did you guys get out of his ELC? Always seems like he's injured, guess I'd be trying to trade him too.
Since being drafted by the Sens, Cowen has 1 injury.

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09-06-2013, 12:59 PM
  #66
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Originally Posted by Benny FTW View Post
Since being drafted by the Sens, Cowen has 1 injury.
*1 serious injury that decreased his trade value.

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09-06-2013, 02:02 PM
  #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Apocalyptic Mist* View Post
*1 serious injury that decreased his trade value.
Cowen has missed 41 games in the shortened season, then played in all 10 playoff games. Never missed a game in his rookie year, and played all 7 playoff games

Taylor Hall missed three games in the shortened season, 21 games in his second season, and 17 games in his rookie year.

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09-06-2013, 02:06 PM
  #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Officer Farva View Post
Cowen has missed 41 games in the shortened season, then played in all 10 playoff games. Never missed a game in his rookie year, and played all 7 playoff games

Taylor Hall missed three games in the shortened season, 21 games in his second season, and 17 games in his rookie year.
Hall could probably be had for 2nd round pick or a b-level prospect.

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Old
09-06-2013, 04:44 PM
  #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hockeygirl95 View Post
Stone and Greening don't do much at all for the Flames.

Wotherspoon > Stone (in the Flames organization)
Jankowski > Stone (in the Flames organization)
Hanowski = Greening in the Flames organization)

Edit - obviously not Cowen, but Ottawa needs to add for the Flames to be interested.
Stone would immediately step in and be the Flames best forward prospect not named Baertschi or Monahan. Since being drafted he put up 245 points in two WHL seasons, was Team Canada's leading scorer at the World Juniors, and led his AHL team in scoring as a rookie, while playing through a rib injury.

Hanowski is no where near as valuable as Greening. Greening is a 6'3, 210lbs grinder with speed, capable of putting up 35-40P a season playing anywhere in the lineup. He's already a valuable NHLer, one that Hanowski can only hope to be like in the future.

If the Flames don't have need for a top prospect like Stone, or a valuable NHLer like Greening they must have the most stacked team in the NHL and the best prospect pool as well, which we both know is not the case.

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09-06-2013, 05:01 PM
  #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hale The Villain View Post
Stone would immediately step in and be the Flames best forward prospect not named Baertschi or Monahan. Since being drafted he put up 245 points in two WHL seasons, was Team Canada's leading scorer at the World Juniors, and led his AHL team in scoring as a rookie, while playing through a rib injury.

Hanowski is no where near as valuable as Greening. Greening is a 6'3, 210lbs grinder with speed, capable of putting up 35-40P a season playing anywhere in the lineup. He's already a valuable NHLer, one that Hanowski can only hope to be like in the future.

If the Flames don't have need for a top prospect like Stone, or a valuable NHLer like Greening they must have the most stacked team in the NHL and the best prospect pool as well, which we both know is not the case.
Stone is good, but he wouldn't be our best prospect. Isn't his skating questionable?

Calgary's got too many Colin Greening types on the roster or in the prospect system. No need for his type.

If these players are so good, keep them. We'll keep Monahan.

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09-06-2013, 05:04 PM
  #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ice Cream Man View Post
Stone is good, but he wouldn't be our best prospect. Isn't his skating questionable?

Calgary's got too many Colin Greening types on the roster or in the prospect system. No need for his type.

If these players are so good, keep them. We'll keep Monahan.
Stone looks damn near identical to Gui Latendresse skating wise. It's not a pretty sight.


Last edited by Habsawce: 09-06-2013 at 05:20 PM.
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Old
09-06-2013, 05:22 PM
  #72
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Originally Posted by Ice Cream Man View Post
Stone is good, but he wouldn't be our best prospect. Isn't his skating questionable?
His skating is below average for NHL standards, but he's improved greatly over the past couple years and I fully expect him to improve his skating to a level which can be considered average.

His resume since being drafted is what you would expect from a top prospect - I believe he should be regarded as one.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ice Cream Man View Post
If these players are so good, keep them. We'll keep Monahan.
This will undoubtedly be the case, as no GM would trade such a package for an completely unproven prospect, even if he's a high draft pick.

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09-06-2013, 05:59 PM
  #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hale The Villain View Post
His skating is below average for NHL standards, but he's improved greatly over the past couple years and I fully expect him to improve his skating to a level which can be considered average.

His resume since being drafted is what you would expect from a top prospect - I believe he should be regarded as one.
He was drafted in the 6th round. He has questionable skating. He can score, but there's other areas of his game that need work. Until that happens (if it does), he isn't a a top prospect; he's a good prospect. Nothing more.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hale The Villain View Post
This will undoubtedly be the case, as no GM would trade such a package for an completely unproven prospect, even if he's a high draft pick.
See: Eric Lindros. The type of trade you said has never happened... has happened.

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09-06-2013, 06:01 PM
  #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ice Cream Man View Post
He was drafted in the 6th round. He has questionable skating. He can score, but there's other areas of his game that need work. Until that happens (if it does), he isn't a a top prospect; he's a good prospect. Nothing more.
His only problem is skating. He's great at everything but skating.

His skating problem is very overblown.

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09-06-2013, 06:35 PM
  #75
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Originally Posted by Ice Cream Man View Post
He was drafted in the 6th round. He has questionable skating. He can score, but there's other areas of his game that need work. Until that happens (if it does), he isn't a a top prospect; he's a good prospect. Nothing more.
His offensive hockey sense is elite. He's shown an ability to play the sniper role with his great shot at the WJC, and his 164 assist in two WHL seasons should be evidence enough of his playmaking and vision ability. And this unique skills package is in a 6'3, 200lbs frame.

Skating is his only weakness, and it isn't nearly enough to stop him from becoming a top 6 producer.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ice Cream Man View Post
See: Eric Lindros. The type of trade you said has never happened... has happened.
Lindros is an obvious exception. The guy was hyped as the next Gretzky/Lemieux.

I would have given up a huge package for Crosby in 2005 as well.

Monahan isn't Lindros or Crosby.

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