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HOH Top 60 Centers of All-Time: Round 1 Preliminary Discussion Thread

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Old
09-05-2013, 03:15 PM
  #326
TheDevilMadeMe
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sentinel View Post
Here are the correct (and relevant) stats on Maltsev.

SS-72: 8 games, 0 goals.
SS-74: 8 games, 4 goals (not in the Top 10).
75/76 Series against NHL clubs with CSKA: 4 games, 1 goal
KK-81: 4 games, 1 goal.

0.615 PPG vs. Canada.
vs. CSSR: 63 games, 21 goals

My high opinion of Yakushev is based on several things: 72, 74, Spartak's championship win, etc. He was clutch all the way. The opposite of Maltsev.
Assists aren't relevant now?

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09-05-2013, 04:55 PM
  #327
ted1971
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I think everyone can agree that the top 20-30 are pretty easy. It's the #'s 50-80 which are the " Heated discussions" will occur at.

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09-05-2013, 05:11 PM
  #328
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When was he inducted into the HHOF? (pre-consolidation players)

I know many of you think that looking at the order of HHOF inductions is a worthless exercise, so feel free to ignore this. But I think that it can be a worthwhile view of what the hockey establishment thought of these players long after they retired.

I'm separating the pre-1910 generation from the 1910-1926 generation because I think there was a sense that guys who played earlier maybe should be inducted first. Whereas, on our list, most of us are going to take into account the fact that the 1910-1926 generation was drawing from a much larger talent pool than the pre-1910 one, which was drawing mostly from the Ottawa and Montreal metro areas.

I'm also combining the 1945 and 1947 classes for two reasons: 1) the 1945 class was composed entirely of deceased players, so 1947 was the first chance living players had of getting in. 2) the HHOF's official website may contain errors in which players were inducted in 1945 and 1947 (this has been posted elsewhere, and is basically irrelevant here if I'm going to just look at the two years together).

Keep in mind that the 1961 and 1962 classes were huge, and full of earlier-era amateur players.

*deceased at the time of his induction

Pre-1910 centers/rovers

1945/47: Dan Bain
1945/47: Hobey Baker*
1945/47: Russell Bowie
1945/47: Frank McGee*
1950: Harry Trihey*
1961: Frank Rankin*
1961: Oliver Seibert*
1961: Bruce Stuart (on his deathbed)
1962: Steamer Maxwell
1962: Billy McGimsie
1962: Marty Walsh*
1962: Harry (Rat) Westwick*
1962: Fred Whitcroft*
1965: Blair Russel*
1965: Ernie Russell*

1910-1926 centers/rovers

1945/47: Frank Nighbor
1945/47: Cyclone Taylor
1950: Newsy Lalonde
1950: Joe Malone
1952: Mickey MacKay*
1958: Frank Foyston
1958: Frank Fredrickson
1958: Dick Irvin* (had just died in 1957)
1958: Duke Keats
1959: Jack Adams
1973: Tommy Smith*
1974: Tommy Dunderdale*

Bernie Morris was never inducted to the HHOF, but accusations of being a draft dodger during WWI may have played a role.


Last edited by TheDevilMadeMe: 09-05-2013 at 05:30 PM. Reason: added dunderdale
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09-05-2013, 05:58 PM
  #329
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ted1971 View Post
I think everyone can agree that the top 20-30 are pretty easy. It's the #'s 50-80 which are the " Heated discussions" will occur at.
I'm not so sure of that.

I could see some fairly lively discussions even in the top 10.

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09-05-2013, 06:22 PM
  #330
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dennis Bonvie View Post
I'm not so sure of that.

I could see some fairly lively discussions even in the top 10.
I Think that the top 10 are really easy. To Me, there is a definite top tier that is above everyone else.

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09-05-2013, 06:57 PM
  #331
Kyle McMahon
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Originally Posted by Epsilon View Post
If one Olympic tournament is going to be factored in to a player with such a short career, are we going to start talking about Saku Koivu for the top 80?
Is six seasons really that short when pretty much all of it is prime years though? It's not like Toews took much time to emerge. He was Conn Smythe winner in his third season. I don't know why Koivu was brought up, the guy was either injured or a 2nd line player for 80% of his career.

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09-05-2013, 09:35 PM
  #332
Dennis Bonvie
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I Think that the top 10 are really easy. To Me, there is a definite top tier that is above everyone else.
You think most everyone will have the same top 10 players?

That would really surprise me.

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09-05-2013, 10:30 PM
  #333
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dennis Bonvie View Post
You think most everyone will have the same top 10 players?

That would really surprise me.
People can't even agree on #1 let alone a top-10. I'd be seriously surprised if there was anything resembling consensus on a top-10.

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09-05-2013, 11:31 PM
  #334
Hawkey Town 18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dennis Bonvie View Post
You think most everyone will have the same top 10 players?

That would really surprise me.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SaintPatrick33 View Post
People can't even agree on #1 let alone a top-10. I'd be seriously surprised if there was anything resembling consensus on a top-10.
I think the top 3 will be close to consensus, but there's plenty of room for argument after that. I do agree with one of the original points that was made...it only gets harder as you go further down the list.

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09-06-2013, 01:54 AM
  #335
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For what it's worth (perhaps not a lot?), THN compiled a list of the Top 10 Russian hockey players of all-time. This was their list:

1. Slava Fetisov
2. Vladislav Tretiak
3. Valeri Kharlamov
4. Anatoli Firsov
5. Alexander Maltsev
6. Sergei Fedorov

7. Valeri Vasiliev
8. Vsevolod Bobrov
9. Sergei Makarov
10. Pavel Bure

Here's a link to the list with brief blurbs about the players and HMs (that I think were picked by the website, not THN): http://www.1972summitseries.com/toptenrussians.html. The website's HMs include Larionov and Petrov.

Boris Mikhailov is the most onerous omission if you believe this board's top 100 list. IMO, Makarov is way too low too.

Here's an old hfboards thread discussing the list: http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...d.php?t=331192


Last edited by TheDevilMadeMe: 09-06-2013 at 02:05 AM.
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09-06-2013, 07:36 AM
  #336
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sentinel View Post
Here are the correct (and relevant) stats on Maltsev.

SS-72: 8 games, 0 goals.
SS-74: 8 games, 4 goals (not in the Top 10).
75/76 Series against NHL clubs with CSKA: 4 games, 1 goal
KK-81: 4 games, 1 goal.

0.615 PPG vs. Canada.
vs. CSSR: 63 games, 21 goals

My high opinion of Yakushev is based on several things: 72, 74, Spartak's championship win, etc. He was clutch all the way. The opposite of Maltsev.
People should also keep in mind that that a majority of the games (around 40) against Canada were against guys who were borderline AHL/NHL caliber.

I really can't see him being in and a guy like Joe Nieuwendyk getting left off peoples lists.

Or even Carbs in and Joe out.

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09-06-2013, 07:38 AM
  #337
Kyle McMahon
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Originally Posted by unknown33 View Post
For all the hate he gets what are the opinions on Joe Nieuwendyk for the #60-#80 range?
I'm not planning on assembling a list, but I would think I'd find room for Joe towards the end, at least based on some of the other names that have been proposed in this thread. Brad Richards seems to have a good deal of support for inclusion towards the end of lists, and I would definitely have Nieuwendyk ahead of him.

He took a lot of heat in here over his HOF induction, so people might be tempted to drop him down their list to reinforce their opinion that he was a bad induction. One thing I always come back to is his inclusion on the 2002 Olympic team. That team was loaded, considered one of the best ever assembled, and the guys who selected it saw fit to include Nieuwendyk amongst that esteemed group. He was a guy who did tons of little things to help win hockey games.

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09-06-2013, 08:17 AM
  #338
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Interesting Comparable

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
People should also keep in mind that that a majority of the games (around 40) against Canada were against guys who were borderline AHL/NHL caliber.
But this is true for all of his teammates and his contemporary European opposition when playing against Canada. Likewise the predecessors on all European teams from the sixties and before when playing against Canada.

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09-06-2013, 09:52 AM
  #339
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
People should also keep in mind that that a majority of the games (around 40) against Canada were against guys who were borderline AHL/NHL caliber.

.
Is this actually true? Canada sat out the World Championships from 1970-1976 protesting the ban on professional players because they were tired of the Soviets smacking their amateurs around. They then returned using NHL players in 1977. Other games against Canada would include the 72 Summit (NHL players), 74 Summit (WHA players), Canada Cups (Best-on-best), and tours against NHL and WHA teams.

But even if it were true, then this would apply:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
But this is true for all of his teammates and his contemporary European opposition when playing against Canada. Likewise the predecessors on all European teams from the sixties and before when playing against Canada.


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09-06-2013, 12:04 PM
  #340
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Assists certainly matter, but it's not like Maltsev piled them up in big games either. He was certainly very smooth and creative, but when the stakes were high, he often disappeared.

Putting Makarov so low is a travesty. The best Russian player ever. Too bad he was not a center

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09-06-2013, 12:32 PM
  #341
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Assists

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sentinel View Post
Assists certainly matter, but it's not like Maltsev piled them up in big games either. He was certainly very smooth and creative, but when the stakes were high, he often disappeared.

Putting Makarov so low is a travesty. The best Russian player ever. Too bad he was not a center
Assists were very sparsely awarded in International hockey until recently. So all players were equally impacted.

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09-06-2013, 04:20 PM
  #342
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Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
Assists were very sparsely awarded in International hockey until recently. So all players were equally impacted.
Actually, in such an environment, any player who contributes to the offense much more through playmaking than goalscoring, is going to be negatively impacted, and a disproportionate goalscorer the opposite.

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09-06-2013, 04:21 PM
  #343
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Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
People should also keep in mind that that a majority of the games (around 40) against Canada were against guys who were borderline AHL/NHL caliber.

I really can't see him being in and a guy like Joe Nieuwendyk getting left off peoples lists.

Or even Carbs in and Joe out.
And yet when Maltsev's team finally played an NHL all-star team they were on even ground.

I can't imagine Maltsev finishing behind Nieuwendyk.

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09-06-2013, 08:05 PM
  #344
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But this is true for all of his teammates and his contemporary European opposition when playing against Canada. Likewise the predecessors on all European teams from the sixties and before when playing against Canada.
Yes and I think we should keep that in mind.

Having non NHL guys when they deserve it is okay but not if we have to have them in all time periods as well.

Tony Hand?

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09-06-2013, 08:11 PM
  #345
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I dont know where you guy have Peter Stasny but he and his 2 brothers escape from communist czecholovakia is a great scary story.Many of us dont like Morice Abut but what he did for stasnys cant be forgoten.There were Machine Guns involved agents and spyies

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09-06-2013, 08:15 PM
  #346
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Originally Posted by Dennis Bonvie View Post
And yet when Maltsev's team finally played an NHL all-star team they were on even ground.

I can't imagine Maltsev finishing behind Nieuwendyk.
I think one needs to distinguish between any players individual talent and the team system they play in, especially with the early and non NHL Europeans.

Small samples of games and tournaments doesn't really tell us much as the NHLers were literally thrown together while Russian teams trained basically year round and in a total "like soccer" environment as well.

I doubt many people will have Maltsev behind Joe but we know how Joe actually stacked up to the best competition in the world over a long period of time.

Ffor Maltsev, is his scoring against Canada really that much of an indicator of his prowess over Joe?

It's just yet another example of giving a player the benefit of the doubt and putting the other player under the most severe of microscopes.

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09-06-2013, 08:19 PM
  #347
Dennis Bonvie
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I think one needs to distinguish between any players individual talent and the team system they play in, especially with the early and non NHL Europeans.

Small samples of games and tournaments doesn't really tell us much as the NHLers were literally thrown together while Russian teams trained basically year round and in a total "like soccer" environment as well.

I doubt many people will have Maltsev behind Joe but we know how Joe actually stacked up to the best competition in the world over a long period of time.

Ffor Maltsev, is his scoring against Canada really that much of an indicator of his prowess over Joe?

It's just yet another example of giving a player the benefit of the doubt and putting the other player under the most severe of microscopes.
I would assume most people that saw Maltsev play would agree he was a more talented hockey player than Joe Newy.

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09-06-2013, 08:25 PM
  #348
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Originally Posted by Dennis Bonvie View Post
I would assume most people that saw Maltsev play would agree he was a more talented hockey player than Joe Newy.
So was Kovalev, but we are judging careers here not talent levels, otherwise Kent Nilsson better be on a lot of lists here.

If people want Malstev on their lists fine, but at least try to ballpark slot him in against NHLer's during his career and make a case.

Which is exactly what people are doing to Joe BTW.

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09-06-2013, 10:22 PM
  #349
Dennis Bonvie
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So was Kovalev, but we are judging careers here not talent levels, otherwise Kent Nilsson better be on a lot of lists here.

If people want Malstev on their lists fine, but at least try to ballpark slot him in against NHLer's during his career and make a case.

Which is exactly what people are doing to Joe BTW.
I think Kent Nilsson will be.

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09-07-2013, 02:11 AM
  #350
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I ran out of room for Nilsson, and rather fast.

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