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Old
09-07-2013, 06:26 PM
  #126
Koto
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Originally Posted by The Nuge View Post
It's amazing how people can call him a below average second line center, when his offense is more like that of a 1st line center
well it certainly was last year, but even all the hated on 40+ seasons had him well within the 2nd liner range, i think 11/12 season he ranked 40th among centers.

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Old
09-07-2013, 06:30 PM
  #127
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Originally Posted by nabob View Post
But his 2 way play and defensive awareness is more like that of a raw rookie or AHL player.
The funny thing about this post is that Gagner seems to be the centre that is always stuck carrying raw rookies and AHL tweeners on his wings.

I could see how that could have a negative effect on his defensive game.

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09-07-2013, 06:31 PM
  #128
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Originally Posted by nabob View Post
But his 2 way play and defensive awareness is more like that of a raw rookie or AHL player.
This.

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Old
09-07-2013, 07:12 PM
  #129
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Originally Posted by nabob View Post
But his 2 way play and defensive awareness is more like that of a raw rookie or AHL player.
He's made strides in that department in the last 2 years. To compare his defensive abilities to those of an AHL player is very much exaggerating, especially as OilerTyler said considering who's been riding shotgun for him for the most part. He's made mistakes which have led to goals against but to single him out in that regard on this team is pretty biased and to focus on the negative instead of looking at his whole body of work is ignorant. Still definitely needs to improve his faceoffs though.

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Old
09-07-2013, 07:16 PM
  #130
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Originally Posted by Delicious Pancakes View Post
He's made strides in that department in the last 2 years. To compare his defensive abilities to those of an AHL player is very much exaggerating, especially as OilerTyler said considering who's been riding shotgun for him for the most part. He's made mistakes which have led to goals against but to single him out in that regard on this team is pretty biased and to focus on the negative instead of looking at his whole body of work is ignorant. Still definitely needs to improve his faceoffs though.
I like his effort and he has nifty hands. There are the positives I've seen in 6 seasons.

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Old
09-07-2013, 07:28 PM
  #131
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Originally Posted by oilman9482 View Post
I like his effort and he has nifty hands. There are the positives I've seen in 6 seasons.
Are you this stingy praising all players/things? Or do you need Lasik? Because I know somebody for that.

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Old
09-07-2013, 07:39 PM
  #132
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Originally Posted by Delicious Pancakes View Post
Are you this stingy praising all players/things? Or do you need Lasik? Because I know somebody for that.
I like Hall's hands, speed, tenacity, shot, dynamic skillset, leadership, overall toughness for a skilled player, high end career potential.

What I don't like.... can't think of anything.

Was that stingy?

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Old
09-07-2013, 10:34 PM
  #133
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I was curious about how many game winners Gagner has had which led me to compare him with other Oilers centers during his time with the team.

Gagner: 6/91 of his goals have been game winners
Horcoff: 7/80 from 2007-2013 (in his career he's 25/162)
Cogliano 13/57 from 2007-2011 (career: 16/83)
Stoll: 1/14 in 2007/08 (career: 22/126)
Brodziak: 6/25 from 2007-2009 (career: 11/81)
Brule: 5/26 from 2008-2011 (career: 6/43)
Fraser: 0/3 in 2010/11 (career: 0/20)
Belanger: 0/4 from 2011-2013 (career: 19/138)
Lander: 0/2 from 2011-2013
RNH: 2/22 from 2011-2013

FWIW Gordon is 5/39 for his career (2003-2013)

Also (organized by 12/13 pts)...
Crosby: 29/238
Stamkos: 28/208
E. Staal: 43/168
Backstrom: 16/109
Datsyuk: 43/255
Getzlaf: 27/152
Ribeiro: 26/186 (7/50 his first six seasons)
Toews: 31/167
Tavares: 19/112
H. Sedin: 33/182 (7/72 his first six seasons)
Stepan: 13/56
Duchene: 9/82
Kopitar: 18/173
Thornton: 52/331
Tlusty: 6/57
Couture: 19/89
M. Koivu: 17/119
Marchand: 10/67
B. Richards: 35/256
Carter: 48/228
Plekanec: 21/156
Krejci: 18/91
Malkin: 37/217
M. Richards: 25/163
Bergeron: 29/153
Lecavalier: 60/383
Marleau: 79/404
Pavelski: 27/150
J. Staal: 17/130
Turris: 8/43
Brassard: 8/63
D. Roy: 31/168
Hudler: 12/97
Steen: 25/123
S. Koivu: 45/244 (11/85 his first six seasons)
Cullen: 25/202 (8/65 his first six seasons)
Legwand: 39/200
P. Stastny: 20/135
Zajac: 12/98
Dubinsky: 15/83
McDonald: 27/182
Peverley: 18/77
Hanzel: 14/65
Filpulla: 12/100
Grabovski: 13/94
Briere: 39/286
Gomez: 31/171
Kesler: 20/157
Spezza: 31/228
Weiss: 23/145

Gagner's numbers are pretty low compared to other offensive centers in the league. I noted a handful of guys who also didn't score a lot of clutch goals early in their careers but have gone on to be pretty successful.

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Old
09-08-2013, 01:59 AM
  #134
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Delicious Pancakes View Post
I was curious about how many game winners Gagner has had which led me to compare him with other Oilers centers during his time with the team.

Gagner: 6/91 of his goals have been game winners
Horcoff: 7/80 from 2007-2013 (in his career he's 25/162)
Cogliano 13/57 from 2007-2011 (career: 16/83)
Stoll: 1/14 in 2007/08 (career: 22/126)
Brodziak: 6/25 from 2007-2009 (career: 11/81)
Brule: 5/26 from 2008-2011 (career: 6/43)
Fraser: 0/3 in 2010/11 (career: 0/20)
Belanger: 0/4 from 2011-2013 (career: 19/138)
Lander: 0/2 from 2011-2013
RNH: 2/22 from 2011-2013

FWIW Gordon is 5/39 for his career (2003-2013)

Also (organized by 12/13 pts)...
Crosby: 29/238
Stamkos: 28/208
E. Staal: 43/168
Backstrom: 16/109
Datsyuk: 43/255
Getzlaf: 27/152
Ribeiro: 26/186 (7/50 his first six seasons)
Toews: 31/167
Tavares: 19/112
H. Sedin: 33/182 (7/72 his first six seasons)
Stepan: 13/56
Duchene: 9/82
Kopitar: 18/173
Thornton: 52/331
Tlusty: 6/57
Couture: 19/89
M. Koivu: 17/119
Marchand: 10/67
B. Richards: 35/256
Carter: 48/228
Plekanec: 21/156
Krejci: 18/91
Malkin: 37/217
M. Richards: 25/163
Bergeron: 29/153
Lecavalier: 60/383
Marleau: 79/404
Pavelski: 27/150
J. Staal: 17/130
Turris: 8/43
Brassard: 8/63
D. Roy: 31/168
Hudler: 12/97
Steen: 25/123
S. Koivu: 45/244 (11/85 his first six seasons)
Cullen: 25/202 (8/65 his first six seasons)
Legwand: 39/200
P. Stastny: 20/135
Zajac: 12/98
Dubinsky: 15/83
McDonald: 27/182
Peverley: 18/77
Hanzel: 14/65
Filpulla: 12/100
Grabovski: 13/94
Briere: 39/286
Gomez: 31/171
Kesler: 20/157
Spezza: 31/228
Weiss: 23/145

Gagner's numbers are pretty low compared to other offensive centers in the league. I noted a handful of guys who also didn't score a lot of clutch goals early in their careers but have gone on to be pretty successful.
I think team wins plays a big part as well Oilers have had worst win loss in those 6 years , a better comparable would be gwg gw apples pro rated into wins imo. Otherwise pretty skewed stat.

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Old
09-08-2013, 02:12 AM
  #135
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oiltankjob 4 93 64 View Post
I think team wins plays a big part as well Oilers have had worst win loss in those 6 years , a better comparable would be gwg gw apples pro rated into wins imo. Otherwise pretty skewed stat.
I'm not a Gagner fan but I agree, when your team sucks many of your points will come in a losing cause since most games you end up losing.

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Old
09-08-2013, 02:20 AM
  #136
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Originally Posted by Bryanbryoil View Post
I'm not a Gagner fan but I agree, when your team sucks many of your points will come in a losing cause since most games you end up losing.
And I am a Gagner fan but do not think he is captain material.

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Old
09-08-2013, 03:14 AM
  #137
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Originally Posted by Oiltankjob 4 93 64 View Post
And I am a Gagner fan but do not think he is captain material.
Partly disagree. I think Gagner definitely has the qualities that would make a good captain, so I think he is captain material. But at the same time I can see why people would be against having him named captain at this point in his career and/or on this roster where a player like Hall (who may not be want to be captain now) would make an excellent captain in two seasons time.

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Old
09-08-2013, 09:03 AM
  #138
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Originally Posted by Koto View Post
well it certainly was last year, but even all the hated on 40+ seasons had him well within the 2nd liner range, i think 11/12 season he ranked 40th among centers.

In the last 4 years, he was 57th, then 53, then 43, then 17th in scoring anmongst centers. This looks like a normal progression for a very young player into a bonafide 1st line centre.

Kinda crazy considering we were never a big scoring team in those years and he was playing with rookies.

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Old
09-08-2013, 10:19 AM
  #139
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Delicious Pancakes View Post
He's made strides in that department in the last 2 years. To compare his defensive abilities to those of an AHL player is very much exaggerating, especially as OilerTyler said considering who's been riding shotgun for him for the most part. He's made mistakes which have led to goals against but to single him out in that regard on this team is pretty biased and to focus on the negative instead of looking at his whole body of work is ignorant. Still definitely needs to improve his faceoffs though.
No he really hasnt, last season was his worst season for giveaways and lost defensive assignments since his rookie season. GO look at the GA/60 stats for last season. Almost every player took a massive dip when paired with Gagner. The whole blaming his linemates for everything negative with his game for the last 6 seasons has been proven wrong many times and is getting old.

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Old
09-08-2013, 10:20 AM
  #140
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Originally Posted by Mr Sakich View Post
In the last 4 years, he was 57th, then 53, then 43, then 17th in scoring anmongst centers. This looks like a normal progression for a very young player into a bonafide 1st line centre.

Kinda crazy considering we were never a big scoring team in those years and he was playing with rookies.
Looks like one shortened season that strays from the norm.

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Old
09-08-2013, 10:44 AM
  #141
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Originally Posted by Nugie Boy View Post
This is why we should move Hall to center. Just until RNH comes back:

Yakupov/Hall/Hemsky
Perron/Gagner/Eberle
Having 2 guys play out of position is a recipe for disaster.

Yakupov is not a LWer, he proved that last season.
Hall, lets hope for the best.

Perron-Hall-Yakupov
Omark-Gagner-Eberle

That will work out much better because we have guys playing their natural positions except for Hall.

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09-08-2013, 10:57 AM
  #142
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lowe in Oil View Post
Having 2 guys play out of position is a recipe for disaster.

Yakupov is not a LWer, he proved that last season.
Hall, lets hope for the best.

Perron-Hall-Yakupov
Omark-Gagner-Eberle

That will work out much better because we have guys playing their natural positions except for Hall.
Yakupov struggled at left wing last season but he is still a much better option than Omark in that spot.

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09-08-2013, 11:30 AM
  #143
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Originally Posted by OilerTyler View Post
Yakupov struggled at left wing last season but he is still a much better option than Omark in that spot.
True, but we can say the same thing for Eberbe > Hemsky in the 2nd line.

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Old
09-08-2013, 11:48 AM
  #144
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True, but we can say the same thing for Eberbe > Hemsky in the 2nd line.
Or Yak > Hemsky on top line.

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Old
09-08-2013, 12:00 PM
  #145
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Originally Posted by Oiltankjob 4 93 64 View Post
I think team wins plays a big part as well Oilers have had worst win loss in those 6 years , a better comparable would be gwg gw apples pro rated into wins imo. Otherwise pretty skewed stat.
True, it's a pretty skewed stat.

But when you look at the % of goals that were GWG, you could argue that moving Cogliano was a detriment to the organization.

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Old
09-08-2013, 12:14 PM
  #146
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Why does every center discussion turn into a bash Gagner thread?

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Old
09-08-2013, 01:21 PM
  #147
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Originally Posted by belair View Post
True, it's a pretty skewed stat.

But when you look at the % of goals that were GWG, you could argue that moving Cogliano was a detriment to the organization.
And they traded him twice and tried to move him another time. And I agree he was good on pk as well.

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Old
09-08-2013, 01:27 PM
  #148
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nugie Boy View Post
This is why we should move Hall to center. Just until RNH comes back:

Yakupov/Hall/Hemsky
Perron/Gagner/Eberle
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lowe in Oil View Post
Having 2 guys play out of position is a recipe for disaster.

Yakupov is not a LWer, he proved that last season.
Hall, lets hope for the best.

Perron-Hall-Yakupov
Omark-Gagner-Eberle

That will work out much better because we have guys playing their natural positions except for Hall.

I'd rather just try Hemsky on LW

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Old
09-08-2013, 09:19 PM
  #149
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Originally Posted by Bergeron47 View Post
Gagner-Gordon-Acton-Miller-Hamilton-Lander is the center equivalent of Conkanen+Morrison
So you're saying that we're going to make a deadline pickup and make the SCF?

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Old
09-08-2013, 10:49 PM
  #150
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oiltankjob 4 93 64 View Post
I think team wins plays a big part as well Oilers have had worst win loss in those 6 years , a better comparable would be gwg gw apples pro rated into wins imo. Otherwise pretty skewed stat.
What came first? GWG or team wins?

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