HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > General Hockey Discussion > The History of Hockey
The History of Hockey Relive great moments in hockey history and discuss how the game has changed over time.

Generational players, talents

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
09-07-2013, 12:25 AM
  #76
charliolemieux
No Lu-wiki Zone
 
charliolemieux's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Country: Canada
Posts: 9,474
vCash: 500
Time to alter our thinking.

I think it is time we start using a term like Historical Talent.

Because there are players who are top 4-5 of an entire generation and should be afforded the designation as being a Generational Talent. However there are only a select few who are Historical Talents. Players who resonate as being above and beyond even the Generational Talents they played against.

Ofcourse I am talking of the big 4 as being Historical Talents.

After the Lidstrom thread though I find myself feeling that it detracts from players like Bourque, Bo. Hull, Lidstrom, H. Richard, Jagr etc. for them not to be considered generationally elite. Because they are among the elite players of their generation.

So does it not make sense for the greatest players in all history to be called Historical Talents, and not just Generational Talents?

Just a 1:00am Friday night thought.

charliolemieux is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-07-2013, 12:34 AM
  #77
TAnnala
HFBoards Sponsor
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Oulu
Posts: 7,107
vCash: 131
I think you kind of make sense. But then again, do we really need more definitions about players abilities?

Maybe I am just against this cause I find basic listing to be the best and most effective way of ranking players. When I talk about Lidstrom, Pronger, Bourgue or Potvin I assume people know who they are and I don't have to try summarize their careers in one word.

TAnnala is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-07-2013, 12:51 AM
  #78
ozzie
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Australia
Posts: 847
vCash: 500
From the Original 6 era, I find it really hard that Bobby Hull could be off the list. One of the greatest goal scorers, who's stat line is extremely deceptive due to his WHA years. Who know what he could have accomplished had he stayed in the NHL during the 70's.

While I agree Roy's mastery of the butterfly ushered in a new era of goaltenders, I think Hasek's controlled chaos is something truly wonderful. Hasek circa 97/98 was just amazing and it is hard to picture a goalie playing any better. Half his career spent behind the iron curtain doesn't help his case, but he was pretty good there to.

Are you keeping this to the NHL or Hockey in general?

Tretriak could be considered maybe?

I like the OP list, but I would consider Bobby Hull to be there as well.

ozzie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-07-2013, 08:56 AM
  #79
livewell68
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 5,734
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by ozzie View Post
From the Original 6 era, I find it really hard that Bobby Hull could be off the list. One of the greatest goal scorers, who's stat line is extremely deceptive due to his WHA years. Who know what he could have accomplished had he stayed in the NHL during the 70's.

While I agree Roy's mastery of the butterfly ushered in a new era of goaltenders, I think Hasek's controlled chaos is something truly wonderful. Hasek circa 97/98 was just amazing and it is hard to picture a goalie playing any better. Half his career spent behind the iron curtain doesn't help his case, but he was pretty good there to.

Are you keeping this to the NHL or Hockey in general?

Tretriak could be considered maybe?

I like the OP list, but I would consider Bobby Hull to be there as well.
Thank you for your feedback, as you are probably one of the only posters that actually commented on my list instead of trying to turn it into argument of saying "generational" is useless...

As for Bobby Hull, do you think he belongs in the "generational talents" list? His numbers are incredible yes, but it wasn't the first time anyone dominated the scoring lists the way he did, Howe did it before him and Richard did it in terms of goals scoring.

Bobby Hull was basically a slightly better version of Maurice Richard in terms of goals scoring but he didn't do much to revolutionize the game. Come to think of it, I would put Jean Beliveau on the list before I would put Bobby Hull. Hull is a generational player though, no question about it.

livewell68 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-07-2013, 10:58 AM
  #80
LeBlondeDemon10
Registered User
 
LeBlondeDemon10's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Canada
Country: Canada
Posts: 2,375
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by livewell68 View Post
Thank you for your feedback, as you are probably one of the only posters that actually commented on my list instead of trying to turn it into argument of saying "generational" is useless...

As for Bobby Hull, do you think he belongs in the "generational talents" list? His numbers are incredible yes, but it wasn't the first time anyone dominated the scoring lists the way he did, Howe did it before him and Richard did it in terms of goals scoring.

Bobby Hull was basically a slightly better version of Maurice Richard in terms of goals scoring but he didn't do much to revolutionize the game. Come to think of it, I would put Jean Beliveau on the list before I would put Bobby Hull. Hull is a generational player though, no question about it.
Hull didn't do much to revolutionize the game? He took the slapshot to another level, he invented (along with Mikita) the curved stick, he was the first to wear a toupee in hockey, he spoke out against violence in hockey and last but not least he is a main reason players are paid as well as they are today. I'd say that's revolutionary.

LeBlondeDemon10 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-07-2013, 11:48 AM
  #81
Killion
Global Moderator
 
Killion's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 20,004
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by livewell68 View Post
As for Bobby Hull, do you think he belongs in the "generational talents" list? His numbers are incredible yes, but it wasn't the first time anyone dominated the scoring lists the way he did, Howe did it before him and Richard did it in terms of goals scoring.

Bobby Hull was basically a slightly better version of Maurice Richard in terms of goals scoring but he didn't do much to revolutionize the game. Come to think of it, I would put Jean Beliveau on the list before I would put Bobby Hull. Hull is a generational player though, no question about it.
... yes, Bobby Hull makes my list of Generational Talents, in the top tier along with Orr, Gretzky, Plante & a few others. Absolutely. He did in fact revolutionize the game. Changed it on & off the ice. His skating technique or style was studied by early power skating coaches who based many of their theories on his body posturing & grace of movement. Then theres the Slapshot. He wasnt the first to deploy it at the NHL level, Geoffrion & Bathgate in the 50's, but he was the one (along with Mikita) who really popularized it, a sensational new weapon of mass destruction, the Grand Slam home run of hockey that forever changed the game at every level. Then theres the off-ice contributions as LBD alludes to...

Quote:
Originally Posted by LeBlondeDemon10 View Post
Hull didn't do much to revolutionize the game? He took the slapshot to another level, he invented (along with Mikita) the curved stick, he was the first to wear a toupee in hockey, he spoke out against violence in hockey and last but not least he is a main reason players are paid as well as they are today. I'd say that's revolutionary.
.... ya, the curved sticks, Banana Blades, affected everything from how players handled the puck to shooting itself, revolutionary, game changer right there. Ah, the toupee? Not so much. ... ya, he did speak out against violence as earlier had Andy Bathgate in an article published in Sports Illustrated, Maurice Richard in Montreal papers, both of whom which received "sanctions" for doing so by the league; and then theres his battles with the Hawks over salary, again, his signing with the WHA leading the charge and finally breaking open the locks on repressive contracts and at every level of the game. Then theres his play itself. He was way ahead of his time. Can you imagine Hull in todays game in top condition? I have zero doubt he'd absolutely smoke the league and be without a doubt the games #1 Superstar just as he was in the 60's only more so what with the changes the games seen over the past 35+ years. Absolutely ideal conditions for #9. With his strength, skating skills, beyond dangerous. He loved the European & Russian game, excelled at it. Really be something to see.

Killion is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
09-07-2013, 05:30 PM
  #82
charliolemieux
No Lu-wiki Zone
 
charliolemieux's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Country: Canada
Posts: 9,474
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Killion View Post
... yes, Bobby Hull makes my list of Generational Talents, in the top tier along with Orr, Gretzky, Plante & a few others. Absolutely.
This is why I think there needs to be another level.

Hull, Richard, Bourque, Jagr, etc. are definitely elite talents of a generation, but can they really be put in the same tier as Gretzky, Lemieux, Orr and Howe?

charliolemieux is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-07-2013, 05:38 PM
  #83
Killion
Global Moderator
 
Killion's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 20,004
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by charliolemieux View Post
This is why I think there needs to be another level.

Hull, Richard, Bourque, Jagr, etc. are definitely elite talents of a generation, but can they really be put in the same tier as Gretzky, Lemieux, Orr and Howe?
Richard, Bourque & Jagr I consider Generational Players whereas Bobby Hull like Orr, Gretzky & Plante etc I consider both Generational Players & Transcendental Generational Talents who actually altered the game & or the way a positon was played. I dont think Richard, Bourque or Jagr did that in any meaningful way. Tremendous players, best of their age & Generation sure enough but did they re-define & or re-invent anything?

Killion is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
09-07-2013, 06:01 PM
  #84
charliolemieux
No Lu-wiki Zone
 
charliolemieux's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Country: Canada
Posts: 9,474
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Killion View Post
Richard, Bourque & Jagr I consider Generational Players whereas Bobby Hull like Orr, Gretzky & Plante etc I consider both Generational Players & Transcendental Generational Talents who actually altered the game & or the way a positon was played. I dont think Richard, Bourque or Jagr did that in any meaningful way. Tremendous players, best of their age & Generation sure enough but did they re-define & or re-invent anything?
I see.

So would you expand the "Top 4" to included Hull and Plante?


Just because they are not in the debate for "best ever" does not mean they weren't on the same or similar level.

Oh and isn't "Transcendental Generational Talents" re-defining something?

Historical Talent is a bit easier on the tongue. I think there needs to be a another definition, because Jagr is definitely a generational talent, but he simply isn't on the same level as Mario or Wayne.

charliolemieux is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-07-2013, 06:12 PM
  #85
Killion
Global Moderator
 
Killion's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 20,004
vCash: 500
^^^ "Transcendental"? Just threw that in to underline my point, no re-definition intended.... But yes, Id include Plante & Hull in that category along with Orr & Gretzky, but I wouldnt include Lemieux in it. How did Mario re-define or de-invent the game as a Centre be it positionally or in terms of team play, offensively or defensively? He like Beliveau & Richard, Jagr & others a brilliant Talent yes, but beyond that?

Killion is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
09-07-2013, 06:53 PM
  #86
charliolemieux
No Lu-wiki Zone
 
charliolemieux's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Country: Canada
Posts: 9,474
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Killion View Post
^^^ "Transcendental"? Just threw that in to underline my point, no re-definition intended.... But yes, Id include Plante & Hull in that category along with Orr & Gretzky, but I wouldnt include Lemieux in it. How did Mario re-define or de-invent the game as a Centre be it positionally or in terms of team play, offensively or defensively? He like Beliveau & Richard, Jagr & others a brilliant Talent yes, but beyond that?
Wow.

Interesting point.

Lemieux was basically Gretzky with size and a harder shot.

I think that is how he changed the game. He changed how big players could play the game. He used his strength and size without overtly banging and crashing. He was the Anti-Lindros(Who was talent, Size, strength, physicality, and aggressiveness. )

He was the best ever of the Sundin, Jagr, Francis, type big (6'3"+) skilled forward.

IS that enough argument to sway you?

Well that and he is the only one in the last 40yrs who could hold a candle to Gretzky.

charliolemieux is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-08-2013, 08:23 AM
  #87
Sentinel
Registered User
 
Sentinel's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: New Jersey
Country: United States
Posts: 2,297
vCash: 500
Should "generational" also include unique? If so, Datsyuk belongs. His moves have never been seen before, and I'm pretty sure many kids are trying them now

Sentinel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-08-2013, 11:44 AM
  #88
Killion
Global Moderator
 
Killion's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 20,004
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by charliolemieux View Post
Wow.

Interesting point.

Lemieux was basically Gretzky with size and a harder shot.

I think that is how he changed the game. He changed how big players could play the game. He used his strength and size without overtly banging and crashing. He was the Anti-Lindros(Who was talent, Size, strength, physicality, and aggressiveness. )

He was the best ever of the Sundin, Jagr, Francis, type big (6'3"+) skilled forward.

IS that enough argument to sway you?

Well that and he is the only one in the last 40yrs who could hold a candle to Gretzky.
... no no no charliolemieux, thats not what Im sayin. Stahp.... Lemieux was not "Wayne Gretzky with size and a harder shot". To me Mario was like a hybrid of the best of Jean Beliveau, Phil Esposito & a Mike Bossy type and yes with elements of Gretzky to his game but a different animal altogether. Yes, top 4 player ALL TIME, but not a guy who actually changed the way the games played... unless you want to ascribe the rule changes & removal of the center ice red line coming out of the 2004/05 Lockout to his complaints throughout his career as to how the game was being played and that it was his lobbying that precipitated such? Id be good with that actually. Makes for a good story, sounds plausible oui?... Ok. Lets go with that. Mario promoted.

Killion is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
09-08-2013, 12:03 PM
  #89
Killion
Global Moderator
 
Killion's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 20,004
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sentinel View Post
Should "generational" also include unique? If so, Datsyuk belongs. His moves have never been seen before, and I'm pretty sure many kids are trying them now
I'd definitely rank Dats in the top Generational Player category, right up there with Keon, Henri Richard etc. Actually my favorite player of the last several years but again, he hasnt "changed the game". How has Pavel changed the game Sentinel? Sure he's brilliant & highly creative, but Im not seeing anything thats altered how his position or the game itself is played. What patented Datsyuk move or moves you referring to? Lets see some clips without this thread turning into a giant Valentine to Pavel Datsyuk.

Killion is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
09-08-2013, 01:47 PM
  #90
livewell68
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 5,734
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by charliolemieux View Post
Wow.

Interesting point.

Lemieux was basically Gretzky with size and a harder shot.

I think that is how he changed the game. He changed how big players could play the game. He used his strength and size without overtly banging and crashing. He was the Anti-Lindros(Who was talent, Size, strength, physicality, and aggressiveness. )

He was the best ever of the Sundin, Jagr, Francis, type big (6'3"+) skilled forward.

IS that enough argument to sway you?

Well that and he is the only one in the last 40yrs who could hold a candle to Gretzky.
Francis?

livewell68 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-08-2013, 01:49 PM
  #91
livewell68
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 5,734
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sentinel View Post
Should "generational" also include unique? If so, Datsyuk belongs. His moves have never been seen before, and I'm pretty sure many kids are trying them now
Huh? How have Datsyuk's moves never been seen before? I would think Bure, Lemieux, Kovalev and Jagr all have had some dekes in their careers where they pulled that Datsyuk has pulled and then some.

livewell68 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-08-2013, 02:28 PM
  #92
charliolemieux
No Lu-wiki Zone
 
charliolemieux's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Country: Canada
Posts: 9,474
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by livewell68 View Post
Francis?
6'3" skilled and not a banger and crasher. That is basically all the criteria was.

charliolemieux is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-08-2013, 02:31 PM
  #93
charliolemieux
No Lu-wiki Zone
 
charliolemieux's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Country: Canada
Posts: 9,474
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Killion View Post
... no no no charliolemieux, thats not what Im sayin. Stahp.... Lemieux was not "Wayne Gretzky with size and a harder shot". To me Mario was like a hybrid of the best of Jean Beliveau, Phil Esposito & a Mike Bossy type and yes with elements of Gretzky to his game but a different animal altogether. Yes, top 4 player ALL TIME, but not a guy who actually changed the way the games played... unless you want to ascribe the rule changes & removal of the center ice red line coming out of the 2004/05 Lockout to his complaints throughout his career as to how the game was being played and that it was his lobbying that precipitated such? Id be good with that actually. Makes for a good story, sounds plausible oui?... Ok. Lets go with that. Mario promoted.
Sounds good.

charliolemieux is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-08-2013, 02:38 PM
  #94
livewell68
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 5,734
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by charliolemieux View Post
6'3" skilled and not a banger and crasher. That is basically all the criteria was.
I never realized how tall he was, darn, I used to think he was 6'0 or whatever. He was only about 200 lbs though.

livewell68 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-08-2013, 02:48 PM
  #95
Crosbyfan
Registered User
 
Crosbyfan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 7,182
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by livewell68 View Post
I never realized how tall he was, darn, I used to think he was 6'0 or whatever. He was only about 200 lbs though.
...must have been standing too close to Mario too often...I didn't think he was that tall either

Crosbyfan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-08-2013, 06:40 PM
  #96
Fred Taylor
The Cyclone
 
Fred Taylor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 2,280
vCash: 500
Generational Goalies: Hasek, Roy, Plante, Hall, Sawchuk, Brodeur, Lundqvist.

Generational Defenseman: Orr, Harvey, Shore, Bourque, Potvin, Lidstrom, Robinson, Kelly, Coffey, Fetisov, Chelios, Pronger, Chara. (Maybe Karlsson in the future).

Generational Forwards: Gretzky, Lemieux, Howe, Beliveau, Hull, Richard, Morenz, Taylor, Mikita, Esposito, Clarke, Lafleur, Dionne, Kharlamov, Makarov, Bossy, Trottier, Kurri, Messier, Jagr, Forsberg, Lindros, Bure, Fedorov, Selanne, Sakic, Yzerman, Crosby, Ovechkin, Malkin, Datsyuk. (Maybe Stamkos in the future).

This was all off the top of my head so I hope I didn't miss anyone important. I probably have a broader list of generational players than most, but IMO all of these players mentioned are the elite of the elite in NHL history and many unique in their own way.

Fred Taylor is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 08:17 AM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2014 All Rights Reserved.