HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > General Hockey Discussion > The History of Hockey
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
The History of Hockey Relive great moments in hockey history and discuss how the game has changed over time.

Players who should have their number retired ... but haven't

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
09-02-2013, 04:00 PM
  #51
Peter9
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Los Angeles, USA
Country: United States
Posts: 393
vCash: 500
Although my club, the Canadiens, have, I believe, retired more numbers than any other, I'm against retiring numbers. It was nice to see the lower numbers on the ice in my boyhood years, when only Morenz's number had been retired. What I favor is honoring the player by raising his jersey with number to the rafters. It is no dishonor to the player that his number is worn by less worthy players. Many players wore the numbers of some of the players whose jersey numbers have since been retired.

Peter9 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-02-2013, 04:16 PM
  #52
Killion
Global Moderator
 
Killion's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Casablanca
Country: Morocco
Posts: 26,159
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter9 View Post
Although my club, the Canadiens, have, I believe, retired more numbers than any other, I'm against retiring numbers. It was nice to see the lower numbers on the ice in my boyhood years, when only Morenz's number had been retired. What I favor is honoring the player by raising his jersey with number to the rafters. It is no dishonor to the player that his number is worn by less worthy players. Many players wore the numbers of some of the players whose jersey numbers have since been retired.
In my boyhood, there were no numbers on jerseys. Those ****** Patrick's and their PCHA. Messin with tradition.

But yes, back in the day the numbers followed a system or rote according to position. If you were a Defenceman, youd usually wear number 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, maybe 8. From 9 on up, forwards, and nothing past 28. Goalies wore #1 if you were the starter, and even then going way back the #1 was often shared with a back-up if the starter ever got hurt, expected to play the full season, all games. That was banned, #30 coming into vogue. Id like to see the NHL returning to that and drop the names on the backs of the jerseys altogether. However, with so many numbers now retired for some teams like Montreal quite impossible. Then theres the issue of merchandising, jersey sales. In addition to the variations & changes most teams practice, without a name on the back the wearer might not need a new one every 2-3yrs.

Killion is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
09-02-2013, 10:10 PM
  #53
Peter9
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Los Angeles, USA
Country: United States
Posts: 393
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Killion View Post
In my boyhood, there were no numbers on jerseys. Those ****** Patrick's and their PCHA. Messin with tradition.

But yes, back in the day the numbers followed a system or rote according to position. If you were a Defenceman, youd usually wear number 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, maybe 8. From 9 on up, forwards, and nothing past 28. Goalies wore #1 if you were the starter, and even then going way back the #1 was often shared with a back-up if the starter ever got hurt, expected to play the full season, all games. That was banned, #30 coming into vogue. Id like to see the NHL returning to that and drop the names on the backs of the jerseys altogether. However, with so many numbers now retired for some teams like Montreal quite impossible. Then theres the issue of merchandising, jersey sales. In addition to the variations & changes most teams practice, without a name on the back the wearer might not need a new one every 2-3yrs.
The North American teams are better at not tampering with tradition than the major sports teams in much of the rest of the world. For one thing--and it's huge--they don't allow advertising on their uniforms (except in Major League Soccer, which imitates the association football teams in the rest of the world in allowing it). And second, they don't really vary the uniform that much. The big football teams of Europe change both their home and away strips every year so that fans will buy the replicas every year. At $60 or more for a replica jersey, that runs into big bucks, especially if you have four kids all clamoring for the latest jerseys.

I hope the NHL teams remain firm on this. I would hate to see the Original Six teams make big changes in their jerseys every year (or at all). The others I don't really care about; they have such bad taste anyway, with a couple of exceptions. I feared the introduction of third alternate jerseys and old-time jerseys was perhaps an opening that would lead to regular uniform changes, but that appears, thankfully, not to be the case.

And I would hate to see ads on the jerseys. I don't think the fans would stand for that. They must stand firm on that.

Killion, you can make fun of it, but wouldn't it be nice to see players from the Canadiens wearing Nos. 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 7, 9, 10 and 12 once again? Fortunately, the Canadiens are so mediocre these days we're unlikely to see any numbers of recent players retired, although Toe Blake, the Old Lamplighter certainly deserves his number 6 honored as the only member of the fabled Punch Line whose number has not been retired.

Numbers of the greats can be honored appropriately simply by raising their jerseys to the rafters without retiring the numbers. Just announce a new policy that breaks with the old tradition of retiring numbers. You see, I'm now an anti-traditionalist, in fact a revolutionary. It's all a matter of how you put it, and you, of all people on this board, know that from your work.

Peter9 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-02-2013, 10:41 PM
  #54
Killion
Global Moderator
 
Killion's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Casablanca
Country: Morocco
Posts: 26,159
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter9 View Post
Killion, you can make fun of it, but wouldn't it be nice to see players from the Canadiens wearing Nos. 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 7, 9, 10 and 12 once again? Fortunately, the Canadiens are so mediocre these days we're unlikely to see any numbers of recent players retired, although Toe Blake, the Old Lamplighter certainly deserves his number 6 honored as the only member of the fabled Punch Line whose number has not been retired.

Numbers of the greats can be honored appropriately simply by raising their jerseys to the rafters without retiring the numbers. Just announce a new policy that breaks with the old tradition of retiring numbers. You see, I'm now an anti-traditionalist, in fact a revolutionary. It's all a matter of how you put it, and you, of all people on this board, know that from your work.
No, not making fun of it Peter, Id like to see all of the clubs with league mandated low numbers, single digits for Defenceman, high single & double digits up to 27 or 28 for Forwards, #1 or #30, maybe #24 or 35 for the Goalies, and Im serious, remove the names from the back of the jersey. Not required.... as for the advertising, I fear its coming, already exists in the AHL, serious money involved at the NHL level. Likely just a small patch upper right chest panel.... Do I like it or approve? Not a chance. No way. But alas, the league doesnt seem to care quite so much about its traditions as most here & elsewhere do, people who love & respect the history of the game, the players, coaches & managers, the wonderful old buildings...

Killion is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
09-03-2013, 04:45 PM
  #55
BadgerBruce
Registered User
 
BadgerBruce's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Posts: 217
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Killion View Post
No, not making fun of it Peter, Id like to see all of the clubs with league mandated low numbers, single digits for Defenceman, high single & double digits up to 27 or 28 for Forwards, #1 or #30, maybe #24 or 35 for the Goalies, and Im serious, remove the names from the back of the jersey. Not required.... as for the advertising, I fear its coming, already exists in the AHL, serious money involved at the NHL level. Likely just a small patch upper right chest panel.... Do I like it or approve? Not a chance. No way. But alas, the league doesnt seem to care quite so much about its traditions as most here & elsewhere do, people who love & respect the history of the game, the players, coaches & managers, the wonderful old buildings...
At one time, jersey number was indicative of a player's relative security and seniority on the team. The higher the number, the less secure one's roster spot.
Richard (15), Howe (17) and Hull (16) all started their NHL careers sporting numbers that screamed "rookie." This was normal, and a jersey number change to something lower was good news for the newbie but obviously bad news for an older vet, who in nearly all cases left the club.

Charlie Sands wore #9 prior to the Rocket, and the poor guy ended up being "loaned" to NYR and eventually played just 9 (ironic, eh?) more NHL games.

Roy Conacher wore #9 for the Wings in Howe's rookie year and then in the Fall of '47 found himself on the outside looking in (traded first to NYR, where he refused to report, and then to Blackhawks a week or so later, where he won an Art Ross). Better fate and future than poor Charlie!

Hull went from 16 to 7 and then to 9, which no Hawk wore for a season after veteran Bronco Horvath joined the Leafs. But Hull did swap 16 for 7 (a "safe" number), which had also been unused for a season after Ted Lindsay's first retirement.

All of which makes me wonder: do the descendants of Charlie Sands' poke their kids in the ribs and say, "look up there, Billy, that's your great grandpa's old jersey up in them rafters!"

BadgerBruce is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-03-2013, 06:24 PM
  #56
Mayor Bee
\/me_____you\/
 
Mayor Bee's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 16,267
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by BadgerBruce View Post
At one time, jersey number was indicative of a player's relative security and seniority on the team. The higher the number, the less secure one's roster spot.
Richard (15), Howe (17) and Hull (16) all started their NHL careers sporting numbers that screamed "rookie." This was normal, and a jersey number change to something lower was good news for the newbie but obviously bad news for an older vet, who in nearly all cases left the club.

Charlie Sands wore #9 prior to the Rocket, and the poor guy ended up being "loaned" to NYR and eventually played just 9 (ironic, eh?) more NHL games.

Roy Conacher wore #9 for the Wings in Howe's rookie year and then in the Fall of '47 found himself on the outside looking in (traded first to NYR, where he refused to report, and then to Blackhawks a week or so later, where he won an Art Ross). Better fate and future than poor Charlie!

Hull went from 16 to 7 and then to 9, which no Hawk wore for a season after veteran Bronco Horvath joined the Leafs. But Hull did swap 16 for 7 (a "safe" number), which had also been unused for a season after Ted Lindsay's first retirement.

All of which makes me wonder: do the descendants of Charlie Sands' poke their kids in the ribs and say, "look up there, Billy, that's your great grandpa's old jersey up in them rafters!"
An old friend of mine played major college football, and his number was taken by the incumbent starting quarterback. When the QB graduated, my friend swooped in and took the number. What this meant was that thousands of jerseys were sold at clearance, which a ton of people bought up.

I tried to needle him about it once, but he said that it was pretty cool to see people walking around in public and at games with his jersey on.

Mayor Bee is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-03-2013, 08:09 PM
  #57
Killion
Global Moderator
 
Killion's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Casablanca
Country: Morocco
Posts: 26,159
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by BadgerBruce View Post
At one time, jersey number was indicative of a player's relative security and seniority on the team. The higher the number, the less secure one's roster spot. Richard (15), Howe (17) and Hull (16) all started their NHL careers sporting numbers that screamed "rookie." This was normal, and a jersey number change to something lower was good news for the newbie but obviously bad news for an older vet, who in nearly all cases left the club.
Ya, there was a certain "rote" or code as you've wonderfully illustrated attached to numbers. It did vary slightly from organization to organization, but generally speaking it was standard that a rookie regardless of talent and even if his previous Minor League or Jr number was available, he'd have no choice in the matter & wear whatever the Coach/GM assigned to him. Was like a Power Trip. "You want your usual number? Prove yourself". There was in fact in Toronto Im sure no little amount of Malice in Punch Imlach giving Frank Mahovlich the highest number he possibly could with #27. A number that high for a veteran & one who clearly was beyond quixotic screamed "Flake Job". Imlach Im sure getting a real kick out of that little stunt. Fortunately, times were changing, but still, rather mean spirited to say the least. Twisting the knife. I had old school Coaches like that back in the day. Just plain mean bordering on viscous.

Killion is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
09-04-2013, 12:59 PM
  #58
Roman Reigns
Registered User
 
Roman Reigns's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Country: United States
Posts: 5,858
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Oilersfan2487 View Post
I would like to see Chris Chelios' number retired, either in Chicago (where I think it should start) or Detroit, red kelly to fix that wrong, Detroit, guy lapointe in Montreal ( 2 of the big three were retired, he should be as well), toe blake should be added ...either his hat as a coach, or his number as a player, I am ok either way....kevin lowe! 6 Stanley cups says retire the jersey, 5 with the same team, I think it should be retired, joey mullen in Calgary, al McInnis in Calgary, dominic hasek in buffalo, don marcotte in boston, Bernie nicholls in la, steve larmer in Chicago, mark howe in philly, claude Lemieux in either new jersey or Colorado, bobby carpenter washington
Already is

Roman Reigns is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-07-2013, 01:11 AM
  #59
hawkman
.
 
hawkman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 5,706
vCash: 500
Bure shouldn't have his number retired, because...















it already is!

Quote:
The Canucks will retire Pavel Bure's No. 10 when Vancouver hosts the Toronto Maple Leafs on Nov. 2 at Rogers Arena. The team announced Friday it will retire its fourth number in franchise history. Bure was a member of the Canucks from 1991-98 and had 478 points (254 goals, 224 assists) in 428 games with the team. He was inducted into the Hockey Hall of Fame last year. Bure also played for the Florida Panthers and New York Rangers. The other Canucks' numbers retired are Stan Smyl's No. 12, Trevor Linden's No. 16 and Markus Naslund's No. 19.
http://sports.yahoo.com/news/canucks...2963--nhl.html

__________________
hawkman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-07-2013, 08:31 AM
  #60
aemoreira1981
Registered User
 
aemoreira1981's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: New York City
Country: United States
Posts: 5,122
vCash: 500
Going around the league, but not considering the Leafs who have not retired a number in decades as a matter of team policy:

Capitals: Peter Bondra (12), the major scorer for the Capitals in the 1990s, and a 5-time All-Star with the team, and Calle Johansson (6)...over 900 games played by each (Johansson's 983 NHL games are the record for games played in a DC uniform).

Bruins: Wayne Cashman (12), over 1,000 games played with the Bruins

Sabres: Dave Andreychuk (25)...played the first 830+ games of his career with them.

Canucks: Wayne Maki (11 - number out of circulation)...Messier should never have had an exception made for him on this.

Flames: Al MacInnis (2) - he was honored by the team, but 9 and 30 are in the rafters of the Scotiabank Saddledome.

Ducks: Paul Kariya (9) - although I wouldn't be surprised if the Ducks want Selanne's number to be retired first.

Stars: Craig Hartsburg (4) - only played 570 NHL games, but as a defenseman, scored 413 points, and Brian Bellows (23) - extremely steady scorer in his 10 seasons (totaling 753 games) in Minnesota, 3-time All-Star with the North Stars, and 1990 All Star 2nd Team.

Red Wings: Sergei Fedorov (91) - yes he left on bad terms, but in Detroit, he was a 6-time All-Star, a 3-time Selke Trophy winner, and was on the 1994 All Star 1st Team.


Last edited by aemoreira1981: 09-07-2013 at 08:39 AM.
aemoreira1981 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-07-2013, 09:16 AM
  #61
livewell68
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 7,834
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by aemoreira1981 View Post
Going around the league, but not considering the Leafs who have not retired a number in decades as a matter of team policy:

Capitals: Peter Bondra (12), the major scorer for the Capitals in the 1990s, and a 5-time All-Star with the team, and Calle Johansson (6)...over 900 games played by each (Johansson's 983 NHL games are the record for games played in a DC uniform).

Bruins: Wayne Cashman (12), over 1,000 games played with the Bruins

Sabres: Dave Andreychuk (25)...played the first 830+ games of his career with them.

Canucks: Wayne Maki (11 - number out of circulation)...Messier should never have had an exception made for him on this.

Flames: Al MacInnis (2) - he was honored by the team, but 9 and 30 are in the rafters of the Scotiabank Saddledome.

Ducks: Paul Kariya (9) - although I wouldn't be surprised if the Ducks want Selanne's number to be retired first.

Stars: Craig Hartsburg (4) - only played 570 NHL games, but as a defenseman, scored 413 points, and Brian Bellows (23) - extremely steady scorer in his 10 seasons (totaling 753 games) in Minnesota, 3-time All-Star with the North Stars, and 1990 All Star 2nd Team.

Red Wings: Sergei Fedorov (91) - yes he left on bad terms, but in Detroit, he was a 6-time All-Star, a 3-time Selke Trophy winner, and was on the 1994 All Star 1st Team.
For all his abilities, believe it or not, Fedorov only ever won 2 Selke awards.

livewell68 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-07-2013, 07:48 PM
  #62
Preisst
Party On!!
 
Preisst's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Western Canada
Country: Canada
Posts: 2,670
vCash: 500
No one. Don't believe in retiring #s. That said because #6 is already retired due to the Bailey injury, and because Bailey actually requested that the Leafs let Ron Ellis wear the # cuz of how awesome Ellis was, I would like to see Ellis be honoured by the Leafs.

The Leafs do it the right way with the honouring of players and not the nonsensical retiring of a #. Will Montreal have any #s left in a few years?

Preisst is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-07-2013, 08:03 PM
  #63
Preisst
Party On!!
 
Preisst's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Western Canada
Country: Canada
Posts: 2,670
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by cynicism View Post
The problem is that the original Ottawa Senators are a completely different franchise from the current one. The original Sens moved to St. Louis in 1934 and folded shortly thereafter. What you're proposing is akin to the Saskatchewan Rough Riders wanting to retire jersey numbers from guys playing on the Ottawa Rough Riders.
Actually its Roughriders. (sorry but I'm a Rider fan so had to mention this abomination!!)

Preisst is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-08-2013, 06:47 PM
  #64
Tawnos
A guy with a bass
 
Tawnos's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Charlotte, NC
Country: United States
Posts: 14,210
vCash: 500
The Rangers have done an awful job paying tribute to their past. They made up for some of it by retiring Howell, Bathgate a few years back, but some of the early players numbers are lacking. Yes, #7 Rod Gilbert is retired, but so should #7 for Frank Boucher. #5 for Bill Cook should also be up. Also #12 for Bryan Hextall.

Tawnos is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
09-08-2013, 07:27 PM
  #65
Killion
Global Moderator
 
Killion's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Casablanca
Country: Morocco
Posts: 26,159
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tawnos View Post
The Rangers have done an awful job paying tribute to their past...
Buddy O'Connor
Camille Henry
Ott Heller
Bun Cook
Babe Pratt
Lou Fontinato
Bill Gadsby
Gump Worsley
Vic Hadfield
Phil Goyette
Ed Giacomin
Brad Park
Rod Seiling
Ron Greschner
Brian Leetch
Mark Messier
Mike Richter
John Vanbiesbrouck

several others, but off the top of my head...

Killion is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
09-08-2013, 09:12 PM
  #66
Tawnos
A guy with a bass
 
Tawnos's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Charlotte, NC
Country: United States
Posts: 14,210
vCash: 500
.. what is that list even of? Players who had meaningful Rangers careers?

Tawnos is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
09-08-2013, 09:17 PM
  #67
Killion
Global Moderator
 
Killion's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Casablanca
Country: Morocco
Posts: 26,159
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tawnos View Post
.. what is that list even of? Players who had meaningful Rangers careers?
Ya. Some who should have their numbers honored at minimum.

Killion is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
09-08-2013, 09:31 PM
  #68
Mayor Bee
\/me_____you\/
 
Mayor Bee's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 16,267
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Killion View Post
Buddy O'Connor
Camille Henry
Ott Heller
Bun Cook
Babe Pratt
Lou Fontinato
Bill Gadsby
Gump Worsley
Vic Hadfield
Phil Goyette
Ed Giacomin
Brad Park
Rod Seiling
Ron Greschner
Brian Leetch
Mark Messier
Mike Richter
John Vanbiesbrouck

several others, but off the top of my head...
Lou Fontinato, but no Cecil Dillon?

Mayor Bee is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-08-2013, 10:27 PM
  #69
Killion
Global Moderator
 
Killion's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Casablanca
Country: Morocco
Posts: 26,159
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mayor Bee View Post
Lou Fontinato, but no Cecil Dillon?
Ya, Ceece as well. Born in Toledo, your knick of the Woods MB. Moved to Thornbury up near Collingwood Ontario at the age of 6. Ranks 33rd on the Rangers All Time Top 100 List.

.... oh, and the DeMarco's. Ab Sr & Jr. Sr played (Center) for the Rangers in the 40's, Jr born in Cleveland when Sr was playing there in the AHL and played for New York (Defenceman) for a few seasons starting in 1969/70. Dont believe either distinguished themselves enough to have their numbers honored or retired but still. Nice Ohio connection.


Last edited by Killion: 09-08-2013 at 10:51 PM.
Killion is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
09-08-2013, 11:51 PM
  #70
Tawnos
A guy with a bass
 
Tawnos's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Charlotte, NC
Country: United States
Posts: 14,210
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Killion View Post
Ya. Some who should have their numbers honored at minimum.
Well, 4 of those guys have their numbers retired. And, while I agree that many of them should be honored, I think retiring is reserved for the truly outstanding and important. But very few hockey players in franchise history have meant more than Boucher, Cook (both, but Bill was the special one) and Hextall Sr. In reality, they mean more than even Messier or Graves. They just have the unfortunate state of having been dead at least 30 years... and also not having broken a long Cup drought. Very easy to ignore.


Last edited by Tawnos: 09-08-2013 at 11:59 PM.
Tawnos is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
09-09-2013, 04:09 PM
  #71
Preisst
Party On!!
 
Preisst's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Western Canada
Country: Canada
Posts: 2,670
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Killion View Post
Buddy O'Connor
Camille Henry
Ott Heller
Bun Cook
Babe Pratt
Lou Fontinato
Bill Gadsby
Gump Worsley
Vic Hadfield
Phil Goyette
Ed Giacomin
Brad Park
Rod Seiling
Ron Greschner
Brian Leetch
Mark Messier
Mike Richter
John Vanbiesbrouck

several others, but off the top of my head...
To me this is just verification of why player #s should not be retired. I have no problem with honouring players because the players are the ones who did the accomplishment. This list just shows the thought of "where do you stop?"

I actually think it's a pretty selfish thing to do.

Preisst is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 02:47 PM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2015, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2015 All Rights Reserved.