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Good/Bad GMs on big $ teams

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Old
09-09-2013, 09:07 PM
  #26
sansabri
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Originally Posted by Cyris View Post
His only season was successful. Bernier, Bolland and Clarkson haven't played a single game for the Leafs its way to early to call him one of the worst GM's in the game based on adding those players.
i put him in the 'bad' category because he went ahead and spent cap space he didn't have on UFAs.

the Leafs are stuck with Liles' contract and still have yet to sign Kadri and Franson. and yes, i'm aware Kadri and the Leafs are close to a deal, but that's really not the way you want to go about managing a team.

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09-09-2013, 09:10 PM
  #27
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Gillis?

Granted the success of the team, as well as a few glaring deficiencies in our roster, show he's not perfect, but the Canucks have gotten some good trades (some remain to be seen), and some very shrewd, below market signings, and some very, very good resignings.

Not perfect, but the financial stress that he's alleviated for the Canucks makes Gillis a "good" candidate in my mind.

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Old
09-09-2013, 09:23 PM
  #28
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For as much as I like to rail about his failures in paying too much (in trade assets or in cap/term) for veteren role-players, I must admit that Doug Wilson has been a very effective GM for the Sharks. He has been excellent in high value trades, bringing in Thornton, Boyle and Burns. I did not like the Cheechoo + Milan Michalek trade for Heatley, but Heatley was good for us when he was here.

Wilson has also been very good at resignings. Thornton/Marleau took slight home town discounts at the time. In the last off-season, before this one, the best thing DW did was resign Burns and Vlasic to good cap friendly extensions. This off season, he did the same with Pavelski and Couture.

Before this last CBA, DW went on record opposing the cap circumventing decade + deals, and avoided giving any of those out. He could improve on his trading away picks for rentals or constantly spending 2nd rounders to move up two spots in the first, but if I had to give him a grade it would be a B+. Sharks have done well under his thumb.

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09-09-2013, 09:24 PM
  #29
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Originally Posted by sansabri View Post
i put him in the 'bad' category because he went ahead and spent cap space he didn't have on UFAs.

the Leafs are stuck with Liles' contract and still have yet to sign Kadri and Franson. and yes, i'm aware Kadri and the Leafs are close to a deal, but that's really not the way you want to go about managing a team.
I'm not even trying to say his moves have been good as a whole I have some question about them myself but the season hasn't started yet we really dont know what his finished product will look like.

It doesn't look like we will have too much trouble getting Kadri signed with our available cap space if Franson gets moved for futures to make that happen so be it, I'm not as high on him as many of my fellow Leaf fans. Good young player but not a core pice at all.

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09-09-2013, 09:35 PM
  #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sansabri View Post
Bad GMs: Nonis ( so far ), Lowe

Good: Chiarelli, Bergevin ( so far )

in between: Holmgren, Sather
That's not fair. It's hard for anyone to be a good GM when they're not actually a GM

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09-09-2013, 09:39 PM
  #31
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That's not fair. It's hard for anyone to be a good GM when they're not actually a GM
haha. dammit, that's a good point. i just associate him as being the 'voice' of the Oilers.

i could replace him with Gillis since Tambellini is gone.

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09-09-2013, 09:56 PM
  #32
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Originally Posted by sansabri View Post
haha. dammit, that's a good point. i just associate him as being the 'voice' of the Oilers.

i could replace him with Gillis since Tambellini is gone.
How would Sather and Holmgren get a "maybe" and Gillis gets labelled as "bad"? Same results, but the Canucks haven't had to take a year off to rebuild.

Bergevin and Nonis would need some more time before I make up my minds either way, and Edmonton's Lowe/Mactavish situation gets some time too.

Chiarelli, Holland and Shero are the "best", with Stan Bowman a half step below them (due to having a "pending/potential" mess he will sort out and navigating the sorta mess Tallon left cap wise).

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09-09-2013, 10:00 PM
  #33
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Someone help me out ... how much money do Jeff Finger, David Clarkson, Brett Lebda and John-Michael Liles have in their Wells Fargo accounts?
That's irrelevant. Those 4 players were acquired by 3 different GMs. The Lebda deal alone turned into Lombardi and Franson.

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Old
09-09-2013, 10:14 PM
  #34
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Originally Posted by Cogburn View Post
How would Sather and Holmgren get a "maybe" and Gillis gets labelled as "bad"? Same results, but the Canucks haven't had to take a year off to rebuild.

Bergevin and Nonis would need some more time before I make up my minds either way, and Edmonton's Lowe/Mactavish situation gets some time too.

Chiarelli, Holland and Shero are the "best", with Stan Bowman a half step below them (due to having a "pending/potential" mess he will sort out and navigating the sorta mess Tallon left cap wise).
because Sather is pretty savvy when it comes to trades. you gotta give him that.

Holmgren is crazy, but he's built some very solid teams. almost had himself a ring.

i'd put Nonis in the 'bad' for the Luongo/Schneider fiasco. that thing lasted over 2 years.

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09-09-2013, 10:27 PM
  #35
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Originally Posted by sansabri View Post
because Sather is pretty savvy when it comes to trades. you gotta give him that.

Holmgren is crazy, but he's built some very solid teams. almost had himself a ring.

i'd put Nonis in the 'bad' for the Luongo/Schneider fiasco. that thing lasted over 2 years.
Much in the same way, focusing on one element for Sather or Holmgren (trades versus signings in New York, or Holmgren "almost" getting a ring versus trading off his two best players for a mini rebuild, or the Bryz fiasco, or any other negative element) as positives versus the Schneider/Luongo fiasco...or the Hodgson trade (remains to be proven yet), or Booth, or Ballard, or what ever negative...

If Homer gets a pass based on "almost" getting a ring, why not Gillis? If not for injuries, we could have/would have/should have and the team still got to game 7. Boston beat us, the Blackhawks beat the Flyers, for every ying, there's a yang. I've said I'd want Gillis in the "good" pile on different arguments, but if Holmgren and Sather, with the randomness of their successes and failures, I'd argue Gillis is at least as "good" as those two.

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09-09-2013, 10:46 PM
  #36
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Originally Posted by Cogburn View Post
Much in the same way, focusing on one element for Sather or Holmgren (trades versus signings in New York, or Holmgren "almost" getting a ring versus trading off his two best players for a mini rebuild, or the Bryz fiasco, or any other negative element) as positives versus the Schneider/Luongo fiasco...or the Hodgson trade (remains to be proven yet), or Booth, or Ballard, or what ever negative...

If Homer gets a pass based on "almost" getting a ring, why not Gillis? If not for injuries, we could have/would have/should have and the team still got to game 7. Boston beat us, the Blackhawks beat the Flyers, for every ying, there's a yang. I've said I'd want Gillis in the "good" pile on different arguments, but if Holmgren and Sather, with the randomness of their successes and failures, I'd argue Gillis is at least as "good" as those two.
that's why i put Homer 'in between.' for all the bad things he's done, he's done a lot of good things too. maybe i'm wrong, but Homer doesn't waste his time with things he has a problem with. he didn't like how Richards and Carter acted off the ice - he dealt with them. Bryz was a bust? he dealt with it. he still got great value out of Richards and Carter... if i go by memory: B. Schenn, Voracek, Simmonds, Couturier...

Gillis' antics cost them Schneider because he wasn't satisfied ( for two years ) with what other teams were offering him for Luongo. Horvat looks good and all, but that feels like peanuts for what Schneider can do.

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Old
09-09-2013, 10:53 PM
  #37
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Originally Posted by sansabri View Post
that's why i put Homer 'in between.' for all the bad things he's done, he's done a lot of good things too. maybe i'm wrong, but Homer doesn't waste his time with things he has a problem with. he didn't like how Richards and Carter acted off the ice - he dealt with them. Bryz was a bust? he dealt with it. he still got great value out of Richards and Carter... if i go by memory: B. Schenn, Voracek, Simmonds, Couturier...

Gillis' antics cost them Schneider because he wasn't satisfied ( for two years ) with what other teams were offering him for Luongo. Horvat looks good and all, but that feels like peanuts for what Schneider can do.
But that's what I'm getting at, Holmgren has had good and bad. So has Gillis. Not getting full value isn't the only red in his ledger, but what about the Ehrhoff trade? What about signing Garrison and Hamhuis way below market value as UFAs? What about keeping the core of our team (Kesler, Burrows, Bieksa, the Sedins, Edler, Schneider/Luongo) and even peripheral players (Higgins, Hansen) on this team with very shrewd signings? What about the overall success of the team? What about two consecutive President's Tropheys? Or individual successes our team have never received?

Again, playoff success has been about equal (one finals appearance a piece), and we haven't had to tank under Gillis like the Flyers have had to do one season, and have had more regular season success if that's the measurement.

As for Sather, if his trades get him out from his bad signings, wouldn't Gillis' great signings get him out of allegedly bad trades (all of which save the Ballard trade haven't unfolded IMO)?

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09-09-2013, 10:53 PM
  #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sansabri View Post
Bad GMs: Nonis ( so far ), Lowe

Good: Chiarelli, Bergevin ( so far )

in between: Holmgren, Sather


Holland should be near or at the top of the good list. He'll have another hill to climb in a few years though.

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Old
09-09-2013, 11:11 PM
  #39
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Originally Posted by Cogburn View Post
But that's what I'm getting at, Holmgren has had good and bad. So has Gillis. Not getting full value isn't the only red in his ledger, but what about the Ehrhoff trade? What about signing Garrison and Hamhuis way below market value as UFAs? What about keeping the core of our team (Kesler, Burrows, Bieksa, the Sedins, Edler, Schneider/Luongo) and even peripheral players (Higgins, Hansen) on this team with very shrewd signings? What about the overall success of the team? What about two consecutive President's Tropheys? Or individual successes our team have never received?

Again, playoff success has been about equal (one finals appearance a piece), and we haven't had to tank under Gillis like the Flyers have had to do one season, and have had more regular season success if that's the measurement.

As for Sather, if his trades get him out from his bad signings, wouldn't Gillis' great signings get him out of allegedly bad trades (all of which save the Ballard trade haven't unfolded IMO)?
i agree with a lot of the things you're saying, but i simply believe that those two years of Gillis standing pat on the value he wanted for Luongo killed the teams' morale.

he's clearly done a lot of good things, but he created a media monster over the goalie situation and you could tell it messed with the players' heads. the Canucks are/were built to go deep into the playoffs and they've only managed to win one playoff game since they lost Game 7.

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09-09-2013, 11:14 PM
  #40
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i think murray will prove to be a better "low payroll" GM. He just seems to make stupid UFA decisions when he has money to spend, like fedorov in anaheim and kovalev in ottawa.

hmm... maybe he should just stop signing over-the-hill russians.

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09-09-2013, 11:24 PM
  #41
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Homer is terrible. I feel like for every decision he just says, "screw it I'll worry about the repercussions later." Their goalie situation is year is the epitome of a homer move.

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09-09-2013, 11:34 PM
  #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sansabri View Post
haha. dammit, that's a good point. i just associate him as being the 'voice' of the Oilers.

i could replace him with Gillis since Tambellini is gone.
Yeah Gillis is horrible.

Took over a team that missed the playoffs two of the previous three years and has since taken them to five Dvisional titles and a seventh game of the SCF.

The anti Canuck sentiment is stupid and leads to stupid posts.

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09-09-2013, 11:37 PM
  #43
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Originally Posted by tucker3434 View Post
Homer is terrible. I feel like for every decision he just says, "screw it I'll worry about the repercussions later." Their goalie situation is year is the epitome of a homer move.
What's wrong with their goalie situation?

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09-09-2013, 11:40 PM
  #44
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Yeah Gillis is horrible.

Took over a team that missed the playoffs two of the previous three years and has since taken them to five Dvisional titles and a seventh game of the SCF.

The anti Canuck sentiment is stupid and leads to stupid posts.
Did you miss the part what I pleaded for a friendly flame free thread?

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09-09-2013, 11:55 PM
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Did you miss the part what I pleaded for a friendly flame free thread?
Did you miss the post I quoted?

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09-09-2013, 11:58 PM
  #46
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What's wrong with their goalie situation?
Do you think Mason or Emery are good enough to win a cup? Homer spent a bunch of money on Streit and Lecavalier to win now and forgot that he needed goalies too.

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09-10-2013, 12:07 AM
  #47
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i agree with a lot of the things you're saying, but i simply believe that those two years of Gillis standing pat on the value he wanted for Luongo killed the teams' morale.

he's clearly done a lot of good things, but he created a media monster over the goalie situation and you could tell it messed with the players' heads. the Canucks are/were built to go deep into the playoffs and they've only managed to win one playoff game since they lost Game 7.
Where did the team's morale die? Everyone seemed onboard with the choice to wait, and both Schneider and Luongo were pillars of the community and provided valuable leadership. Yeah, morales probably a little lower with the Schneider move, but it's due to an important part of our team being moved, not due to having both play for the Canucks.

Darth Milbury wanted us to focus on how they've navigated the cap restrictions with trades, signings and these sorts of deals. Our media here has created a media monster because there was so little to report on during the lock out and post season (both prior to the lock out and the aftermath). That's not the way the team, or most of the fan base, are feeling post-Schneider.

We have a hang over, but even that one win has been better then other teams who have lacked success after a cup final appearance (win or loss). It's hardly unique, and frankly, with both teams that eliminated us early, I have no problem saying they simply wanted it more. LA was on fire, and San Jose had our number after we eliminated them in the conference finals the year of our cup run. San Jose wanted revenge for that slight, and we just viewed another opponent. That is coaching more then strictly management, and that was dealt with. Even if it is a temporary point until we see Tortorella's team in action, that's still a point on the black side of the ledger for Gillis.

Quote:
Originally Posted by danishh View Post
i think murray will prove to be a better "low payroll" GM. He just seems to make stupid UFA decisions when he has money to spend, like fedorov in anaheim and kovalev in ottawa.

hmm... maybe he should just stop signing over-the-hill russians.
He and Poile are nutty with dealing with a lower cap situation. I'd go as far as to say Maloney too all things considered. But different extremes.

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09-10-2013, 12:14 AM
  #48
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Do you think Mason or Emery are good enough to win a cup? Homer spent a bunch of money on Streit and Lecavalier to win now and forgot that he needed goalies too.
In defence of the Flyers, their team made the cup finals with Leighton and Nittimaki. Adequate goaltending does the trick with their play/team composition. Bryzgalov isn't a bad goalie, but a strong goalie is exposed in their system, and using cap space elsewhere seems to be more beneficial.

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09-10-2013, 12:19 AM
  #49
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His only season was successful. Bernier, Bolland and Clarkson haven't played a single game for the Leafs its way to early to call him one of the worst GM's in the game based on adding those players.
didnt you see the (so far) part?

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09-10-2013, 01:21 AM
  #50
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The fact that Lamoriello has been left out by everybody tells a lot...
Anyway, I think hockey is the ultimate team sport where building a team has a lot more to do with assembling the right elements than signing up expensive stars. If you have the right philosophy and scouting, you'll be fine (Detroit, NJ) where if you try to patch up a team every year with money (Toronto, Rangers), you'll never amount to anything. I'm a Habs fan and we haven't had a good GM since Pollock, whether the money was available or not. Too early to tell about Bergevin, though I'm not too optimistic.

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