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Old
09-08-2013, 04:29 PM
  #26
Matteus
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Originally Posted by Draft View Post
To be entirely honest, I can't see Dietz, Thrower, Ellis, Bennet, or Pateryn becoming NHL regulars. They seem like good prospects but I haven't seen anything spectacular in them that would make me believe they'd ever be more than bottom-pairing defenceman at best.

Tinordi, Beaulieu, and Nygren are the only prospects I see capable of potentially playing on the Habs in non-depth/starter roles in the next couple of years.
I don't know if you remember seeing Craig Rivet coming up but he had nothing on Dietz.


Last edited by Matteus: 09-08-2013 at 04:40 PM. Reason: typo
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09-08-2013, 04:30 PM
  #27
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Markov is done with the habs after this year...his salary is better put to use on someone else....too old
Well, first, Markov's contract will be up, so his next deal will be different.
Second, we just signed Briere to a 2year deal at 4M and he'll be 36 at the start of the year. He just went through back to back concussions and is coming off a poor year.

Markov will be 35 by next summer, and if he remains relatively healthy, he is a much bigger piece to the team than Briere. So I can see him being re-signed unless he asks for the moon.

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09-08-2013, 04:35 PM
  #28
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Originally Posted by Draft View Post
He lacks Pizzaz. He's a decent two-way defenceman but not spectacular at any aspect of the game. He's also a lower-round pick. In terms of how I'd rank them right now...

Nygren
Dietz
Ellis
Thrower

Ellis and Thrower both left something to be desired this year. I've had a couple chances to watch Nygren's games and I've really liked what I've seen. I've seen Dietz play lots in the last couple years and he's outshone Thrower nearly every single game. Ellis was meh when I watched him with Hamilton, not sure I see him as an NHLer.

Fair enough. Seems like a pretty safe bet that he will become a solid 5/6 D man for us though at some point. Much safer bet than Ellis or Thrower making it at all, at the moment.

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09-08-2013, 04:36 PM
  #29
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I think Mac Bennet is underestimated, he could very well be our version of Justin Schultz.

In a best case scenario in 4-5 years I think our defense should look something like this (I'm not accounting for trades or UFA).

Tinordi - Subban
Beaulieu - Nygren
Emelin/Ellis/Bennett - Dietz/Thrower

I would think Thrower could potably have a role on the 2nd and 3rd pair as well.


Last edited by Issacar: 09-08-2013 at 04:37 PM. Reason: Oh I even forgot to throw Gorges somewhere in there...
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09-08-2013, 05:50 PM
  #30
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Originally Posted by Westcoasthabsfan View Post
Markov is done with the habs after this year...his salary is better put to use on someone else....too old
I'm not sure I agree. If you can extend a guy like Markov at around 5 mil, you're better off keeping him than trying to replace him. I think they want to see how he looks early this year, do his legs come back better, the same or worse than last year. His skills are still there and he had 3-4 good years left if his legs bounce back. Guys like him don't grow on trees contrary to what some on here think.

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09-08-2013, 05:50 PM
  #31
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The only defenceman anywhere near Markov's ability in the 2014 UFA crop is Dion Phaneuf. It even thins out after that. Just let that sink in.
And Phaneuf is looking to play in the $6m salary bracket. That should send people to the Sign Markov corner quickly . If MArkov shows even close to what he did last year he's a must sign player. I trust Bergevin gets this and will make Markov a mid year signing priority.

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09-08-2013, 05:55 PM
  #32
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I'm not sure I agree. If you can extend a guy like Markov at around 5 mil, you're better off keeping him than trying to replace him. I think they want to see how he looks early this year, do his legs come back better, the same or worse than last year. His skills are still there and he had 3-4 good years left if his legs bounce back. Guys like him don't grow on trees contrary to what some on here think.
Exactly. I wouldn't be surprised if the salary is north of $5m but I also don't believe in jerking around your greatest and loyal players. Can't see Markov being unreasonable and can't see the organization dissing this category of player.

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09-08-2013, 06:14 PM
  #33
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I would offer Dan Girardi a contract. The big physical shot blocker this team can use. Not saying overpay to get him, but I hope the habs make an offer.

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09-08-2013, 09:42 PM
  #34
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I think it depends on how the season goes will shape the decision on whether or not to keep Markov. If we are out of the running for a playoff spot I would hope a few of the veterans like Pleks, Markov, Gionta and maybe another player or two will be traded at the trade deadline.

If we're not re-signing Markov, I hope we try Galchenyuk as the PP QB because I think he'll be our only hope to replace Markov but I'm confident we won't, instead choosing to fly by hope and prayer.

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09-08-2013, 09:51 PM
  #35
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I don't post often but I read this forum everyday as a hard core habs fan.

I find that most people here underestimate the difference of caliber between the various levels NCAA/CHL - AHL - NHL. For example, earlier this year, people were already putting Danny Kristo on the habs roster.

Truth is, unless you're a top 5 pick (sometimes a little higher) and you have elite-level talent like Alex G., you don't go straight from junior to the NHL. Even PK who is now a top D in this league completed his junior and spent time in Hamilton.

Most young players need a few years to develop in the AHL... so many youth Ellis, Beaulieu, Bennett, Pateryn, Thrower, Dietz, etc. will need time. And it is good to give them time. It takes take to develop and grow into a high-level, experienced hockey player.

Many here are willing to let go Markov. Markov isn't the all-star D he used to be. However, Markov at 75% of what he used to be is still A LOT better than any average D in this league. The key will be to give a usage that is more appropriate for a guy his age.

Plus, one thing to keep in mind regarding Andrei... he loves Montreal. It's his home now. He has become a Canadian citizen. This is the type of guy (reserved) who would love to finish his career as a Hab and will very likely accept a fair salary to remain a MTL canadiens. I am not saying he will not negotiate but he will not ask for the moon.

The team management would be absolutely silly to let this guy go. Granted he isn't what he used to be but this guy can easily gives us another 2-3 years of solid, reliable, effective hockey provided he is used a little less (18-20 minutes per game) and not as a #1 D but more as a #3 or #4. Markov as a #3 or #4 is awesome!

Let the young players grow, no rush... Emelin and Diaz are likely to be around a while too. They bring a lot to the table and are both still fairly young and getting into the better years of their life.

Subban / Diaz / Emelin will be there a while.
Markov / George at least for another 2 years.
Tinordi / Beaulieu are knocking at the door.
In time, of our other top 6-7 D prospects, probably that 3-4 will really become NHL regular. The rest will either be journeyman or will become AHLer.

The good thing is... we got depth and you can never have enough. Let them fight for a spot and the mentally tougher ones will make it!

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09-08-2013, 10:02 PM
  #36
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Originally Posted by 93nostalgic View Post
I don't post often but I read this forum everyday as a hard core habs fan.

I find that most people here underestimate the difference of caliber between the various levels NCAA/CHL - AHL - NHL. For example, earlier this year, people were already putting Danny Kristo on the habs roster.

Truth is, unless you're a top 5 pick (sometimes a little higher) and you have elite-level talent like Alex G., you don't go straight from junior to the NHL. Even PK who is now a top D in this league completed his junior and spent time in Hamilton.

Most young players need a few years to develop in the AHL... so many youth Ellis, Beaulieu, Bennett, Pateryn, Thrower, Dietz, etc. will need time. And it is good to give them time. It takes take to develop and grow into a high-level, experienced hockey player.

Many here are willing to let go Markov. Markov isn't the all-star D he used to be. However, Markov at 75% of what he used to be is still A LOT better than any average D in this league. The key will be to give a usage that is more appropriate for a guy his age.

Plus, one thing to keep in mind regarding Andrei... he loves Montreal. It's his home now. He has become a Canadian citizen. This is the type of guy (reserved) who would love to finish his career as a Hab and will very likely accept a fair salary to remain a MTL canadiens. I am not saying he will not negotiate but he will not ask for the moon.

The team management would be absolutely silly to let this guy go. Granted he isn't what he used to be but this guy can easily gives us another 2-3 years of solid, reliable, effective hockey provided he is used a little less (18-20 minutes per game) and not as a #1 D but more as a #3 or #4. Markov as a #3 or #4 is awesome!

Let the young players grow, no rush... Emelin and Diaz are likely to be around a while too. They bring a lot to the table and are both still fairly young and getting into the better years of their life.

Subban / Diaz / Emelin will be there a while.
Markov / George at least for another 2 years.
Tinordi / Beaulieu are knocking at the door.
In time, of our other top 6-7 D prospects, probably that 3-4 will really become NHL regular. The rest will either be journeyman or will become AHLer.

The good thing is... we got depth and you can never have enough. Let them fight for a spot and the mentally tougher ones will make it!
Don't want to get this too off topic, but majority of people are pencilling Kristo into the NYR line up to start the season and he's off to a good start at rookie camp / tournament.

But yes I agree with the rest of this, I'd like to see Markov to retire here.

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09-09-2013, 08:40 AM
  #37
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Originally Posted by 93nostalgic View Post

The good thing is... we got depth and you can never have enough. Let them fight for a spot and the mentally tougher ones will make it!

Well said, you see a team like Detroit bring guys up when they 24 and even older, and never draft very high, yet they keep on winning, and always have more players in the pipeline.

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09-09-2013, 08:51 AM
  #38
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Originally Posted by Dagistitsyn View Post
I like what I've seen from Dietz. How come he gets no love? Seems like a very well rounded and gritty D man. I think he is a better prospect than Ellis/Thrower. I'd say Nygren too but I know very little about him.

Is there anything he is really lacking that will hold him back from making it to the NHL?
I also like what i've seen from Dietz. It will be interesting to see how he adjusts to the pro game, imo he's going to need to get quicker/improve his mobility, but I'm excited to see what he can do with the Dogs.

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I think Mac Bennet is underestimated, he could very well be our version of Justin Schultz.
As a big fan of Bennett's game, it's unlikely that he ends up anywhere near Schultz who flat out dominated the NCAA. Bennett is more of a solid two way type with great mobility.

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09-09-2013, 10:27 AM
  #39
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I would offer Dan Girardi a contract. The big physical shot blocker this team can use. Not saying overpay to get him, but I hope the habs make an offer.
If Girardi hits the market he'll be one of the most coveted free agents, so don't expect to not overpay for him, especially in our post 2nd CBA days. The free agents go for insane money, just look at Briere that scored 6 goals last year is on a clear decline who's going to be 36 and he still hit a 2y deal at 4M. Heck, someone that scored 3goals signed a 5year deal just south of 5M, and a ''skilled'' grinder who never reached 50pts once in his career signed a 7year worth 36.75M!!..
So, forget about not overpaying for free agents. Teams are overpaying for these guys more so than they did in the previous years due to the no cap circumvention.

That's precisely why having guys like PK, Gallagher, Galchenyuk, MaxPac (pretty much your skilled kids) at cheap price for long term is important and well worth the risk.

Having good guys signed up for cheap money over a long period of time is key to building a championship team. Every team that won has a few of those guys.
As I said, with the cap not being circumvented as it was before with huge front loaded deals that dropped the cap space, signing players within the organization at a cheaper price is even more important now.

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09-09-2013, 11:22 AM
  #40
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Well, first, Markov's contract will be up, so his next deal will be different.
Second, we just signed Briere to a 2year deal at 4M and he'll be 36 at the start of the year. He just went through back to back concussions and is coming off a poor year.

Markov will be 35 by next summer, and if he remains relatively healthy, he is a much bigger piece to the team than Briere. So I can see him being re-signed unless he asks for the moon.
Sorry but playing defence in the NHL at 35, 36 is alot different then playing forward...which is why you see alot more forwards playing into their late 30s early 40s....dont get me wrong there are some defence that play to that age but far less... I think they are going to need Markovs money to pay for Subban because he is going to get and rightly deserve big money..... and the last time I checked the salary cap isnt going up next season and beyond.....

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09-09-2013, 11:40 AM
  #41
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Originally Posted by Monctonscout View Post
I'm not sure I agree. If you can extend a guy like Markov at around 5 mil, you're better off keeping him than trying to replace him. I think they want to see how he looks early this year, do his legs come back better, the same or worse than last year. His skills are still there and he had 3-4 good years left if his legs bounce back. Guys like him don't grow on trees contrary to what some on here think.

I have to disagree, I think that Markov is a very old 35 and you could tell at the end of just a half season...he looked very slow the last month and he was basically a non factor in the playoffs one point and it was on the PP.... His five on five play has demished and I dont think the Habs have the luxury of having a PP specialist....

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09-09-2013, 11:50 AM
  #42
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Originally Posted by Westcoasthabsfan View Post
Sorry but playing defence in the NHL at 35, 36 is alot different then playing forward...which is why you see alot more forwards playing into their late 30s early 40s....dont get me wrong there are some defence that play to that age but far less... I think they are going to need Markovs money to pay for Subban because he is going to get and rightly deserve big money..... and the last time I checked the salary cap isnt going up next season and beyond.....
Really? I've read countless times that it is going to go up.

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09-09-2013, 12:09 PM
  #43
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Sorry but playing defence in the NHL at 35, 36 is alot different then playing forward...which is why you see alot more forwards playing into their late 30s early 40s....dont get me wrong there are some defence that play to that age but far less... I think they are going to need Markovs money to pay for Subban because he is going to get and rightly deserve big money..... and the last time I checked the salary cap isnt going up next season and beyond.....
In fact the opposite is true. As a percentage of players in their positions there are FAR MORE defenseman in the 36+ category than forwards.

8.6 percent of the leagues defenseman will be 36 or older by years end
6.1 of the forwards are in this category.

Your anti-Markov stance has no real rationale or justification

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09-09-2013, 12:11 PM
  #44
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Well said, you see a team like Detroit bring guys up when they 24 and even older, and never draft very high, yet they keep on winning, and always have more players in the pipeline.
But this would require us to quit operating the way we have traditionally operated which is more or less completely opposite to how the Red wings run their shop.

1) Get a really good core and sign them to reasonable long-term contracts - like Datsyuk, Zetterberg and Lidstrom.

2) Develop a system and sign and draft players that fit within that system - enough of this BPA that doesn't fit within the team framework. An example would be because couldn't get Lecavalier so we'll sign Briere instead. If the players we want are available later on in the draft, trade down and if they are higher up, trade up.

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09-09-2013, 12:12 PM
  #45
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I have to disagree, I think that Markov is a very old 35 and you could tell at the end of just a half season...he looked very slow the last month and he was basically a non factor in the playoffs one point and it was on the PP.... His five on five play has demished and I dont think the Habs have the luxury of having a PP specialist....
Markov played in Europe and so he didn't have a half season.

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09-09-2013, 12:25 PM
  #46
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Really? I've read countless times that it is going to go up.
Same. I think it's a given that it's going up. Even with a conservative 5% growth rate. (It's closer to 8%, plus whatever the winter classics will bring).

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09-09-2013, 12:38 PM
  #47
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Originally Posted by Westcoasthabsfan View Post
Sorry but playing defence in the NHL at 35, 36 is alot different then playing forward...which is why you see alot more forwards playing into their late 30s early 40s....dont get me wrong there are some defence that play to that age but far less... I think they are going to need Markovs money to pay for Subban because he is going to get and rightly deserve big money..... and the last time I checked the salary cap isnt going up next season and beyond.....
On defence you can rely on proper positioning so even if you slow down you can still be effective.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Westcoasthabsfan View Post
I have to disagree, I think that Markov is a very old 35 and you could tell at the end of just a half season...he looked very slow the last month and he was basically a non factor in the playoffs one point and it was on the PP.... His five on five play has demished and I dont think the Habs have the luxury of having a PP specialist....
Some would argue if his knees are fine then he's a young 35 since he hasn't gone through the rigors of a full season for a few years. I remember the same comments being said about Koivu when he was in his early 30s. People said he's gone through so much that he wouldn't last to 35. They said his body is too old/frail and it will fall apart. Well he's still playing and contributing.

It's perfectly normal and was expected for Markov to have worn down at the end of the season. His body wasn't use to the daily grind of the regular season. He played in Russia so actually played over 70 games last year. The schedule was condensed so there was less rest between games.

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09-09-2013, 04:14 PM
  #48
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I'd keep:

Subban
Beaulieu
Tinordi
Emelin
Ellis
Pateryn

I haven't seen NHLer in anyone else. If we're talking Stanley Cup, we'll want to flip Gorges and Diaz. Gorges has heart but would give us more in a trade. Playoff games are won in front of the net and unfortunately Josh can't win those. Diaz is expendable.

Find a Morin next draft to add to those six and we're golden.

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09-09-2013, 04:18 PM
  #49
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Originally Posted by Ginu View Post
I'd keep:

Subban
Beaulieu
Tinordi
Emelin
Ellis
Pateryn

I haven't seen NHLer in anyone else. If we're talking Stanley Cup, we'll want to flip Gorges and Diaz. Gorges has heart but would give us more in a trade. Playoff games are won in front of the net and unfortunately Josh can't win those. Diaz is expendable.

Find a Morin next draft to add to those six and we're golden.
Ellis over Dietz..?

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09-09-2013, 04:18 PM
  #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 93nostalgic View Post
I don't post often but I read this forum everyday as a hard core habs fan.

I find that most people here underestimate the difference of caliber between the various levels NCAA/CHL - AHL - NHL. For example, earlier this year, people were already putting Danny Kristo on the habs roster.

Truth is, unless you're a top 5 pick (sometimes a little higher) and you have elite-level talent like Alex G., you don't go straight from junior to the NHL. Even PK who is now a top D in this league completed his junior and spent time in Hamilton.

Most young players need a few years to develop in the AHL... so many youth Ellis, Beaulieu, Bennett, Pateryn, Thrower, Dietz, etc. will need time. And it is good to give them time. It takes take to develop and grow into a high-level, experienced hockey player.

Many here are willing to let go Markov. Markov isn't the all-star D he used to be. However, Markov at 75% of what he used to be is still A LOT better than any average D in this league. The key will be to give a usage that is more appropriate for a guy his age.

Plus, one thing to keep in mind regarding Andrei... he loves Montreal. It's his home now. He has become a Canadian citizen. This is the type of guy (reserved) who would love to finish his career as a Hab and will very likely accept a fair salary to remain a MTL canadiens. I am not saying he will not negotiate but he will not ask for the moon.

The team management would be absolutely silly to let this guy go. Granted he isn't what he used to be but this guy can easily gives us another 2-3 years of solid, reliable, effective hockey provided he is used a little less (18-20 minutes per game) and not as a #1 D but more as a #3 or #4. Markov as a #3 or #4 is awesome!

Let the young players grow, no rush... Emelin and Diaz are likely to be around a while too. They bring a lot to the table and are both still fairly young and getting into the better years of their life.

Subban / Diaz / Emelin will be there a while.
Markov / George at least for another 2 years.
Tinordi / Beaulieu are knocking at the door.
In time, of our other top 6-7 D prospects, probably that 3-4 will really become NHL regular. The rest will either be journeyman or will become AHLer.

The good thing is... we got depth and you can never have enough. Let them fight for a spot and the mentally tougher ones will make it!
Solid, logical post.

While the short attention spans around here are ready to trade away anyone over 29, the reality is a winning team needs a balance of vets, especially those of Markov's calibre. His skill carries value, which we can either use or leverage in a trade. He's also shown he can stay healthy for a full season.

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