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Jean Beliveau vs. Bobby Hull

View Poll Results: Jean Beliveau or Bobby Hull?
Hull 54 40.60%
Beliveau 79 59.40%
Voters: 133. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
09-07-2013, 12:59 PM
  #51
TAnnala
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Didn't read any of the responses. I realize there is a real game who is better.

For me it is Beliveau. It wasn't at first, but now it is.

Jean was the epitome of franchise player.

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Old
09-07-2013, 01:25 PM
  #52
vadim sharifijanov
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Originally Posted by livewell68 View Post
Why does Bobby Hull get so much credit for his WHA numbers?
conspiracy against jagr

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Old
09-07-2013, 06:26 PM
  #53
Ed Wood
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When I was a kid playing street hockey I was always Jean Beliveau so it's an easy choice for me. I actually have Beliveau and Hull as fourth and fifth best forwards ever.

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Old
09-07-2013, 10:12 PM
  #54
Crosbyfan
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Both phenomenal athletes and great competitors

But Beliveau easily for me.

One of the best forwards on the planet, and provably highest paid, before he even entered the league at 22 in 1953 (although he broke his ankle and missed much of that first season).

The best player on the Canadiens in their late fifties dynasty, leading them to the 5 straight Cups. Lead them in goals, assists, points, penalty minutes (this was before John Ferguson joined the Canadiens and carried that load).

Most of this dynasty was gone in the early sixties and Beliveau, now early thirties, still kept Montreal at or near the top even while rebuilding at that time. The Hawks had as much depth and more star power. People seem to forget Hull and Mikita were 7 or 8 years younger than Beliveau and closer to their primes when comparing them through the sixties.

Montreal got stronger again through the mid to late sixties but the Hawks had some very good rosters as well. The veteran leadership and playoff savvy of Beliveau and Henri Richard was a huge part of the difference in their success.

Hull was obviously a phenomenal athlete and great competitor, but was not always the best on his team. Mikita had what, 3 Art Ross and 2 Harts in the sixties?

How good did Hull make his line mate Esposito? I think Phil did considerably better immediately after he left for Boston. In fact he outscored Hull every year after that.

You can't go wrong picking either player, but I would say only if you want goals Hull has the edge. Take Beliveau if you want to win playoff series, with his all around game as a centreman and leadership on and off ice.

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Old
09-08-2013, 06:00 AM
  #55
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I'll go with Beliveau because I mostly value two-way players. Plus 10>1 Cups. In this kind of comparisons, it's always good to look at the head-to-head performances, and Jean slaughters Bobby here.

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Old
09-08-2013, 05:28 PM
  #56
Hawkey Town 18
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Originally Posted by Crosbyfan View Post
But Beliveau easily for me.

One of the best forwards on the planet, and provably highest paid, before he even entered the league at 22 in 1953 (although he broke his ankle and missed much of that first season).

The best player on the Canadiens in their late fifties dynasty, leading them to the 5 straight Cups. Lead them in goals, assists, points, penalty minutes (this was before John Ferguson joined the Canadiens and carried that load).

Most of this dynasty was gone in the early sixties and Beliveau, now early thirties, still kept Montreal at or near the top even while rebuilding at that time. The Hawks had as much depth and more star power. People seem to forget Hull and Mikita were 7 or 8 years younger than Beliveau and closer to their primes when comparing them through the sixties.

Montreal got stronger again through the mid to late sixties but the Hawks had some very good rosters as well. The veteran leadership and playoff savvy of Beliveau and Henri Richard was a huge part of the difference in their success.

Hull was obviously a phenomenal athlete and great competitor, but was not always the best on his team. Mikita had what, 3 Art Ross and 2 Harts in the sixties?

How good did Hull make his line mate Esposito? I think Phil did considerably better immediately after he left for Boston. In fact he outscored Hull every year after that.

You can't go wrong picking either player, but I would say only if you want goals Hull has the edge. Take Beliveau if you want to win playoff series, with his all around game as a centreman and leadership on and off ice.
Not sure how much this will factor into an overall player comparison, but the bolded is the opposite of what I usually hear from people on this board. Many times I have heard people say that the Hawks were not as deep as the Habs and Leafs, and that was the real explanation for their lack of Cups (and poor coaching). That statement often coming in the context of someone explaining that the Hawks big stars (Hull, Mikita, Pilote, Hall) mainly performed well in the playoffs.

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Old
09-08-2013, 07:03 PM
  #57
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Originally Posted by Hawkey Town 18 View Post
Not sure how much this will factor into an overall player comparison, but the bolded is the opposite of what I usually hear from people on this board. Many times I have heard people say that the Hawks were not as deep as the Habs and Leafs, and that was the real explanation for their lack of Cups (and poor coaching). That statement often coming in the context of someone explaining that the Hawks big stars (Hull, Mikita, Pilote, Hall) mainly performed well in the playoffs.
That was in particular referring to the early to mid sixties.

The Hawks finished top 3 in the league every year in the sixties up to and including 1967, when they finished first. At that point they had "The Trade" with the last place Bruins, that sent Bobby Hull's centreman Phil Esposito, along with Ken Hodge and Fred Stanfield to the Bruins in trade for Pit Martin, Jack Norris and Gilles Marrotte.

The Bruins certainly won the trade. The Bruins finished ahead of the Hawks every year after that until who knows when (probably a good Trivia question...sometime in the eighties?) and Esposito likewise always finished ahead of Hull in scoring (Hull departed for the WHA in 1972)

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Old
09-08-2013, 07:10 PM
  #58
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Beliveau quickly earned respect from his peers, and "highly respected" best describes him.

Hull's peers held him in awe and feared him. "Awesome" best describes him.

Beliveau was a leadership torch-bearer whose later day successors (eg, Sakic, Yzerman) carried themselves and performed like slightly inferior versions of the Original.

Hull was electrifying, and he set the standard for bringing people out of their seats. Lafleur and, today, Ovechkin, follow in Hull's footsteps. They also are B-level versions of the Original.

The choice between them is a bit like choosing between a do-it-all centre (Crosby?) and a kill-you-with-power winger (Ovechkin?). Again, both are contemporary B-versions.

I suspect that, if Beliveau had been a Hawk, there would be a few more SC banners in Chi-town. Similarly, if Hull had been a Hab, fans in Montreal would rank him side by side or even ahead of Richard.

Hull (with help from the Howes) had the personality and skills to carry an entire league without cracking under the pressure. Awesome.

But Beliveau can flash gold on every finger and thumb of both hands. We respect this so much.

If I ran an expansion team and had to pick one player to start, it's Hull. He'll fill the joint. But when I have to add a player to make us winners, it's Beliveau and he gets the "C".

I can't believe I'm saying this, but dead heat. Since I can't yet vote anyway, perhaps this is fitting.

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09-08-2013, 07:23 PM
  #59
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Still go with Beliveau, as I did in 2012. No disrespect to Hull, but with Beliveau the serious question we should ask is what couldn't this guy do, and in what part of his game was just "good"?

Skating, passing, scoring, leadership, playoff resume, defensive play, clutch play, elevating his teammates' play

Very much like a perfect hockey player.

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09-09-2013, 08:00 AM
  #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crosbyfan View Post
How good did Hull make his line mate Esposito? I think Phil did considerably better immediately after he left for Boston. In fact he outscored Hull every year after that.
Thatīs matter of game plan. How exactly had Hull - premier sniper and physical player on his own - make Esposito - barely skating garbage goals scorer - better? In fact Esposito was just another pack of mass through which Hull had to snipe. On the other hand, there is not a universe in which would Esposito find the better gameplan than puck-carrying rushing Orr.
Hull type of players are not on the ice to make linemates better, they are there to successfully finish the action.

I donīt get all that franchise player stuff, sure Believeau could be nice, but what that has with his play on the ice?

Forced to pick between them I pick Hull 10/10.

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09-09-2013, 10:26 AM
  #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crosbyfan View Post
... and Esposito likewise always finished ahead of Hull in scoring (Hull departed for the WHA in 1972)
Bobby Orr

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09-09-2013, 10:59 AM
  #62
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Originally Posted by vadim sharifijanov View Post
conspiracy against jagr
Post of the Day

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Old
09-09-2013, 11:21 AM
  #63
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Chose Bobby Hull.

I just think that Hull was a slightly more unique player than Beliveau.

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09-09-2013, 11:38 AM
  #64
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The homer in me wants to vote Beliveau because of the myriad ways he brings value and excellence to an organization and nothing that could even flippantly be described as a "weak area", but I have got to believe that the best of Hull makes any team more dangerous/hard to beat than the best of Beliveau. Tough call, though, because Beliveau is the one of the two who offers more ways to "skin a cat", so to speak.

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09-09-2013, 12:00 PM
  #65
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Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
The homer in me wants to vote Beliveau because of the myriad ways he brings value and excellence to an organization and nothing that could even flippantly be described as a "weak area", but I have got to believe that the best of Hull makes any team more dangerous/hard to beat than the best of Beliveau. Tough call, though, because Beliveau is the one of the two who offers more ways to "skin a cat", so to speak.
Odd, in the Feds vs. Jagr thread you chose differently

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09-09-2013, 12:33 PM
  #66
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Odd, in the Feds vs. Jagr thread you chose differently
Really? I haven't actually "chosen" in either. I think I'm leaning towards Fedorov over there, just like I'm inclined to lean toward Beliveau here (although, being a lifetime Habs fan, it's foolish to think there's nothing in that swaying my thinking). I fully recognize, btw, that Jagr is a "better" player than Fedorov in just about any historical context, and in a vacuum makes a team "more dangerous" (not always the same as "more effective" in practice). I just don't think '98/99 is necessarily Jagr's individual best (despite what can be displayed statistically), nor am I convinced it's necessarily "better" than Fedorov's '93/94, that's all.

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09-09-2013, 02:08 PM
  #67
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Beliveau.

Reasons: Both have great resumes, but Beliveau's a huge center, which I'm partial toward when the other guy's (I guess at the time) an average-sized wing.

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09-09-2013, 02:12 PM
  #68
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Originally Posted by Big Phil View Post
Still go with Beliveau, as I did in 2012. No disrespect to Hull, but with Beliveau the serious question we should ask is what couldn't this guy do, and in what part of his game was just "good"?

Skating, passing, scoring, leadership, playoff resume, defensive play, clutch play, elevating his teammates' play

Very much like a perfect hockey player.
Yeah, I also view him as basically the prototype for top line center.

Like, I'm sure if you asked a GM to give a vague description of what they want their first line center to be (other than cheeky responses like "Wayne Gretzky"), most would want him to be a big, rangy, intelligent two-way guy who could skate, pass and shoot.

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09-09-2013, 02:43 PM
  #69
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Originally Posted by Hawkman View Post
Bobby Orr
No doubt that added to the difference going forward, but that first year Espo was in Boston he finished 2nd in scoring behind Stan Mikita. Orr, at 19 years old in his second season, missed a number of games and was not even in the top 10 on the Bruins, with 10 less points than he had the previous season as a rookie.

So it was not entirely Bobby Orr, and certainly not expected that Espos scoring would increase significantly when not on a line with Hull.

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09-09-2013, 03:00 PM
  #70
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Originally Posted by begbeee View Post
Thatīs matter of game plan. How exactly had Hull - premier sniper and physical player on his own - make Esposito - barely skating garbage goals scorer - better? In fact Esposito was just another pack of mass through which Hull had to snipe. On the other hand, there is not a universe in which would Esposito find the better gameplan than puck-carrying rushing Orr.
Hull type of players are not on the ice to make linemates better, they are there to successfully finish the action.

I donīt get all that franchise player stuff, sure Believeau could be nice, but what that has with his play on the ice?

Forced to pick between them I pick Hull 10/10.
The Cups were nice. Finishing his career tops in playoff scoring was also.

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09-09-2013, 03:03 PM
  #71
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Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
Really? I haven't actually "chosen" in either. I think I'm leaning towards Fedorov over there, just like I'm inclined to lean toward Beliveau here (although, being a lifetime Habs fan, it's foolish to think there's nothing in that swaying my thinking). I fully recognize, btw, that Jagr is a "better" player than Fedorov in just about any historical context, and in a vacuum makes a team "more dangerous" (not always the same as "more effective" in practice). I just don't think '98/99 is necessarily Jagr's individual best (despite what can be displayed statistically), nor am I convinced it's necessarily "better" than Fedorov's '93/94, that's all.
What season do you think? 1996? That's really the only one I think compares to 1999.

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09-09-2013, 05:07 PM
  #72
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What season do you think? 1996? That's really the only one I think compares to 1999.
Everyone loves '98/99 for Jagr because it's "untainted" by Lemieux's presence/impact. Well I don't care about that. 60 goal scoring (or pace) Jagr with someone else around who could more than keep up skill-wise was one of the most dangerous things to be seen on 1990s NHL ice surfaces. Heck, his production in the '00/01 regular season is almost more impressive when you compare how low playoff scoring ended up. Both he and Lemieux were <PPG, but absolutely torched the regular season. I think it took more work to drag that team to the Conference Final than it took lose to Toronto in '99, but this is all a long time ago for my memory at this point, lol.

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09-09-2013, 06:07 PM
  #73
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Originally Posted by Crosbyfan View Post
...So it was not entirely Bobby Orr, and certainly not expected that Espos scoring would increase significantly when not on a line with Hull.
It was not expected that scoring would go up playing with Bobby Orr.

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09-09-2013, 06:23 PM
  #74
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It was not expected that scoring would go up playing with Bobby Orr.
Moderator gets good laugh at Crosbyfan thinking 19 year old Orr with 31 points would have more effect than prime Bobby Hull...

Bobby Hull called...he doesn't like your argument! Asks you to please argue for Beliveau.


Last edited by Crosbyfan: 09-09-2013 at 06:40 PM.
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09-09-2013, 07:04 PM
  #75
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Originally Posted by Hawkman View Post
Bobby Orr
I don't think it was Orr that helped Esposito as much as it was the Bruins using Esposito the way he was meant to be used. Hodge and Cashman working the corners and getting him the puck was just as intergral to his success as Orr.

Nor do I think it was Bobby Hull's fault Esposito did not score more in Chicago. Chicago used him all wrong.

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