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Good/Bad GMs on big $ teams

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Old
09-10-2013, 01:55 AM
  #51
sansabri
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BobbyShehan View Post
The fact that Lamoriello has been left out by everybody tells a lot...
Anyway, I think hockey is the ultimate team sport where building a team has a lot more to do with assembling the right elements than signing up expensive stars. If you have the right philosophy and scouting, you'll be fine (Detroit, NJ) where if you try to patch up a team every year with money (Toronto, Rangers), you'll never amount to anything. I'm a Habs fan and we haven't had a good GM since Pollock, whether the money was available or not. Too early to tell about Bergevin, though I'm not too optimistic.
the OP asked about the filthy rich teams.

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Old
09-10-2013, 01:58 AM
  #52
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Plenty of homerism here being a Coyotes fan, but what Don Maloney has managed to accomplish on such a limited budget is staggering to me.

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Old
09-10-2013, 03:57 AM
  #53
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based off this offseason I think the teams that had good/bad off seasons are

GOOD

Toronto - Key losses Macarthur, Frattin, Komarov, Scrivens Grabovoski

Key additions Bolland Clarkson, Bernier, Raymond (possibly)

I really lik what Nonis has, done I feel like while the losses of Komarov, and Grabovoski do sting I think Bolland is a better fit then Grabovoski for the style this team plays and while I liked Komarov, he was a black hole on offense. Mason Raymond if signed, and I expect him to be because we have a hole at 3rd line LW should be a significant up on Komarov, offensively.

OTTAWA

key losses Alfie

Key additions Macarthur, Bobby Ryan

Boy this sucks for me to write because I HATE the Sens, I cheer every bad thing that happens to that team I really do. That said I think it's ridiculous that Sens fans got upset over losing Alfie when they managed to replace him with Bobby Ryan who at this point is a MASSIVE upgrade to the team. Basically what you did was trade in the dog from old Yeller for the dog from Air Bud.

Throw in Macarthur, and Ottawa has done very well.

Detorit

Key losses Dan Cleary

Key additions Alfie , Weiss

not really much to say here they lose a bottom 6 guy and gain 2 top 6 guys it's that simple.

BOSTON

Key losses Seguin, Peverly

Key additions Eriksson, Iginla

I love what boston did I really do. Seguin, is VERY good but I think overall atleast this year their forwards are better with both Eriksson, and Iginla than with Seguin, long term that probably changes but for nexxt season boston is better.

BAD

FLYERS Key additions Lecaviler, Streit, Emery, Cleary Gill (possibly)

Key losses Briere, Bryzgalov

It's not that Vinny isn't better than Briere, he probably is or that Emery, isn't better than Bryzgalov he almost certainly is.

but Vinny is 33 and got a 5 year deal, Streit, is 35,and got a 4 year deal, Cleary 34 and got a 3 year deal. Not only that but the GM is handing out NTC and NMC worse than Oprah Winfrey " YOU GET A NTC and YOU GET A NTC and YOU GET A NTC."

The Flyers have a goaltending tandem of Steve Mason and Ray Emery and I don't think that gets it done.

Also can ANYBODY explain to me why they felt the need to give Dan Cleary 3 years at 2.75 per with a NTC when up until what? 36 hours ago? Mason Raymond who is MUCH, faster, MUCH younger and will come at a FRACTION of the price of the price Cleary did, was sitting waiting for an invite to camp but Cleary gets a long term deal?

can ANYBODY explain that to me?

Habs.

Key additions briere,

Key losses Ryder

Yes habs fans you got better but when I look at what Toronto, Boston, Ottawa and Detorit did I don't think it's nearly enough I think all 4 teams have passed you in terms of overall depth and right now I see you guys as fighting for a wild card spot if that.

NJ Key additions Cory Schneider, Ryan Clowe, Ryder

Key losses Clarkson, Kovalchuk

I wanted to put you guys in the good list I really did because I LOVE the Cory Schneider trade and the Ryder signing but I can't. I think NJ gave out the worst contract of the summer when they signed Clowe. Add the loss of your leading goal scorer, and then your best player turning into cartmen and saying "Screw you guys i'm going home!" it's been rough.

That's my list for this off season.

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Old
09-10-2013, 05:30 AM
  #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LEAFANFORLIFE23 View Post
based off this offseason I think the teams that had good/bad off seasons are

GOOD

Toronto - Key losses Macarthur, Frattin, Komarov, Scrivens Grabovoski

Key additions Bolland Clarkson, Bernier, Raymond (possibly)

I really lik what Nonis has, done I feel like while the losses of Komarov, and Grabovoski do sting I think Bolland is a better fit then Grabovoski for the style this team plays and while I liked Komarov, he was a black hole on offense. Mason Raymond if signed, and I expect him to be because we have a hole at 3rd line LW should be a significant up on Komarov, offensively.

OTTAWA

key losses Alfie, Silfverberg, Noesen, (1st)

Key additions Macarthur, Bobby Ryan

Boy this sucks for me to write because I HATE the Sens, I cheer every bad thing that happens to that team I really do. That said I think it's ridiculous that Sens fans got upset over losing Alfie when they managed to replace him with Bobby Ryan who at this point is a MASSIVE upgrade to the team. Basically what you did was trade in the dog from old Yeller for the dog from Air Bud.

Throw in Macarthur, and Ottawa has done very well.

Detorit

Key losses Dan Cleary

Key additions Alfie , Weiss

not really much to say here they lose a bottom 6 guy and gain 2 top 6 guys it's that simple.

BOSTON

Key losses Seguin, Peverly

Key additions Eriksson, Iginla

I love what boston did I really do. Seguin, is VERY good but I think overall atleast this year their forwards are better with both Eriksson, and Iginla than with Seguin, long term that probably changes but for nexxt season boston is better.

BAD

FLYERS Key additions Lecaviler, Streit, Emery, Cleary Gill (possibly)

Key losses Briere, Bryzgalov

It's not that Vinny isn't better than Briere, he probably is or that Emery, isn't better than Bryzgalov he almost certainly is.

but Vinny is 33 and got a 5 year deal, Streit, is 35,and got a 4 year deal, Cleary 34 and got a 3 year deal. Not only that but the GM is handing out NTC and NMC worse than Oprah Winfrey " YOU GET A NTC and YOU GET A NTC and YOU GET A NTC."

The Flyers have a goaltending tandem of Steve Mason and Ray Emery and I don't think that gets it done.

Also can ANYBODY explain to me why they felt the need to give Dan Cleary 3 years at 2.75 per with a NTC when up until what? 36 hours ago? Mason Raymond who is MUCH, faster, MUCH younger and will come at a FRACTION of the price of the price Cleary did, was sitting waiting for an invite to camp but Cleary gets a long term deal?

can ANYBODY explain that to me?

Habs.

Key additions briere,

Key losses Ryder

Yes habs fans you got better but when I look at what Toronto, Boston, Ottawa and Detorit did I don't think it's nearly enough I think all 4 teams have passed you in terms of overall depth and right now I see you guys as fighting for a wild card spot if that.

NJ Key additions Cory Schneider, Ryan Clowe, Ryder

Key losses Clarkson, Kovalchuk

I wanted to put you guys in the good list I really did because I LOVE the Cory Schneider trade and the Ryder signing but I can't. I think NJ gave out the worst contract of the summer when they signed Clowe. Add the loss of your leading goal scorer, and then your best player turning into cartmen and saying "Screw you guys i'm going home!" it's been rough.

That's my list for this off season.
You forgot to add the bolded

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Old
09-10-2013, 05:31 AM
  #55
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Holmgren has had this Jekyll and Hyde thing going on lately.

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Old
09-10-2013, 05:32 AM
  #56
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Originally Posted by LEAFANFORLIFE23 View Post
Not only that but the GM is handing out NTC and NMC worse than Oprah Winfrey " YOU GET A NTC and YOU GET A NTC and YOU GET A NTC."
A+

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Old
09-10-2013, 06:30 AM
  #57
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I think Maloney could have made an argument for the best... before Smith deal.

Yeah he hasn't played one play of that deal and if he plays like in 11-12 he is easily worth that.. but still.

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Old
09-10-2013, 06:45 AM
  #58
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Good- Holland
Bad- Holmgren

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Old
09-10-2013, 07:16 AM
  #59
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worst of all time

has to be mike milbury. this clown gave away more talent than he kept. traded luongo for basically de pietro, traded chara for who knows what, countless other give aways. holmgren and sather are complete idiots.......

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09-10-2013, 07:26 AM
  #60
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I'd add Fletcher to the good tier as well. Remember, Minnesota doesn't have an internal cap.

Additions:

Parise
Suter
Cooke
Mitchell
Konopka
Blom
(Possibly Steckel)

Trades:

Setoguchi for 2nd. Might seem a bit cheap, but Seto underperformed in MN, he was notoriously streaky and we have a surplus of top 6 wingers.

Clutterbuck + 3rd for Niederreiter. A medium risk, high reward -move. Clutterbuck would've been a bit too expensive, and the Cooke acquisition made him expendable. Niederreiter underperformed in NYI and he wasn't happy there, but he's still got tons of potential and he's a big body in top 6, exactly what we need.

Losses:

Cullen (too expensive to retain, getting old)
Latendresse (wanted to play near his family in Ottawa)

Overall, I think Fletcher has done a great job, and this is only covering last year or so.

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Old
09-10-2013, 07:31 AM
  #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sansabri View Post
Bad GMs: Nonis ( so far ), Lowe

Good: Chiarelli, Bergevin ( so far )

in between: Holmgren, Sather
This seems a little confusing as he hasn't done anything really bad or really good yet. He's just tinkered with what Burke has in place.
IMO, we'll see soon. There's a good chance all this tight to the cap and hold out stuff is bully tactics to get these guys signed to bridge deals below market value. If so, I think he ends up closer to the good side of the GM spectrum without a doubt.
That being said, if he ends up actually screwing things up and a refusal to play happens, sure add him to the naughty list.
Currently, your assessment is premature.

And there's also the chance the Bernier trade turns out amazing.


Last edited by Tank Commander: 09-10-2013 at 08:02 AM.
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Old
09-10-2013, 07:40 AM
  #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BobbyShehan View Post
The fact that Lamoriello has been left out by everybody tells a lot...
Anyway, I think hockey is the ultimate team sport where building a team has a lot more to do with assembling the right elements than signing up expensive stars. If you have the right philosophy and scouting, you'll be fine (Detroit, NJ) where if you try to patch up a team every year with money (Toronto, Rangers), you'll never amount to anything. I'm a Habs fan and we haven't had a good GM since Pollock, whether the money was available or not. Too early to tell about Bergevin, though I'm not too optimistic.
Ironic, considering the money Lou just gave out to Clowe, Ryder and Jagr, and his lack of success in the draft in recent years.

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Old
09-10-2013, 08:19 AM
  #63
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Chiarelli is probably the best of the big money teams. Makes trades that sometimes don't work out but overall brings in the right guys and has lots of depth.
I don't really count Stan Bowman as he was handed a situation that pretty much any GM could do well with. I'd also add Holland for Detroit as he doesn't hand out a lot of bad contracts.
Boawman was handed a bunch of players that were thrown top dollar because they did not get QOs in on time. Bowman has done a stellar job evaluating talent and keeping the core together. Can you imagine Brian Burke, Feaster, etc handling Chicago? Kane would be gone for Stajan, and other crap pieces (ala Phaneuf).

All in all, Bowman has done great keeping this deep team together. Not the best, but not bad. Better than a Mike Milbury....

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Old
09-10-2013, 10:16 AM
  #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BobbyShehan View Post
The fact that Lamoriello has been left out by everybody tells a lot...
Anyway, I think hockey is the ultimate team sport where building a team has a lot more to do with assembling the right elements than signing up expensive stars. If you have the right philosophy and scouting, you'll be fine (Detroit, NJ) where if you try to patch up a team every year with money (Toronto, Rangers), you'll never amount to anything. I'm a Habs fan and we haven't had a good GM since Pollock, whether the money was available or not. Too early to tell about Bergevin, though I'm not too optimistic.
Except that Toronto was actually fairly successful before the cap.

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09-10-2013, 11:14 AM
  #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sansabri View Post
Clarkson will probably be fine the first two seasons, but once his body breaks down, that contract will kill the Leafs.

the Leafs were already one of the toughest and biggest teams last season... they didn't even need Clarkson.
Enforcers and bottom pairing d, clarkson can actually play with our top 6 or at worst top 9

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Old
09-10-2013, 11:59 AM
  #66
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Personally, I don't mind it so much when a thread takes twists and turns. But, I really don't see what Phx and Ott have to do with this discussion.


And, the comment about Milbury really could not be less relevant or more pointless (is there anybody who follows hockey who believes that nutbag was competent?).

What I was want to think about is how teams with a blank checkbook, like the Rangers, Leafs, Flyers are managed.

I don't know that I consider Minn to be a big $ team. But, I agree that an argument could be made.

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09-10-2013, 12:06 PM
  #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tricia McMillan View Post
Plenty of homerism here being a Coyotes fan, but what Don Maloney has managed to accomplish on such a limited budget is staggering to me.
I would argue that Maloney isnt such a good GM, he does know how to hire a good coach though. The reason that they are so good is because he hired Tippett, Tippett knows how to play an effective system.

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09-10-2013, 12:12 PM
  #68
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Good: Holland, Chiarelli, Bowman, Lombardi
Average: Shero, Bergevin, McPhee, Gillis
Below Average: Nonis, Feaster
Terrible: Holmgren

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09-10-2013, 12:14 PM
  #69
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Originally Posted by WTFMAN99 View Post
Enforcers and bottom pairing d, clarkson can actually play with our top 6 or at worst top 9
the point is, it wasn't a 'need' as much as the Leafs needing a no. 1 center or a dman to pair with Phaneuf. instead, Nonis spent $5.25M of cap space on a forward whose career year is 46 pts.

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09-10-2013, 12:18 PM
  #70
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Good: Holland, Chiarelli, Bowman, Lombardi
Average: Shero, Bergevin, McPhee, Gillis
Below Average: Nonis, Feaster
Terrible: Holmgren
great list

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09-10-2013, 12:21 PM
  #71
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In defence of the Flyers, their team made the cup finals with Leighton and Nittimaki. Adequate goaltending does the trick with their play/team composition. Bryzgalov isn't a bad goalie, but a strong goalie is exposed in their system, and using cap space elsewhere seems to be more beneficial.
The team that made the Cup final had that Pronger guy, he's made many goalies look good/adequate.

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09-10-2013, 12:41 PM
  #72
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While I agree that Holmgren make some questionable moves, he also did some that worked out...they are not all bad.
added Jagr
added Matt Read
traded for Leino for nothing
was the first GM to do the "trade for rights of" when he added Timonen and Hartnell in the offseason before they were to become UFA's

as for this offseason, losing Briere and Bryz and adding Vinny, Streit, Emery, Cleary helps them

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09-10-2013, 12:42 PM
  #73
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In defence of the Flyers, their team made the cup finals with Leighton and Nittimaki. Adequate goaltending does the trick with their play/team composition. Bryzgalov isn't a bad goalie, but a strong goalie is exposed in their system, and using cap space elsewhere seems to be more beneficial.
Bryz is a bad goalie. That's why no one has signed him.

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09-10-2013, 01:13 PM
  #74
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I think its an interesting thought that it can be a bit harder to run a team when you are spending to the cap. It shouldnt really be the case but I think its just mainly because too many GM's hand out stupid contracts for UFA players or pay certain players more than what they are worth.

My opinion on Good who spend big ($) amounts on their team:

Pittsburg - I think Shero has done a good job for the most part. Always active with trades, brings in some good players. Dont think hes really signed a lot of brutal contracts (there are some bad ones but for the most part they pay their good players and not average players). However I am not sure trading all your draft picks for rentals is good for your future. (Pittsburg core is fairly young though and they do have quite a bit of defenseman in the system).

Boston - I think Chiralleli is one of the best. He is aggressive but he seems calm/controlled with his decisions. Boston has a solid roster with not a ton of bad contracts. I think they are bit more conservative too and dont give away as many draft picks.

Chicago - I am not sure we have really seen enough of Bowman to know. He inherited an already good team. But at the same time he hasnt really made any bad decisions either which should count for something. For a team thats right up at the cap, Chicago under Bowman seems to be a bit more patient than some of the other teams who spend $, which seemed to pay off for them this year.

Vancouver - I know alot of people seem to rag on Gillis. I am not sure how I totally feel about him but Vancouver has been pretty competitive for a number of years so that should count for something. He seems very good at contracts, not too many bad ones get signed. I dont think he has handled the goaltending situation very well though and I think Vancouver has been running too long with any new personnel really coming up and making an impression. The next year or two I think will really define how he is viewed in the hockey world.

Los Angeles - Lombardi just seems to really not make any poor decisions when it comes to contracts. He also is somewhat aggressive at pulling off trades. They also seem to do a decent job at bringing talent into their system. Their core of players are still fairly young and they now have a lot of experience.

San Jose - Wilson seems like hes always trying to do something to make his team better. San Jose has been competitive for a long time now. And even though they have never won they cup, they are a team thats been bringing in alot of playoff revenue for a very long time. Wilson doesnt seem to give out many bad contracts. The biggest fault I think with him is that he probably has sacrificed too much for the future. Like Vancouver, it will be interesting to see how the Sharks are in a few years time.

Detroit - Holland does a very good job. The team is always competitive and for the most part he is fairly active. I also think he is very patient as well. He doesnt seem to get caught much on bad contracts. That being said, I think he probably could have done more with the team the last couple years but thats being said, sometimes the decisions you dont make, turn out for the best in the long term. Will be interesting to see how Detroit does this year since they spent a little money and will be playing in the east.

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Old
09-10-2013, 01:22 PM
  #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tripod View Post
While I agree that Holmgren make some questionable moves, he also did some that worked out...they are not all bad.
added Jagr
added Matt Read
traded for Leino for nothing
was the first GM to do the "trade for rights of" when he added Timonen and Hartnell in the offseason before they were to become UFA's

as for this offseason, losing Briere and Bryz and adding Vinny, Streit, Emery, Cleary helps them
Holmgren made some mind blowing bad moves, like the Bryz situation but I am still impressed by the haul he got from Mike Richards and Carter. Obviously, those are impact players. But, Voracek, a top 10 first, Simmons, and Schenn is one heck of a return.

I think the Mark Streit contract will EVENTUALLY be looked at as another debacle (not in the short term though, because I think Streit will return to peak form next year).

The Hartnell/Timonen deal was interesting. I always wondered if that was agreed on as some part of the earlier Forsberg trade.

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