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09-06-2013, 02:55 PM
  #76
StaalWars
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Originally Posted by NYR Viper View Post
Brian Bickell. Andrew Shaw. Shawn Thornton. Gregory Campbell. Kyle Clifford. Dwight King.

Hell the Pens had Rupp, Asham, Cooke when they won.

Successful teams have a good balance which includes guys who can stand up for their teammates and turn the momentum in multiple ways.
Asham was not on the Pens Stanley Cup winning team and I don't think Rupp played for them in those playoffs.

But, to your point, I'm not saying those guys aren't important. I'm just saying that they're not winning championships without the stars ahead of them on the depth chart. This franchise should start worrying about it's bottom 6 when it actually has a top 6 capable of competing for a championship. I'm not of the opinion we currently have that. Every single one of those teams was capable of producing multiple studs at forward. We haven't been able to produce even one. Granted, that's largely because we didn't have the luxury of drafting Crosby/Malkin/Toews/Kane etc. but I see the general narrative of the Rangers franchise up to this point post- (long) lockout as:

1. Have the best goaltender in the world
2. Have a solid defensive core
3. Consistently lack offensive firepower despite trying every offseason to find a remedy.

Toughness really should be far down on the list of this team's concerns. Sometimes I wonder if the people overly worried about toughness watched this team in the mid to late 90's. Those teams were made of Charmin.

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09-06-2013, 03:00 PM
  #77
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Originally Posted by StaalWars View Post
Asham was not on the Pens Stanley Cup winning team and I don't think Rupp played for them in those playoffs.
Rupp signed with them the summer after their Cup win.

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09-06-2013, 03:18 PM
  #78
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Originally Posted by StaalWars View Post
Asham was not on the Pens Stanley Cup winning team and I don't think Rupp played for them in those playoffs.

But, to your point, I'm not saying those guys aren't important. I'm just saying that they're not winning championships without the stars ahead of them on the depth chart. This franchise should start worrying about it's bottom 6 when it actually has a top 6 capable of competing for a championship. I'm not of the opinion we currently have that. Every single one of those teams was capable of producing multiple studs at forward. We haven't been able to produce even one. Granted, that's largely because we didn't have the luxury of drafting Crosby/Malkin/Toews/Kane etc. but I see the general narrative of the Rangers franchise up to this point post- (long) lockout as:

1. Have the best goaltender in the world
2. Have a solid defensive core
3. Consistently lack offensive firepower despite trying every offseason to find a remedy.

Toughness really should be far down on the list of this team's concerns. Sometimes I wonder if the people overly worried about toughness watched this team in the mid to late 90's. Those teams were made of Charmin.
The stars ahead of them are very important, of course. No one is arguing that point. What I am arguing is that this team is lacking the ability to stand up for itself by way of dropping the gloves.

Obviously it can't be quantified. I consider it a part of the game today and it has been proven by quite a few teams who play on the edge and win games.

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09-06-2013, 05:39 PM
  #79
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The stars ahead of them are very important, of course. No one is arguing that point. What I am arguing is that this team is lacking the ability to stand up for itself by way of dropping the gloves.

Obviously it can't be quantified. I consider it a part of the game today and it has been proven by quite a few teams who play on the edge and win games.
The sad truth is the Rangers have needed both type of players for a long time and have been utterly incapable of developing them. And so the revolving door of personnel continues.

Top-end skill guys are needed, and bottom 6 toughness is needed. Why haven't the Rangers been able to develop any??? 2nd/3rd line tweeners who can skate are nice, but not to the point when it becomes redundant.

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09-06-2013, 06:07 PM
  #80
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this is why it makes sense to have Asham and Haley around. When they need to fight then fight, 4th line minutes

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09-06-2013, 06:16 PM
  #81
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this is why it makes sense to have Asham and Haley around. When they need to fight then fight, 4th line minutes
I think Asham's role is diminished since he plays the right side and we have Dorsett. But if we're able to move Boyle (ideally 4th line LW) for a decent return, or D. Moore turns into a bust and we use Boyle as 4C, I think Haley is a no brainer for that 4th line LW spot. He really impressed me with his stints for the Rangers this year, miles above his play in the past. Our best 4th line during the playoffs was easily Haley-Newbs-Dorse... I still think it's a shame to see Newbs go. He was a dependable call up with good grit.

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09-06-2013, 06:22 PM
  #82
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09-06-2013, 06:35 PM
  #83
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Agree about toughness/peskiness. Don't really have any brutes. Don't think a pure goon is the answer, but I have a feeling islanders may bully us a bit this year. IIRC, Dylan is 2-3 years away from what the scouts say. Dorsett is pretty much it. Boyle doesn't know how to use his size. Pyatt is decent along boards, but is a lamb in the rest of his game. Haley is a maniac, and I do like him, but not sure how much ice he is seeing this year. Kreider has some snarl to his game, hoping to see more of it with increased ice time. Hopefully Ulf can bring something we don't see out of the blue line.
If McIlrath is 3 years away, he probably will never make it. Kid is 21 years old, and if he has a good half season or so in Hartford this year, I would expect him to be called up if there are any injuries in the top 6.

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09-06-2013, 10:05 PM
  #84
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There is no way McIlrath is 3 years away

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09-07-2013, 09:02 PM
  #85
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We're Too Soft to Win the Stanley Cup

Listen guys I love the AV and I really like our depth this year and with a Healthy Staal and hopefully an in shape BR we'll be in the mix

However this lineup is baby food soft. Callahan might be the toughest player in our top 9. That's crazy

Nash Richards Hagelin Callahan Stepan Kreider pouliot MZA brassard Moore kristo miller Lindberg fast and the biggest baby of them all Brian Boyle

Uve got Dorsett and Hopefully HOPeFULLY asham is a regular or else we are far from tough enough to win a Cup

I'd never have given Clowe the deal he got but without a guy like him or Dubinsky we're gonna get pushed around ALOT.

We're going to be very good but this is a MAJOR problem going in

I'm concerned

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09-07-2013, 10:59 PM
  #86
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Dorsett has not actually made an impact yet. Coming back after his recovery from a broken clavicle, he looked like a good team guy who wanted to get involved. That is a real plus for him, but at the same time, he just did not look ready enough to show everything he can do.

Edit: I would still be very happy to have Asham going into the season, at least until circumstances dictate that others can do the job better. That's a real unknown.

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09-08-2013, 12:27 AM
  #87
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i'm hoping that the fact this roster has been together now for a while will head to them standing-up for each other. haven't really seen it yet, so i'm dubious. i am really hoping to see one of those guys who 'accidentally' plows-into henrik get dropped with a broken nose. it's worth giving up a number of power play goals to set a tone. it's like having an outfielder with a cannon arm. at first, opponents will challenge him. but then, after a few guys are gunned-out trying to take extra bases, the opponents stop doing it. i suspect we're going to see mcilrath if vignault senses the team isn't stepping-up, as a unit.

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09-08-2013, 12:30 AM
  #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vitto79 View Post
this is why it makes sense to have Asham and Haley around. When they need to fight then fight, 4th line minutes
i think every line needs a policeman. if not, you're going to need a defenseman handle that role. goons are useless, cuz they dont play.

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09-08-2013, 12:37 AM
  #89
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There is no way McIlrath is 3 years away
I hope not! That's what everyone said when he was drafted and I was optimistic.

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09-08-2013, 02:31 AM
  #90
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Small thing, but the 2nd hit wasn't on Seidenberg. Still if he decides to play with that kind of authority on a regular basis it will really open things up for him. Guys will definitely be looking over their shoulder and backing off a bit more. It's the combination of speed, leg strength and thick body that will let him do that to a lot of guys. Similar to OV, not guys you think of necessarily as checkers but the speed and strength translate nicely into momentum and force.

McIlrath is getting closer, if he has a good camp he could be one of the first call ups IMO.

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09-08-2013, 07:19 AM
  #91
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Originally Posted by StaalWars View Post
Asham was not on the Pens Stanley Cup winning team and I don't think Rupp played for them in those playoffs.

But, to your point, I'm not saying those guys aren't important. I'm just saying that they're not winning championships without the stars ahead of them on the depth chart. This franchise should start worrying about it's bottom 6 when it actually has a top 6 capable of competing for a championship. I'm not of the opinion we currently have that. Every single one of those teams was capable of producing multiple studs at forward. We haven't been able to produce even one. Granted, that's largely because we didn't have the luxury of drafting Crosby/Malkin/Toews/Kane etc. but I see the general narrative of the Rangers franchise up to this point post- (long) lockout as:

1. Have the best goaltender in the world
2. Have a solid defensive core
3. Consistently lack offensive firepower despite trying every offseason to find a remedy.

Toughness really should be far down on the list of this team's concerns. Sometimes I wonder if the people overly worried about toughness watched this team in the mid to late 90's. Those teams were made of Charmin.
Not sure what Rangers mid to late 90's teams you're talking about. Between 92 and 99 the Rangers employed amongst others: Messier, Graves, Beukeboom, Kocur (maybe the most feared fighter of the era), Jay Wells, Tikkanen, Lowe, Mike Hartman, Matteau, Kypreos, Pat Verbeek (the original guy with the nickname 'little ball of hate'), Darren Langdon, Shane Churla, Marty McSorley, Ulf Samuelsson, Daniel Lacroix, Ryan Vandenbussche, Eric Cairns, PJ Stock, Todd Harvey. We even had a fighting goalie for a while--Daniel Cloutier. Practically every one of those teams were tougher than the team we had last year and tougher than the team we're going to have this year.

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09-08-2013, 09:52 AM
  #92
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Toughness is definitely something that concerns me with this team especially on D. I think there's plenty of grit and we play physical, but there isn't that fear factor. Danny G for instance can lay a hit as good as anyone in the NHL (so can Staal) but no opposing player is afraid to park in front of Hank. I love our D, but I wish they played with more hate.

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09-08-2013, 10:31 AM
  #93
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I am fine with a Asham, Moore, Dorsett 4th line. That's gritty

Nash, Stepan, Kreider
Hagelin, Brassard, Callahan
Zuccarello, Richards, Boyle
Pyatt( forgot him at first , boy they do have too many Forwards in the blah category)

( insert Kristo, and Poulliot in for Hags and Cally if they are not ready)

Powe, Haley, Hrvik, Lindberg, Fast call up options or bench

G and D are pretty obvious. Johnson is first D call up with Staal, Girardi, McDonaugh, Del Zotto , Moore, Stralman, Falk

Lundqvist , Biron

NEED kids to step up if Cally and Hags are hurt to start. Hoping atleast Hags can make it back in time as I don't expect Cally too


Last edited by Vitto79: 09-08-2013 at 10:37 AM.
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09-08-2013, 10:33 AM
  #94
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Originally Posted by egelband View Post
i think every line needs a policeman. if not, you're going to need a defenseman handle that role. goons are useless, cuz they dont play.
too an extent. Not sure why so many are down on Asham I mean he had a good playoff no? He was hurt a bit. Hes needed in games vs the Isles, Devils, Flyers.........guaranteed fights and Dorsett cant do that all the time

Eventually McIlrath will be atleast a yr away

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09-08-2013, 12:02 PM
  #95
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i think every line needs a policeman. if not, you're going to need a defenseman handle that role. goons are useless, cuz they dont play.
Every line? Even Boston only has two of those types of players up front.

People really, really exaggerate the amount of "toughness" that is needed.

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09-08-2013, 01:20 PM
  #96
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Not sure what Rangers mid to late 90's teams you're talking about. Between 92 and 99 the Rangers employed amongst others: Messier, Graves, Beukeboom, Kocur (maybe the most feared fighter of the era), Jay Wells, Tikkanen, Lowe, Mike Hartman, Matteau, Kypreos, Pat Verbeek (the original guy with the nickname 'little ball of hate'), Darren Langdon, Shane Churla, Marty McSorley, Ulf Samuelsson, Daniel Lacroix, Ryan Vandenbussche, Eric Cairns, PJ Stock, Todd Harvey. We even had a fighting goalie for a while--Daniel Cloutier. Practically every one of those teams were tougher than the team we had last year and tougher than the team we're going to have this year.
Meant to say late 90's early 2000's. That toughness didn't do much for this franchise from '97 onward.

I just don't understand how people can look at this team the past few years and single out "toughness" as being the main problem. In 07-08 NYR lead the league in hits. In 08-09 NYR lead the league in hits. 09-10 NYR was second. Lead the league again in 10-11. Lead the league again 11-12. Third in the league this past season. Even taking into account the well publicized MSG scorer bias, does that look like a characteristic of an overly "soft" team? I don't even need to look at the blocked shots stat to know we've probably been top 5 in that the past few years as well. Or are blocking shots and hitting not generally accepted as elements of "toughness" around here? The toughness crowd keeps saying that they are anti-goon and have realized the league has moved past those types. Well, OK, so I guess you guys are really just looking for more fighting majors? Do you really believe that adding a Chris Neil or a Matt Hendricks is the make or break element for this team to have success?

Toronto signed our beloved Colton Orr and it didn't help them one lick in the standings. Sather gave us a string of players like Brashear, Rupp, Boogard, John Scott, and now Asham and yet every single season this same thread crops up.

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09-08-2013, 01:50 PM
  #97
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I hope not! That's what everyone said when he was drafted and I was optimistic.
He will get a cup of tea this season in the NHL and he will likely make the roster next season full-time unless he falls flat on his face.

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09-08-2013, 02:26 PM
  #98
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Originally Posted by NYR Viper View Post
The stars ahead of them are very important, of course. No one is arguing that point. What I am arguing is that this team is lacking the ability to stand up for itself by way of dropping the gloves.

Obviously it can't be quantified. I consider it a part of the game today and it has been proven by quite a few teams who play on the edge and win games.
It's not even about dropping the gloves, and that idea is fuel for the people who really believe toughness isn't important.

What we lack is the ability to give and take the hits that matter, and bounce right back. It's not the NHL of the 90s where you've got Proberts and Domis. Conversely, it isn't as open and graceful--it's played in the corner, against 18 other athletic freaks of nature. You MUST be able to battle them, or have ELITE skill and float outside.

Fighting, as much as I like a good fight, is becoming an extension of the game, and they're trying to phase it out. Sadly, I think it will be history in say 10 years.

We need to realize that small, fast guys with tons of drive will necessarily lose to big, fast guys with just as much determination. Goons with a tiny bit of ability (Haley, Mashinter, etc.) will not counter guys like Lucic, Franzen, Staal, Neal, Malkin. Clowe maybe, 'cause he's slower than ****.

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09-08-2013, 05:07 PM
  #99
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Not sure what Rangers mid to late 90's teams you're talking about. Between 92 and 99 the Rangers employed amongst others: Messier, Graves, Beukeboom, Kocur (maybe the most feared fighter of the era), Jay Wells, Tikkanen, Lowe, Mike Hartman, Matteau, Kypreos, Pat Verbeek (the original guy with the nickname 'little ball of hate'), Darren Langdon, Shane Churla, Marty McSorley, Ulf Samuelsson, Daniel Lacroix, Ryan Vandenbussche, Eric Cairns, PJ Stock, Todd Harvey. We even had a fighting goalie for a while--Daniel Cloutier. Practically every one of those teams were tougher than the team we had last year and tougher than the team we're going to have this year.
Good memories of Cloutier serving Salo and Stock on Cz-sumpin on the Island!!

We'll need team toughness and some of Dorsett, asham, haley, falk to survive and maybe Mash. Prob being that onky one of these is a regular. Dont uave the answer really. Who policed for Vancouver?

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09-08-2013, 05:22 PM
  #100
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Meant to say late 90's early 2000's. That toughness didn't do much for this franchise from '97 onward.

I just don't understand how people can look at this team the past few years and single out "toughness" as being the main problem. In 07-08 NYR lead the league in hits. In 08-09 NYR lead the league in hits. 09-10 NYR was second. Lead the league again in 10-11. Lead the league again 11-12. Third in the league this past season. Even taking into account the well publicized MSG scorer bias, does that look like a characteristic of an overly "soft" team? I don't even need to look at the blocked shots stat to know we've probably been top 5 in that the past few years as well. Or are blocking shots and hitting not generally accepted as elements of "toughness" around here? The toughness crowd keeps saying that they are anti-goon and have realized the league has moved past those types. Well, OK, so I guess you guys are really just looking for more fighting majors? Do you really believe that adding a Chris Neil or a Matt Hendricks is the make or break element for this team to have success?

Toronto signed our beloved Colton Orr and it didn't help them one lick in the standings. Sather gave us a string of players like Brashear, Rupp, Boogard, John Scott, and now Asham and yet every single season this same thread crops up.
Toughness might not be the main problem with this year's coming team but it still may be a significant problem. People say what about Chicago? but Chicago makes other teams pay for taking liberties with a top notch pwp--which is what the Red Wings--post Probert, Kocur days did as well. To me you have to have at least one or the other and preferably something of both. Other teams don't fear the Rangers toughness and they don't fear the pwp--so yeah they can knock us around if they're capable--and some teams are--without worrying much about the consequences.

In any case the 90's teams arguably the best Rangers teams since I've been following them going back to 71-72 were very tough and very good as well and the most fun to watch. They took care of business. The 11-12 team kind of approached that. Last year's not so much. The argument here really isn't about going out and getting Orr's, Brashears, Booggard's and Scott's. The argument is going out and getting guys who can actually play whether they score a lot or not--some guys still can skate and play their position responsibly. Finding them is not always easy as there is not a lot of them but we should aim at getting and/or developing more players like that.

BTW Chris Neil can be a very good player and he was a force in the Rangers-Senators series in 11-12. He does not put up a lot of offense but he can cause a lot of havoc. One reason is he's a good skater (size, speed and agility)--and he's a very heavy bodychecker and is capable of going toe to toe with at least most of the best fighters in the league. He's a guy that softens up opponents. He is a bit overpaid--even so. Hendricks has never impressed me all that much.

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