HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Western Conference > Pacific Division > Los Angeles Kings
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
Notices

Mathieu Garon invited to training camp (PTO)

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
09-05-2013, 07:34 PM
  #51
KINGS17
Smartest in the Room
 
KINGS17's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Country: United States
Posts: 15,548
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ziggy Stardust View Post

It make me puke.
Many times.

KINGS17 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-05-2013, 09:52 PM
  #52
Scrivezina
AMart Jazz Hands!!!
 
Scrivezina's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: RSM, CA
Posts: 2,223
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by TwoForRoughing View Post
Does anyone else think this might have something to do with Martin Jones not being signed yet?
I think it has everything to do with this....

Scrivezina is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-05-2013, 10:11 PM
  #53
kingsfan28
Viva Los Cucarachas!
 
kingsfan28's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Earth
Country: United States
Posts: 11,498
vCash: 500
I didn't know AHL player held out and thought most of the contracts were the same. Probably not the best thing to do for Jones.

kingsfan28 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
09-06-2013, 12:44 AM
  #54
kingsfan
#SutterforanOscar
 
kingsfan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Manitoba, Canada
Country: Canada
Posts: 9,027
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by KingCanadain1976 View Post
At this point Jones is holding out. So i wouldn't say hes a option at the moment. As for the reason why he isnt signed to mancheaster yet is in case there is a injury somewhere else or job opening he can always sign there or jones holds out he can sign to start there/ or just backup if no other offers. I would rather Garon come up and backup or play the odd game over haveing the ahl starter go up to back up or start a few game. I think that would hamper his developement. Garon has the experience to do that. Lets not forget the teams he was playing on had alot to do with that. I would be willing to gamble his numbers would be pretty good having this team in front of him. Lets not forget the last time he was here he didnt have this defensive team in front of him.l
He's had many different teams, good and bad in front of him, and it's not made a difference. He's either looking like a superstar or sucking the hind tit because he has little consistency.

kingsfan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-06-2013, 12:34 PM
  #55
KingCanadain1976
Registered User
 
KingCanadain1976's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Thunder Bay Ont. Can
Country: Canada
Posts: 6,161
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by kingsfan View Post
He's had many different teams, good and bad in front of him, and it's not made a difference. He's either looking like a superstar or sucking the hind tit because he has little consistency.
He hasnt had a team as good defensively as the kings are. Lets face it tampa edmonton columbus are no wear near as good as the kings defensively With our defense ill gamble hes more superstar then sucking.

KingCanadain1976 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-06-2013, 03:07 PM
  #56
kingsfan
#SutterforanOscar
 
kingsfan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Manitoba, Canada
Country: Canada
Posts: 9,027
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by KingCanadain1976 View Post
He hasnt had a team as good defensively as the kings are. Lets face it tampa edmonton columbus are no wear near as good as the kings defensively With our defense ill gamble hes more superstar then sucking.
How much do you care to gamble, but I'd bet the farm he doesn't see more than five games behind that defense, and if he does his numbers will just as sub par as last year.

Not to mention, no where do you explain why in 2008-2009, his numbers were worse on Edmonton than Dwayne Roloson, behind the same defense, or worse than Fluery and the great John Curry and Dany Sabourin in Pittsburgh.

Or in 2009-2010 and 2010-2011 why he had barely any better numbers than Steve Mason in Columbus, despite the fact Mason's been labelled as sub par every year after his rookie season and Garon, as backup, would have faced lesser competition than Mason, who would have faced the more elite teams.

Even in LA, his numbers in 2005-2006 were less than Jason labarbera while the following year, when his numbers again didn't really stand out above a 40 year old Seasn burke who was in his final season.

This past season is the only one since his Montreal days, maybe, where you could say he was clearly the better goalie, and even then, a .897 save percentage is less than average by a lot compared to the rest of the NHL. In fact, he ranked 62nd out of 82 goalies who even touched the ice in the NHL last year. Of the 20 goalies he beat, only nine played more than five games and most were third string goalies, like Justin Peters who got 19 games in Carolina.

As for Tampa Bay, they finished 26th in goals against average last year, with Colorado, Calgary, Carolina and Florida finishing below them. The goaltender with the most minutes for those teams were Seymon Varlamnov, Miikka Kiprusoff, Dan Ellis, Jacob Markstrom, and only Kiprusoff finished with a worse save percentage than Garon, so team defense doesn't have as much to do with it as you think. And Kiprusoff was so bad, he elected to retire.

Outside of his one full NHL season (as a backup) from before the lockout, Garon's all time career high save percentage in a season is .907, and that number would have had him ranked in a tie for 47th this year. The league average last season I believe is .910. So his all-time best season following the lockout isn't even league average. And he did that in a back-up role mostly as Cloutier and Burke ate up much of the main minutes that season.

Assuming jones resigns and pulls his head from his rear, his AHL career save percentage is like .921. Even if he drops 20 points off of that in coming to the NHL, he'd still have a better save percentage than Garon did last year. And if you compare what Quick did and Bernier did after coming to the NHL after having had at least one season (or most of one season) as a starter in the AHL, their save percentages in their first majority season in the NHL were .914 for Quick and .913 for Bernier.

I don't expect Jones to be as good as those two, but the track record for bringing guys up is pretty solid. Likely because they play behind a similar system in Manchester as they do in LA. It's why many kids fit in seamlessly as well. Garon's not been playing in our system really at all. By the time our system really started to evolve, Garon was pretty much gone.

Give me Jones over Garon any day.

kingsfan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-06-2013, 03:41 PM
  #57
KingCanadain1976
Registered User
 
KingCanadain1976's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Thunder Bay Ont. Can
Country: Canada
Posts: 6,161
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by kingsfan View Post
How much do you care to gamble, but I'd bet the farm he doesn't see more than five games behind that defense, and if he does his numbers will just as sub par as last year.

Not to mention, no where do you explain why in 2008-2009, his numbers were worse on Edmonton than Dwayne Roloson, behind the same defense, or worse than Fluery and the great John Curry and Dany Sabourin in Pittsburgh.

Or in 2009-2010 and 2010-2011 why he had barely any better numbers than Steve Mason in Columbus, despite the fact Mason's been labelled as sub par every year after his rookie season and Garon, as backup, would have faced lesser competition than Mason, who would have faced the more elite teams.

Even in LA, his numbers in 2005-2006 were less than Jason labarbera while the following year, when his numbers again didn't really stand out above a 40 year old Seasn burke who was in his final season.

This past season is the only one since his Montreal days, maybe, where you could say he was clearly the better goalie, and even then, a .897 save percentage is less than average by a lot compared to the rest of the NHL. In fact, he ranked 62nd out of 82 goalies who even touched the ice in the NHL last year. Of the 20 goalies he beat, only nine played more than five games and most were third string goalies, like Justin Peters who got 19 games in Carolina.

As for Tampa Bay, they finished 26th in goals against average last year, with Colorado, Calgary, Carolina and Florida finishing below them. The goaltender with the most minutes for those teams were Seymon Varlamnov, Miikka Kiprusoff, Dan Ellis, Jacob Markstrom, and only Kiprusoff finished with a worse save percentage than Garon, so team defense doesn't have as much to do with it as you think. And Kiprusoff was so bad, he elected to retire.

Outside of his one full NHL season (as a backup) from before the lockout, Garon's all time career high save percentage in a season is .907, and that number would have had him ranked in a tie for 47th this year. The league average last season I believe is .910. So his all-time best season following the lockout isn't even league average. And he did that in a back-up role mostly as Cloutier and Burke ate up much of the main minutes that season.

Assuming jones resigns and pulls his head from his rear, his AHL career save percentage is like .921. Even if he drops 20 points off of that in coming to the NHL, he'd still have a better save percentage than Garon did last year. And if you compare what Quick did and Bernier did after coming to the NHL after having had at least one season (or most of one season) as a starter in the AHL, their save percentages in their first majority season in the NHL were .914 for Quick and .913 for Bernier.

I don't expect Jones to be as good as those two, but the track record for bringing guys up is pretty solid. Likely because they play behind a similar system in Manchester as they do in LA. It's why many kids fit in seamlessly as well. Garon's not been playing in our system really at all. By the time our system really started to evolve, Garon was pretty much gone.

Give me Jones over Garon any day.
ok lets see ur comparing the 2008-2009 edmonton oilers defense to ours today Are u seriosusly suggesting there even close to what kinda team we have today? That team finished 11 in the west and gave up 248 goals Not even close to steller defense. Garon has not played in a defensive first system with a team that can play this system. Pittsburgh seriously they are a offensive team first not saying he played on all bad team but none of them are defensive minded there for hes going to face alot more shot then in la. goalies on crap teams aren't going to put up great numbers as a general rule. if a team is giving up 35 -40 shots a game ur not going to put up as good of numbers as if ur getting 20-30 shots. Playing in la s defensive first game style would help improve any decent goalies numbers. As you ve said he can be both hot and cold but even cold i would be willing to put half my fc on cash he would have a decent numbers. I would have a condition he signs and is at least the backup in mancheaster to start the season.

Garons save percentage would be better with the kings as he wouldnt be getting as many shots and he would stand up better imo. To save alot more typing im going to just say this Garon on the kings would give him the best team in front of him he s ever had and would respond with better then normal numbers for him . As for Jones being a better goalie i would say you maybe right in the long run for sure. But as of who i would rather start this year id take Garon over Jones.

KingCanadain1976 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-06-2013, 04:27 PM
  #58
kingsfan
#SutterforanOscar
 
kingsfan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Manitoba, Canada
Country: Canada
Posts: 9,027
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by KingCanadain1976 View Post
ok lets see ur comparing the 2008-2009 edmonton oilers defense to ours today Are u seriosusly suggesting there even close to what kinda team we have today?
No I'm not. Reread what I wrote. I'm comparing what he did to what other goalies did behind the exact same defense. Quite often, he did average or noticably below what other goalies, including guys like Dany Sabourin did. They played behind the same crappy D, explain how they did better?

Quote:
That team finished 11 in the west and gave up 248 goals Not even close to steller defense. Garon has not played in a defensive first system with a team that can play this system.
Neither did the other goalies on those same teams, but they did just as good or better, including ones that are weaker sometimes.

Quote:
Pittsburgh seriously they are a offensive team first not saying he played on all bad team but none of them are defensive minded there for hes going to face alot more shot then in la.
And this explains Dany Sabourin or John Curry doing better how?

Quote:
goalies on crap teams aren't going to put up great numbers as a general rule. if a team is giving up 35 -40 shots a game ur not going to put up as good of numbers as if ur getting 20-30 shots.
Once again, not debating that. just wondering why Garon can't do as good as other goalies under the same problems you describe here.

Quote:
Playing in la s defensive first game style would help improve any decent goalies numbers.
All the more reason to go with Jones, since he's been playing a similar system, and Garon hasn't.

Quote:
As for Jones being a better goalie i would say you maybe right in the long run for sure. But as of who i would rather start this year id take Garon over Jones.
Why, just due to 'experience'? When does Jones deserve a chance in your opinion?

kingsfan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-06-2013, 04:43 PM
  #59
KingCanadain1976
Registered User
 
KingCanadain1976's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Thunder Bay Ont. Can
Country: Canada
Posts: 6,161
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by kingsfan View Post
No I'm not. Reread what I wrote. I'm comparing what he did to what other goalies did behind the exact same defense. Quite often, he did average or noticably below what other goalies, including guys like Dany Sabourin did. They played behind the same crappy D, explain how they did better?



Neither did the other goalies on those same teams, but they did just as good or better, including ones that are weaker sometimes.



And this explains Dany Sabourin or John Curry doing better how?



Once again, not debating that. just wondering why Garon can't do as good as other goalies under the same problems you describe here.



All the more reason to go with Jones, since he's been playing a similar system, and Garon hasn't.



Why, just due to 'experience'? When does Jones deserve a chance in your opinion?
this is a convo on Garon playing with the kings not on how other goalies did with the same team but to answer your question they were better goalies then him. Perhaps who they played against might be different im not sure i havent gone into that depth on who he played etc. However if they played lower scoring team and Garon played the offensive teams might be the answer.

Imo Jones needs another full season in the ahl and should get a opportunity next season when scivens will be leaving due to ufa status. Another full season in the ahl and i would be more confident in his play. Having him bounce up and down between nhl and ahl imo wouldnt be good for his confidence. Yes this is just a gut feeling more then anything tangible. Jones will get his chance just not this year imo.

KingCanadain1976 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-06-2013, 05:03 PM
  #60
KingCanadain1976
Registered User
 
KingCanadain1976's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Thunder Bay Ont. Can
Country: Canada
Posts: 6,161
vCash: 500
I was just thinking martin jones spending a second year in mancheaster has some percedent to it as Bernier also spent 2 full years before he got a back up role in the nhl as well

KingCanadain1976 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-06-2013, 05:54 PM
  #61
Holden Caulfield
Moderator
Perennial Skeptic
 
Holden Caulfield's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Winnipeg
Country: Canada
Posts: 11,885
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by KingCanadain1976 View Post
I was just thinking martin jones spending a second year in mancheaster has some percedent to it as Bernier also spent 2 full years before he got a back up role in the nhl as well
Martin Jones is entering his 4th season in Manchester

BTW, it has been proven that systems barely if AT ALL effect goaltending stats. I mean guys like Tippett and Hitchcock improve save percentage by like .003/.004.

http://nhlnumbers.com/2012/8/11/the-dave-tippett-effect
http://nhlnumbers.com/2012/7/17/goal...-ken-hitchcock

__________________


Holden Caulfield is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
09-06-2013, 06:12 PM
  #62
KingCanadain1976
Registered User
 
KingCanadain1976's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Thunder Bay Ont. Can
Country: Canada
Posts: 6,161
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Holden Caulfield View Post
Martin Jones is entering his 4th season in Manchester

BTW, it has been proven that systems barely if AT ALL effect goaltending stats. I mean guys like Tippett and Hitchcock improve save percentage by like .003/.004.

http://nhlnumbers.com/2012/8/11/the-dave-tippett-effect
http://nhlnumbers.com/2012/7/17/goal...-ken-hitchcock
i was looking at wikiedia and it only had one season my applogy. The problem with stats is u can manipulate them to show whatever u want. Ilya Bryzgalov with tippet 930 save percentage accroding to ur stats u posted. Ilya Bryzgalov 900 last year and 909 the year before with flyers there isnt a difference yeah ok

bottom line goalies get better stats in a defense first system and this is why i think garon would post better numbers.


Last edited by KingCanadain1976: 09-06-2013 at 06:29 PM. Reason: looked at Ilya Bryzgalov stats and it doesnt look like his save percent was 930 more like 921
KingCanadain1976 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-07-2013, 12:35 AM
  #63
kingsfan
#SutterforanOscar
 
kingsfan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Manitoba, Canada
Country: Canada
Posts: 9,027
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by KingCanadain1976 View Post
this is a convo on Garon playing with the kings not on how other goalies did with the same team but to answer your question they were better goalies then him.
How other goalies do behind the same defense Garon has to play behind is very relevent. It shows how well he does in the same system, behind the same D, etc. as others. And who is a better goalie? Steve Mason who has flat out sucked every year since his first season? Dany Sabourin? John Curry? Dwayne Roloson and Fluery I could give you, but no way all, or even most, of the goalies he's played with are better.

Quote:
Imo Jones needs another full season in the ahl and should get a opportunity next season when scivens will be leaving due to ufa status. Another full season in the ahl and i would be more confident in his play. Having him bounce up and down between nhl and ahl imo wouldnt be good for his confidence. Yes this is just a gut feeling more then anything tangible. Jones will get his chance just not this year imo.
Why would Jones be bouncing back and forth? Who was the last Kings goalie to bounce back and forth? Maybe Labarbera? Better question yet, who was the last young goalie the Kings bounced back and forth, a goalie that was considered possibly part of the future for LA? Jamie Storr?

There's nothing to indicate that anyone will be bouncing back and forth the way LA runs their team, let alone a goalie. Under DL and Co., which is seven seasons, 11 goalies have appeared for the Kings, all of those appearing in the first two seasons. In the last five seasons, only Bernier, Quick, Ersberg and Labarbera have played for the Kings. Once the position got settled after a few years of unrest, much like the rest of the line up, the Kings have ran with pretty much the same line up in net ever since. No one has bounced around in the past five years. Bernier and Quick each got one recall after turning pro, and then when they were recalled a second time, it was for good.

The Kings don't bounce players around. Not anymore.

Quote:
Originally Posted by KingCanadain1976 View Post
I was just thinking martin jones spending a second year in mancheaster has some percedent to it as Bernier also spent 2 full years before he got a back up role in the nhl as well
As Holden noted, Jones already has three AHL seasons under his belt. As I suggested earlier, after that length of time, he deserve a shot at being the backup in the event Scribbles fails or someone gets hit or is out for a game or two.

kingsfan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-07-2013, 12:46 AM
  #64
kingsfan
#SutterforanOscar
 
kingsfan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Manitoba, Canada
Country: Canada
Posts: 9,027
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by KingCanadain1976 View Post
i was looking at wikiedia and it only had one season my applogy. The problem with stats is u can manipulate them to show whatever u want. Ilya Bryzgalov with tippet 930 save percentage accroding to ur stats u posted. Ilya Bryzgalov 900 last year and 909 the year before with flyers there isnt a difference yeah ok

bottom line goalies get better stats in a defense first system and this is why i think garon would post better numbers.
So out of nine goalies listed under Tippett, you found one that had a dramatic drop off. Oddly enough, it's the one goalie people most question if he's not clinically insane as well. He's weird even for goalies.

I assume you found none for Hitchcock, since you didn't list any. He worked with 14 goalies.

So one out of 23 goalies between the two, you listed one who bucked the trend. 22 out of 23 who didn't is 95.6 per cent. The odds are, Garon's save percentage has little to do with the system and a lot to do with the fact it's Mathieu Garon.

kingsfan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-07-2013, 09:28 AM
  #65
illegal_stick
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 1
vCash: 500
Here's the problem with Garon and his fans/defenders. He has ABS - Allen Bester Syndrome. He had some great flash and made some big split saves and had some big games early in his career (remember when he dominated the Kings while playing for the Habs?) that fool people into thinking he's something special. The assumption with a goalie like that is they are great, they are just on the wrong team. It's not their fault they're blowing big games, nobody could win those games because the teams are so awful.

The problem with the theory is when these goalies move on and have a chance to prove themselves elsewhere, they don't (Ron Tugnutt appeared to be an exception for a while there after the Nordiques) The reason? They are goalies with a ton of skill, who can make big saves and even steal games... once in a while. They don't have the mental toughness to be consistent goalies in the NHL.... which is hardly an insult, by the way, just making it into the NHL and winning one game is a remarkable feat.

Mathieu Garon was given opportunity after opportunity, especially in LA, to prove he could be a number one and guess what? He barely proved he was a #2 (poo joke unintended.) Many Kings fans were fooled into believing Garon was this great goalie, despite a severe lack of evidence. You would think now that we have been blessed with Quick, everyone would start to see the reality: a true number one has to be able to steal games when the team in front of him sucks.... instead of using the team in front of you as an excuse to lose all the time. (not that Garon did this, just his ridiculous fans)

Hoping Bernier has ABS, but I get the feeling he's actually a solid #1... but not as good as Quick.

illegal_stick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-07-2013, 11:26 AM
  #66
KingCanadain1976
Registered User
 
KingCanadain1976's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Thunder Bay Ont. Can
Country: Canada
Posts: 6,161
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by kingsfan View Post
So out of nine goalies listed under Tippett, you found one that had a dramatic drop off. Oddly enough, it's the one goalie people most question if he's not clinically insane as well. He's weird even for goalies.

I assume you found none for Hitchcock, since you didn't list any. He worked with 14 goalies.

So one out of 23 goalies between the two, you listed one who bucked the trend. 22 out of 23 who didn't is 95.6 per cent. The odds are, Garon's save percentage has little to do with the system and a lot to do with the fact it's Mathieu Garon.
I didnt even look at hitchcock. I made my case with "the one goalie" To be honest i only look at Ilya Bryzgalov because he proves what i've been saying. Coyates play a defensive system sorta like us not as fully defensive but close. The flyer are as much of a offense first team as ur going to find. So please don't assume anything we all know how that is.

KingCanadain1976 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-07-2013, 11:42 AM
  #67
KingCanadain1976
Registered User
 
KingCanadain1976's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Thunder Bay Ont. Can
Country: Canada
Posts: 6,161
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by kingsfan View Post
How other goalies do behind the same defense Garon has to play behind is very relevent. It shows how well he does in the same system, behind the same D, etc. as others. And who is a better goalie? Steve Mason who has flat out sucked every year since his first season? Dany Sabourin? John Curry? Dwayne Roloson and Fluery I could give you, but no way all, or even most, of the goalies he's played with are better.



Why would Jones be bouncing back and forth? Who was the last Kings goalie to bounce back and forth? Maybe Labarbera? Better question yet, who was the last young goalie the Kings bounced back and forth, a goalie that was considered possibly part of the future for LA? Jamie Storr?

There's nothing to indicate that anyone will be bouncing back and forth the way LA runs their team, let alone a goalie. Under DL and Co., which is seven seasons, 11 goalies have appeared for the Kings, all of those appearing in the first two seasons. In the last five seasons, only Bernier, Quick, Ersberg and Labarbera have played for the Kings. Once the position got settled after a few years of unrest, much like the rest of the line up, the Kings have ran with pretty much the same line up in net ever since. No one has bounced around in the past five years. Bernier and Quick each got one recall after turning pro, and then when they were recalled a second time, it was for good.

The Kings don't bounce players around. Not anymore.



As Holden noted, Jones already has three AHL seasons under his belt. As I suggested earlier, after that length of time, he deserve a shot at being the backup in the event Scribbles fails or someone gets hit or is out for a game or two.
First again i was looking at wiki and it only had one season for jones again sorry i was wrong in the number of seasons he had. Looking at his stats they are not exactly stellar regular season. I would like to see him get his gaa under 2.50 with one morre season im sure he would be able to do that.
Next If scrivens gets hurt and u recall jones He most likely will be sitting on the bench for most games. I'm not sure how much good that will do his game. As i ve stated before im more comfortable playing garon for longer strengths then jones due to his experiences Garon has shown hes capable of doing it jones hasnt.The bounce around thing would only happen if injurys happen Just because we have been realitvely healthy doesnst mean we will now and like it or not if we have alot of injurys people would be bounceing up and down. How quickly we forget what its like to go thru injuries ( forgiven a king fan who remembers such things ) I am not going to convince you that garon is a better choice then jone to play this season lets just hope it doesnt matter and we re healthy all year.

KingCanadain1976 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-07-2013, 01:22 PM
  #68
kingsfan
#SutterforanOscar
 
kingsfan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Manitoba, Canada
Country: Canada
Posts: 9,027
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by KingCanadain1976 View Post
I didnt even look at hitchcock. I made my case with "the one goalie" To be honest i only look at Ilya Bryzgalov because he proves what i've been saying. Coyates play a defensive system sorta like us not as fully defensive but close. The flyer are as much of a offense first team as ur going to find. So please don't assume anything we all know how that is.
Hoe does one goalie prove your theory, but the other eight goalies under Tippett, who all flying the face of your theory, don't disprove your theory?

kingsfan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-07-2013, 02:24 PM
  #69
KingCanadain1976
Registered User
 
KingCanadain1976's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Thunder Bay Ont. Can
Country: Canada
Posts: 6,161
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by kingsfan View Post
Hoe does one goalie prove your theory, but the other eight goalies under Tippett, who all flying the face of your theory, don't disprove your theory?
sigh ok you made me go thru all the tippets goalies

Lets see exactly what they did

Mike smiths best save percent before going under tippets system was 916 and 900 with tampa He posted 930 and 910 with coyates seem a improvement to me.

corey hirsh played a whole 2 games under tippet so yeah use him thats a good measure
Curtis McElhinney again 2 games played but 944 save looks better then his other numbers

dan ellis played one nhl game under tippet and let in 3 goals u got me with this one.

Jason LaBarbera best peercentage was 910 with la and under tippet 928 909 911 seems like a slight improvement as well

Johan Hedberg played 19 games 898 with tippet had over 900 3 out of the last 4 years

Marty Turco 925 921 before he was there 932 913 898 910 909 898 then tippet eft he went up to 913 theen went to other clubs went down as did his carrer Tippet helped his carrer

Ron Tugnutt play the last two years of his carrer under tippet 896 and 900 He had a high of 925 with ottawa in 98

ok i see more then slight inmprovement under tippet problem with useing them stats is they need to be update in the smith and Ilya Bryzgalov cases especially.

KingCanadain1976 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-07-2013, 03:18 PM
  #70
kingsfan
#SutterforanOscar
 
kingsfan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Manitoba, Canada
Country: Canada
Posts: 9,027
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by KingCanadain1976 View Post
First again i was looking at wiki and it only had one season for jones again sorry i was wrong in the number of seasons he had. Looking at his stats they are not exactly stellar regular season. I would like to see him get his gaa under 2.50 with one morre season im sure he would be able to do that.
It was at 2.25 GAA in his first year. Save percentage is a far better means to gauge a goalies performance than GAA. If the team in front of him is allowing 30 shots a game for example, which is basically what Manchester was doing, Jones would need to stop 27.6 shots per game to get his GAA under 2.50. That represents a save percentage of .920 which is very high. I'm not sure about the AHL, but a .920 save percentage would have tied for 14th in the entire league.

Btw, the NHL league average is I believe 28.5 shots against per game last season, a full shot and a half less than what Jones would have faced last year. That, statistically, is fairly significant. Over 56 games he played last season, that'd represent 84 more shots, or basically the equivalent of three full games worth of shots that other goalies wouldn't have.

Quote:
Next If scrivens gets hurt and u recall jones He most likely will be sitting on the bench for most games. I'm not sure how much good that will do his game.
As I said earlier, odds are that any injury will be a minor thing of a few games at most. Anything long term and I'd rather see the Kings go get a veteran to do the backup job too. But I'd rather wait and see that than sign Garon and have him eat up minutes in manchester. Remember, Berube needs to move up too, and should do so this year. Garon and Jones in Manchester ensures Berube plays another season in the ECHL. How's that good for his game?

If we end up needing someone long term to replaces Scribbles, I'd rather see the Kings go with Jones to give him the experience or sign/trade for someone rather than get Garon. Like I said before, Theordore is out there. Someone of that ilk, someone who has demonstrated bein able to play a lot of games usually consistently, not someone like Garon, who can look like Roy one day and red Light Racicot the next.

Quote:
The bounce around thing would only happen if injurys happen Just because we have been realitvely healthy doesnst mean we will now and like it or not if we have alot of injurys people would be bounceing up and down.
So get someone then, when it happens. If we really were worried about the injury bug before, we'd have signed guys like Garon in previous seasons. When was the last time the Kings signed or even invited a veteran goalie? And in the past five years we've had largely inexperienced goaltending. What we have right now i the most experience we've had since the days of guys like Cloutier and Burke.

Quote:
How quickly we forget what its like to go thru injuries ( forgiven a king fan who remembers such things ) I am not going to convince you that garon is a better choice then jone to play this season lets just hope it doesnt matter and we re healthy all year.
I think we all hope we're healthy all year. I'd just rather wait and see than sign someone who'll more likely just steal ice time from developing goalies.


Last edited by kingsfan: 09-07-2013 at 03:36 PM.
kingsfan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-07-2013, 03:35 PM
  #71
kingsfan
#SutterforanOscar
 
kingsfan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Manitoba, Canada
Country: Canada
Posts: 9,027
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by KingCanadain1976 View Post
sigh ok you made me go thru all the tippets goalies

Lets see exactly what they did

Mike smiths best save percent before going under tippets system was 916 and 900 with tampa He posted 930 and 910 with coyates seem a improvement to me.
Agreed.

Quote:
corey hirsh played a whole 2 games under tippet so yeah use him thats a good measure
Ok, so let's rule out guys with only a few games then.

Quote:
Curtis McElhinney again 2 games played but 944 save looks better then his other numbers
...unless it supports your argument?

Quote:
dan ellis played one nhl game under tippet and let in 3 goals u got me with this one.
So now we're back to bashing based on the number of games when it doesn't support your theory?

Quote:
Jason LaBarbera best peercentage was 910 with la and under tippet 928 909 911 seems like a slight improvement as well
Looks like he had one good year with the .928 and then returned to normal. Plenty of goalies do that, just like plenty of players have a career year before dropping off.

Quote:
Johan Hedberg played 19 games 898 with tippet had over 900 3 out of the last 4 years
So he did worse under Tippett. This supports your theory how?

Quote:
Marty Turco 925 921 before he was there 932 913 898 910 909 898 then tippet eft he went up to 913 theen went to other clubs went down as did his carrer Tippet helped his carrer
So two of Turco's three best all-time seasons were before Tippett and he actually was noticably below those numbers for much of his time with Tippett. Then his numbers rose after he parted with Tippett. Again, this supports you how?

Quote:
Ron Tugnutt play the last two years of his carrer under tippet 896 and 900 He had a high of 925 with ottawa in 98
And you fail to mention the year before he came to Dallas his save percentage was .900 with Columbus, a team that's been notortiously worse defensely than Dallas, especially under Tippett. How did he manage to post the same save percentage (or better) under a worse system?

Quote:
ok i see more then slight inmprovement under tippet problem with useing them stats is they need to be update in the smith and Ilya Bryzgalov cases especially.
I see Smith and Bryz improving and I see everyone else doing actually worse overall. Even in the three cases of goalies with very limited showings, two of them dropped off.

The system can help somewhat, but it's the goalie that makes it happen. Garon is just not that good of a goalie on a consistent level.

kingsfan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-07-2013, 03:56 PM
  #72
KingCanadain1976
Registered User
 
KingCanadain1976's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Thunder Bay Ont. Can
Country: Canada
Posts: 6,161
vCash: 500
Lets be honest about this the only way jones or garon get to play in the nhl this year is a injury to quick. Now if scrivens gets hurt Garon is the perfect replacement Hes used to being a nhl backup.

You have stated that u would just trade for a vetern to fill in thus loosing assets. Also how long would that take and we would be at the mercy of the other team. Id rather have one signed and playing in shape ty.

i dont see the 20ish games garon would play as backup in mancheaster as stealing time from developing goalies, You have to have someone backup jones I dont see Berube developing with that many games in the ahl

Lets be real here the most jones will ever play in kings uniform is maybe 20ish games a year. I think one more year in the ahl would be better for his carrer. Proving he can carry a ahl team may give him more opportunity in the future.

Garon is a vetern backup and i really dont see a better option outthere who would also be signed cheap enuff Long term sure id like to fill the postion from within an we proberly will. I would rather have him in place now. As for u saying that we havent had one in the past invite to the camp I say this we never needed someone because if quick got hurt there was j bernier to step in. Im not as confindent in scrivens as i was in bernier.

KingCanadain1976 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-07-2013, 04:14 PM
  #73
KingCanadain1976
Registered User
 
KingCanadain1976's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Thunder Bay Ont. Can
Country: Canada
Posts: 6,161
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by kingsfan View Post
Agreed.



Ok, so let's rule out guys with only a few games then.



...unless it supports your argument?



So now we're back to bashing based on the number of games when it doesn't support your theory?



Looks like he had one good year with the .928 and then returned to normal. Plenty of goalies do that, just like plenty of players have a career year before dropping off.



So he did worse under Tippett. This supports your theory how?



So two of Turco's three best all-time seasons were before Tippett and he actually was noticably below those numbers for much of his time with Tippett. Then his numbers rose after he parted with Tippett. Again, this supports you how?



And you fail to mention the year before he came to Dallas his save percentage was .900 with Columbus, a team that's been notortiously worse defensely than Dallas, especially under Tippett. How did he manage to post the same save percentage (or better) under a worse system?



I see Smith and Bryz improving and I see everyone else doing actually worse overall. Even in the three cases of goalies with very limited showings, two of them dropped off.

The system can help somewhat, but it's the goalie that makes it happen. Garon is just not that good of a goalie on a consistent level.
Ok there was 9 goalies take the 3 out that didnt play more then 3 games under his system that leaves 6. your admitting 2 smith and bryz fit my theory ok now lets look at Labarbara. 900 in his rookie year in la 910 893 He goes to coyates posted 928 then 909 911 an 923 last year how is this not fitting my criteria this makes 3. Turco is next up an yes he improved the year after tippet left but the next two years he was under 900 so i would say his best years were under tippets system. ok hedberg may fit what ur saying but playing only 19 games under his system i will suggest its not really a fair amount to judge on. I would say that in order to be playing under tippets system you should be talking the starter as he would get the most opportunity to play not the backups who would only play games with no sorta consistant bases. With tuggnut it was his last two years with tippet but ok your right there so leets see that 4/6 fitting my theory and if u take in consieration my starter thoery im 4/5

KingCanadain1976 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 07:24 PM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2014 All Rights Reserved.