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Old
09-08-2013, 10:05 AM
  #251
Dorian2
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@CalgaryPuckSux.

Nice to read a fairly well thought out prospect take on some of the Flames prospects here. Much better than the typical trollcentric take we get from most fans of Calgary and Vancouver at this site. (although Vancouver does have a couple of good posters here as well every once in a while).

But I have to agree with some posters here who believe that you are as delusional about some of your prospects as many of us, including myself, were for a couple (or a few, or a whole **** load).

These kids have to start looking good at the NHL level sooner rather than later, or they are just going to be left behind in the minor leagues. (My meaning of minor leagues is anything but the NHL).

Some will transition better in a different league (SEL, KHL, AHL) but if they cannot hack it in the NHL, do not be too surprised.

Anyhow, thanks for your well thought out perspective of some up and coming Flamers. Their are a couple of good ones that we will see in the NHL against the Oil I'm sure!

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Old
09-08-2013, 05:48 PM
  #252
DethOfDragnz
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I know a lot of people like to make fun of Burke for his "blockbuster" trades in Toronto. I too at times had to scratch my head at some of his trades especially for those top draft picks. However I liked what he was doing overall. I thought he got some top players he found a decent goalie and even though they fired Burke, he probably got the last laugh as the team they fired him over made the playoffs the same year they fired him. With the same roster he put together. I think Burke is pretty smart and has good hockey sense. He sometimes takes risks and sometimes they flop and sometimes they pay off. I wish the Oilers had someone like him. The Oilers has this good old boys system of Lowe, MacTavish, and their buddies they give jobs to. Meanwhile guys like Burke get passed up on. It can get frustrating sometimes. I think Burke will do well in Calgary. They need a rebuild and unlike the Oilers I doubt their strategy will be to come in the bottom 5 for years and years until they have a roster decent enough to win a few games. (Yes I am grumpy today =P )

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09-08-2013, 06:31 PM
  #253
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Originally Posted by DethOfDragnz View Post
I think Burke is pretty smart and has good hockey sense. He sometimes takes risks and sometimes they flop and sometimes they pay off. I wish the Oilers had someone like him. The Oilers has this good old boys system of Lowe, MacTavish, and their buddies they give jobs to. Meanwhile guys like Burke get passed up on. It can get frustrating sometimes. I think Burke will do well in Calgary. They need a rebuild and unlike the Oilers I doubt their strategy will be to come in the bottom 5 for years and years until they have a roster decent enough to win a few games. (Yes I am grumpy today =P )
The main reason why the Oilers fired Tambellini was because he didn't take risks. Tambo was too afraid to lose a trade, thus he did virtually nothing at the deadline.

MacTavish can be that "someone like Burke". He may be even better than Burke.

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Old
09-08-2013, 07:16 PM
  #254
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Originally Posted by CGYPUKSUX View Post
I see the Flames at the same point as the Oilers were in 2006-07 when they finally got smart and moved Ryan Smyth. That was the same signal to the fans that the team was going for a major change. The Iginla era in Calgary is officially over and the Flames are turning the page, just like the Oilers did when they traded Smyth. How Calgary elects to move forward will define whether they are going to end up further ahead than Edmonton or suffer the same fate and go through a horrendously long rebuild. Burke's hiring could be beneficial in making the deals that make the team more competitive in a shorter time frame. Burke definitely has an advantage as the foundation has been laid for the future. He just has to build on that foundation.

There are some interesting comments about the bad shape Calgary is supposedly in. Can't prove it either way but on paper they look like they aren't in bad shape. Supposedly they have no future goaltending. Edmonton hockey fans can certainly tell you Brossoit is a damn good goaltender and a very solid prospect. He isn't even Calgary's best goaltending prospect. They have a kid by the name of Jon Gillies who dominated Hockey East and piled up the individual awards in his freshman year. This kid stoned Canada in the recent Lake Placid summer mini-tournament and should be the starter for the American team at this year's world junior tournament. There were comments coming out of Calgary during their developmental camp that indicated they believed Gillies was their best prospect. High praise considering their prospect depth.

Prospect depth is another area that is being ignored. The Flames have surprisingly good prospect depth all of a sudden. Their picks have stepped up and developed. People may want to rag on Calgary for taking a calculated risk in drafting Mark Jankowski, but he was very good at the summer Team Canada eval camp and was identified as a player, along with Emile Poirier, Canada was missing during the 5-1 loss to the Americans. His skill and size were missing in the mix. When you look at the Flames young center group you have to admit they have interesting potential. Jankowski at 6'3, Monahan at 6'2, Corbin Knight at 6'2 and Reinhart at 6'1 all have good size and skill. That doesn't include Backlund, Horak, Markus Granlund, or Boston College standout, Bill Arnold, another big body with skill. On the wings the Flames have the much talked about Baertschi that everyone is focusing on. Forgotten is Hobey Baker finalist and Boston College star, Johnny Gaureau, and Frozen Four hero for Yale, Kenny Agostino. Both players have top six potential. Then there are recent picks Poirier and Morgan Klimchuk, also top six potential players. The Flames also have some solid grit in Ben Hanowski, Michael Ferland, and Lance Bouwma. They are thin on the blueline but have some excellent young defenders in Pat Sieloff, Tyler Wotherspoon, John Ramage, and Oiler goal scoring hero from yesterday's young star game, Ryan Culkin. None of these guys are top pairing defenders, but are solid defenders who excelled at each level they played at and show great potential. The Flames system has a real interesting mix of quality young players who will be filtering into the ranks over the next two years. That is a huge benefit for Brian Burke and something the Oilers did not have working for them when they started the rebuild when they dealt away Smyth.

I don't see the Flames situation very similar to the Oilers because they have some good depth going into the rebuild. They are headed to a couple of early first round picks, no doubt. This is a freakishly bad hockey team right now and is only going to get worse when they finally move Cammalleri, Stempniak and Stajan this season. But they are not going to be as bad off as the Oilers, where they are working from a scorched earth position. The Oilers are in tough because they are trying to build some depth to support their first overall picks. Time is working against them. The Flames have that depth in development and as they add those top end picks, say Ekblad and McDavid, they will already have good depth to support them. The Flames rebuild is looking more like that of the Blackhawks, where much of their depth was drafted in 2003 and 2004, and then Toews and Kane were drafted in 2005 and 2006. The two star players are going to be drafted by the Flames in 2014 and 2015, but is the foundation laid in the 2011, 2012 and 2013 drafts and moves at the deadlines that catapult the team to the next level. There are no guarantees of anything, but if they Chicago model is accurate the Flames could be pretty damn good in a few years and vault past a lot of teams.
The Oilers at the beginning of their rebuild had a plethora of prospects and draft picks that we swore would turn this team around by the time our top draft picks were at the end of their ELC's. We followed the Chicago and Pittsburgh model, and we had the exact same kind of hope you have right now with your sub-pro prospects.

Let's take a look at who the Oilers drafted, starting with 2005.

Jeff Petry
Theo Peckham
Sam Gagner
Alex Plante
Riley Nash
Linus Omark
Jordan Eberle
Teemu Hartikainen
Magnus Paajarvi
Anton Lander

That was our prospect pool heading into our first #1 overall selection, in which we selected Taylor Hall in 2009. We also had at the end of 2008-2009 season

Ladislav Smid
Rob Schremp
Gilbert Brule
Andrew Cogliano

Who had graduated to the NHL very recently.

From that point, our 5 year rebuild officially began. That means we had a very healthy and robust pool in our system and a handful of prospects freshly graduated at the time Taylor Hall was drafted:

Jeff Petry
Theo Peckham
Sam Gagner
Alex Plante
Riley Nash
Linus Omark
Jordan Eberle
Teemu Hartikainen
Magnus Paajarvi
Anton Lander
Ladislav Smid
Rob Schremp
Gilbert Brule
Andrew Cogliano
Martin Marincin
Tyler Pitlick
Ryan Martindale
Curtis Hamilton

Along with a very healthy goaltending pool of Devan Dubnyk and Jeff Deslauriers who were considered the future of our goaltending.

And that's only year 1.

Year 2-4 saw the additions of:

Ryan Nugent-Hopkins
Oscar Klefbom
Nail Yakupov
Jujhar Khaira
Darnell Nurse
David Musil

So what does that mean? We must just suck balls at drafting, right? About to laugh at the prospects we had? These weren't just ordinary draft picks. Many of these prospects had the backing of some very reputable scouts and publications that catapulted our prospect pool into some high number, very similar to how the Flames view their own pool.

The biggest problem with assuming that your prospects are enough alone to vault you past 29 other teams who have also been drafting over the last 5 years is that you have no clue as to who is going to make it and who is going to bust.

I look at all these high hopes from Flames fans and I can't help but laugh. Many of them aren't even playing pro yet and you're already expecting them to be major contributors in the coming years. 75% of your top prospect pool won't be ready for when those veterans get moved or sign elsewhere.

There is no "Shorter time frame" for your rebuild. Your scouting is just as good as anybody else's, and that's only because I believe the scouting methods of today's scouts are so archaic they remind me of that movie "Moneyball" where they evaluate players based on their looks.

Expect more than half of your GOOD prospects to fall well short of expectations or bust completely. Then expect much of your long shots to never even make it out of the AHL, and those who do to be unprepared for the task of taking very important roles onto their shoulders. And truth be told, while the #1 overall is almost a sure thing, it too is subject to the trials and tribulations of carrying a franchise on their back. We were lucky Taylor Hall is able to. But Nail Yakupov and RNH don't have the character (IMO) to do what Hall did and not many players do. With a lack of veteran leadership as the prospects graduate, it will add another level of stress to an already stressed team.

And we're not even talking about the severe toll that losing has on a team and a franchise as a whole. Avoiding a losing culture is literally half the battle and is something that the Oilers organization has done very well at.

Food for thought about your supposed all star prospect pool.

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Old
09-09-2013, 05:17 PM
  #255
Angelus
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flames fans are in for a rude awakening if they think 2-3 years is enough time to fix that trainwreck.

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09-09-2013, 11:31 PM
  #256
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Flames will likely be competing around the same time we are.

:/

We're still a goalie, Centre depth, and 2x top pairing defenders away from seriously competing.



It's not unreasonable to think Burke would overpay to get those spots filled in the next 2-3 years... Maybe not goalie as that seems to be his Achilles heel.

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09-09-2013, 11:48 PM
  #257
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Originally Posted by Perfect_Drug View Post
Flames will likely be competing around the same time we are.

:/

We're still a goalie, Centre depth, and 2x top pairing defenders away from seriously competing.



It's not unreasonable to think Burke would overpay to get those spots filled in the next 2-3 years... Maybe not goalie as that seems to be his Achilles heel.
Gee that sounds an awful lot like Calgary given that their starter in MacDonald and their best center is Matt Stajan. And their defense is horrendous.

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Old
09-10-2013, 01:11 AM
  #258
okgooil
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flames fans are in for a rude awakening if they think 2-3 years is enough time to fix that trainwreck.
Ya, well if they get Rienhart and Mcdavid it might be, but odds are they aren't going to make the playoffs for 5 more years.

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09-10-2013, 04:42 PM
  #259
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Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
The Oilers at the beginning of their rebuild had a plethora of prospects and draft picks that we swore would turn this team around by the time our top draft picks were at the end of their ELC's. We followed the Chicago and Pittsburgh model, and we had the exact same kind of hope you have right now with your sub-pro prospects.

Let's take a look at who the Oilers drafted, starting with 2005.

Jeff Petry
Theo Peckham
Sam Gagner
Alex Plante
Riley Nash
Linus Omark
Jordan Eberle
Teemu Hartikainen
Magnus Paajarvi
Anton Lander

That was our prospect pool heading into our first #1 overall selection, in which we selected Taylor Hall in 2009. We also had at the end of 2008-2009 season

Ladislav Smid
Rob Schremp
Gilbert Brule
Andrew Cogliano

Who had graduated to the NHL very recently.

From that point, our 5 year rebuild officially began. That means we had a very healthy and robust pool in our system and a handful of prospects freshly graduated at the time Taylor Hall was drafted:

Jeff Petry
Theo Peckham
Sam Gagner
Alex Plante
Riley Nash
Linus Omark
Jordan Eberle
Teemu Hartikainen
Magnus Paajarvi
Anton Lander
Ladislav Smid
Rob Schremp
Gilbert Brule
Andrew Cogliano
Martin Marincin
Tyler Pitlick
Ryan Martindale
Curtis Hamilton

Along with a very healthy goaltending pool of Devan Dubnyk and Jeff Deslauriers who were considered the future of our goaltending.

And that's only year 1.

Year 2-4 saw the additions of:

Ryan Nugent-Hopkins
Oscar Klefbom
Nail Yakupov
Jujhar Khaira
Darnell Nurse
David Musil

So what does that mean? We must just suck balls at drafting, right? About to laugh at the prospects we had? These weren't just ordinary draft picks. Many of these prospects had the backing of some very reputable scouts and publications that catapulted our prospect pool into some high number, very similar to how the Flames view their own pool.

The biggest problem with assuming that your prospects are enough alone to vault you past 29 other teams who have also been drafting over the last 5 years is that you have no clue as to who is going to make it and who is going to bust.

I look at all these high hopes from Flames fans and I can't help but laugh. Many of them aren't even playing pro yet and you're already expecting them to be major contributors in the coming years. 75% of your top prospect pool won't be ready for when those veterans get moved or sign elsewhere.

There is no "Shorter time frame" for your rebuild. Your scouting is just as good as anybody else's, and that's only because I believe the scouting methods of today's scouts are so archaic they remind me of that movie "Moneyball" where they evaluate players based on their looks.

Expect more than half of your GOOD prospects to fall well short of expectations or bust completely. Then expect much of your long shots to never even make it out of the AHL, and those who do to be unprepared for the task of taking very important roles onto their shoulders. And truth be told, while the #1 overall is almost a sure thing, it too is subject to the trials and tribulations of carrying a franchise on their back. We were lucky Taylor Hall is able to. But Nail Yakupov and RNH don't have the character (IMO) to do what Hall did and not many players do. With a lack of veteran leadership as the prospects graduate, it will add another level of stress to an already stressed team.

And we're not even talking about the severe toll that losing has on a team and a franchise as a whole. Avoiding a losing culture is literally half the battle and is something that the Oilers organization has done very well at.

Food for thought about your supposed all star prospect pool.
You make some pretty good points, especially about the losing culture. I know I went into the Flames rebuild with a lot of apprehension. I look at the draft as purely a numbers game and only a handful will pan out, depending on the opportunities and development provided.

I will say that Feaster and Wiesbrod have made significant changes to the drafting process than what we saw with D. Sutter. We've seen examples of this with Jankowski, Gaudrea, Poirer, and a few other "contentious" picks. The process now involves a best player available rather than those qualitative traits like we saw in moneyball. Our scouts thought Janko had the best raw skill compared to all players still available to draft so they chose him even though its a project.

But who knows right? The example you provided with the Oilers and their high-ranked prospects at the time of a rebuild is proof that rankings aren't everything. I will say that the Oilers were lucky to have an owner that wanted a rebuild. The Flames owners pushed it off and consider it unacceptable as far as we can tell.

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09-10-2013, 05:53 PM
  #260
Perfect_Drug
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But who knows right? The example you provided with the Oilers and their high-ranked prospects at the time of a rebuild is proof that rankings aren't everything. I will say that the Oilers were lucky to have an owner that wanted a rebuild. The Flames owners pushed it off and consider it unacceptable as far as we can tell.
Brian Burke players LOVE playing for Burke, and Burke will gladly take a bullet for them. He gives and receives a lot of loyalty from his players.

Lowe on the other hand does not. He burns many bridges, has even go so far as demanded money back from players who requested trades, and often is very pushy about getting players to play while injured.

Calgary will obtain better free agents because of that. Calgary will also develop a better team culture because of that. Despite what anyone says about Burke's ability as GM, not many (if any) of his players have anything BAD to say about the guy. The same can't be said for our gong-show management team.


Im sure that Calgary will build a hardnosed lunch-bucket team that will outwork us on a regular basis. And we'll likely see them competing with us for the playoffs in 2-3 years.

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09-10-2013, 06:18 PM
  #261
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Brian Burke players LOVE playing for Burke, and Burke will gladly take a bullet for them. He gives and receives a lot of loyalty from his players.

Lowe on the other hand does not. He burns many bridges, has even go so far as demanded money back from players who requested trades, and often is very pushy about getting players to play while injured.

Calgary will obtain better free agents because of that. Calgary will also develop a better team culture because of that. Despite what anyone says about Burke's ability as GM, not many (if any) of his players have anything BAD to say about the guy. The same can't be said for our gong-show management team.


Im sure that Calgary will build a hardnosed lunch-bucket team that will outwork us on a regular basis. And we'll likely see them competing with us for the playoffs in 2-3 years.
Generally because he hands out wealthy contracts (Komisarek, Grabovski, Armstrong, Liles to name a few)

During his tenure as Toronto's GM, did he sign one premier player? I hate to use Clarkson as an example, but he did sign in Toronto. That's the only one I can think of that's signed in Toronto in the last number of years, and of course that was Nonis.

Calgary meanwhile was able to get quite a few prior. Jay Bouwmeester, overrated as he is, comes to mind.

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09-10-2013, 06:57 PM
  #262
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The Flames signed Hudler and Wideman last year and the club was on a downward trend. While Wideman isn't elit, there wasn't a lot of defensemen so I'm sure he got a few offers. But Cervenka was highly touted.

I honestly think the Oilers had issues with a lack of activity during the early stages of the rebuild. Like this year for example, there was a lot of teams tight against the cap and McTavish is not afraid to work the phones like he's hungry. To be honest, I'm not sure why Edmonton hasn't gone the offer sheet route. Guys like Franson and Petrang would make Edmonton deadly over night.

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09-10-2013, 07:03 PM
  #263
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The Flames signed Hudler and Wideman last year and the club was on a downward trend. While Wideman isn't elit, there wasn't a lot of defensemen so I'm sure he got a few offers. But Cervenka was highly touted.

I honestly think the Oilers had issues with a lack of activity during the early stages of the rebuild. Like this year for example, there was a lot of teams tight against the cap and McTavish is not afraid to work the phones like he's hungry. To be honest, I'm not sure why Edmonton hasn't gone the offer sheet route. Guys like Franson and Petrang would make Edmonton deadly over night.
Lack of a second rounder for starters. (Perron Trade)

But it feels like doing another GM's work for him. A lot can happen in a week and I imagine St. Louis or Toronto would find a way to match unless you really, really overpaid (and 4 1sts doesn't sound like a good investment to me)

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09-10-2013, 08:18 PM
  #264
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I see the Flames at the same point as the Oilers were in 2006-07 when they finally got smart and moved Ryan Smyth. That was the same signal to the fans that the team was going for a major change. The Iginla era in Calgary is officially over and the Flames are turning the page, just like the Oilers did when they traded Smyth. How Calgary elects to move forward will define whether they are going to end up further ahead than Edmonton or suffer the same fate and go through a horrendously long rebuild. Burke's hiring could be beneficial in making the deals that make the team more competitive in a shorter time frame. Burke definitely has an advantage as the foundation has been laid for the future. He just has to build on that foundation.

There are some interesting comments about the bad shape Calgary is supposedly in. Can't prove it either way but on paper they look like they aren't in bad shape. Supposedly they have no future goaltending. Edmonton hockey fans can certainly tell you Brossoit is a damn good goaltender and a very solid prospect. He isn't even Calgary's best goaltending prospect. They have a kid by the name of Jon Gillies who dominated Hockey East and piled up the individual awards in his freshman year. This kid stoned Canada in the recent Lake Placid summer mini-tournament and should be the starter for the American team at this year's world junior tournament. There were comments coming out of Calgary during their developmental camp that indicated they believed Gillies was their best prospect. High praise considering their prospect depth.

Prospect depth is another area that is being ignored. The Flames have surprisingly good prospect depth all of a sudden. Their picks have stepped up and developed. People may want to rag on Calgary for taking a calculated risk in drafting Mark Jankowski, but he was very good at the summer Team Canada eval camp and was identified as a player, along with Emile Poirier, Canada was missing during the 5-1 loss to the Americans. His skill and size were missing in the mix. When you look at the Flames young center group you have to admit they have interesting potential. Jankowski at 6'3, Monahan at 6'2, Corbin Knight at 6'2 and Reinhart at 6'1 all have good size and skill. That doesn't include Backlund, Horak, Markus Granlund, or Boston College standout, Bill Arnold, another big body with skill. On the wings the Flames have the much talked about Baertschi that everyone is focusing on. Forgotten is Hobey Baker finalist and Boston College star, Johnny Gaureau, and Frozen Four hero for Yale, Kenny Agostino. Both players have top six potential. Then there are recent picks Poirier and Morgan Klimchuk, also top six potential players. The Flames also have some solid grit in Ben Hanowski, Michael Ferland, and Lance Bouwma. They are thin on the blueline but have some excellent young defenders in Pat Sieloff, Tyler Wotherspoon, John Ramage, and Oiler goal scoring hero from yesterday's young star game, Ryan Culkin. None of these guys are top pairing defenders, but are solid defenders who excelled at each level they played at and show great potential. The Flames system has a real interesting mix of quality young players who will be filtering into the ranks over the next two years. That is a huge benefit for Brian Burke and something the Oilers did not have working for them when they started the rebuild when they dealt away Smyth.

I don't see the Flames situation very similar to the Oilers because they have some good depth going into the rebuild. They are headed to a couple of early first round picks, no doubt. This is a freakishly bad hockey team right now and is only going to get worse when they finally move Cammalleri, Stempniak and Stajan this season. But they are not going to be as bad off as the Oilers, where they are working from a scorched earth position. The Oilers are in tough because they are trying to build some depth to support their first overall picks. Time is working against them. The Flames have that depth in development and as they add those top end picks, say Ekblad and McDavid, they will already have good depth to support them. The Flames rebuild is looking more like that of the Blackhawks, where much of their depth was drafted in 2003 and 2004, and then Toews and Kane were drafted in 2005 and 2006. The two star players are going to be drafted by the Flames in 2014 and 2015, but is the foundation laid in the 2011, 2012 and 2013 drafts and moves at the deadlines that catapult the team to the next level. There are no guarantees of anything, but if they Chicago model is accurate the Flames could be pretty damn good in a few years and vault past a lot of teams.
No offense, but this is horrible. And its horrible that your making these huge assumptions of college/CHL players based on incredibly small sample sizes.

None of the guys youve mentioned have even played an AHL game. That is where the legit prospects are seperated from the fakes. Remember when Wahl, Howse and Nemisz were legit NHL prospects with top 6 upside in the CHL. Yeah, the AHL weeded them out. As it did with Pitlick and Hamilton. I dont buy prospect depth for a second when these guys are still in the CHL. Ill only buy it for players absolutly ripping their leagues up or who are extremely highly touted. Ill take a proven AHL prospect pool, like Tampa or Detriot

Take for example Jankowski. I wont rag on the pick, but ill rag on the canada WJC invite. He had a very medicore freshman season, and did almost nothing at the camp. Dont pimp him out. He has top 6 upside, but has a long way to go. All the other guys, have a minimal chance to make the NHL. And thats true for almost every NHL prospect pool. You can tell me all the stats about Bouwma or Ferland or Hanowksi you want, but they still arent 'special' prospects. Every team has them, and alot of them.

Now Im not trying to troll the Flames. I am jealous of Monahan, Knight and Bartschi. And I dont think theyll hit bottom 3 straight years. But their rebuild will be no better than the Oilers. A) They have no proven draft record, Bartschi is the only pick to semi play in the NHL. However they could find their own Eberle. B) They havent shown to be good at signing FA's, they overpaid for Hudler/Wideman (any GM can do this and get them) and missed on identifying talent in Cervanka. And calgary isnt a FA hotspot C) Feaster will never be a good trader. He will never pull off a hiest, hell be on the reciveing end most of the time.

Chances are the Flames finish 2-3 in 2014, get a good, but not elite talent. And finish in the 4th - 7th range the years after and pick good but not elite talents in the years after. These picks wont help them till 3-4 years down the road, and they (probaly) wont be elite talents then.

So I fail to see how the rebuild will be better, when:
- They wont be getting elite talents through the draft, like the Oilers did with Hall, RNH, Yakupov
- They (likely) wont find talent in FA without overpaying, limiting their ability to build a depth team
-They will have to get lucky. The Oilers got lucky getting two great players in Schultz and Eberle.

Right now they have better unproven 'depth' prospects playing in the CHL/NCAA with 2nd or bottom 6 upside. This is extremely unimpressive as those guys have to face the AHL, succeed and then the NHL. Take a list of your top 15-20 prospects (excluding NHL tested Barstchi). 1 guy will live up to expectation, 1-2 will be NHL'ers but not live up to potential, likely bottom 6ers. 1-2 will be AHL/NHL tweeners and the rest will be AHLers or busts. Take your pick of who theyll be, but this is the case for almost all NHL prospect pools.

It seems like you believe Feaster has found some Rebuild potion that no other GM was able to find. And hell unleash it this year. Saying the Flames rebuild will be better is full of contradictions.

1) The rebuild is better because of vets. Ok. If they have good vets, those vets will lead them to some more victories, but keep them from drafting elite talents. Then in 3 years those vets leave, leaving the flames with good but not elite top picks. While its cool to say "we never cheer for losses hoorah!!! only Oilers do that !!!" Its gunna lead to a worse future. Imagine the Oilers if they picked 4-7 in the drafts they picked 1st, they would be ALOT worse off. But hey, atleast they competed and didnt come last
2) The rebuild is better because we can trade the vets. Considering the Flames have been good in the past based solely on those vets (bartchi didnt lead the team in any departments) Now if you trade those vets for picks, the Flames lose all support and will collapse Oilers style, finishing in the bottom for consecutive years. And the picks that youll get for Cammy and Stempeniak will be 2nds. Probaly a 1st for Gio. Dont beleive me? Iggy was supposed to get a 1st + top prospect + young roster player +. Your expected trade value and the real trade value are likely way off.

The way I see it, the Oilers chugged a massive bottle of cough syrup to get better, and it sucked and I hated it, but it produced a core that is one of the best in the NHL. The Flames are sipping cough syrup, and will you wont be as sick, theyll be sick for longer and wont recover as well

Sorry to ruin your buzz


Last edited by topchowda: 09-10-2013 at 08:33 PM.
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09-10-2013, 09:17 PM
  #265
Perfect_Drug
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Truth is, many of us were saying a few years ago, we would be in the playoffs before Toronto.
Infact, many on this board were parading that around the time they jettisoned Seguin and Hamilton for Kessel.

Then the Leafs got into the playoffs before we did. WELL before we did. Infact, I don't see us getting in this year, while they're still on the border.

I don't think our rebuild is going as well as expected. We're doing it OPPOSITE of 'Net Out'. We're building our team like the Atlanta Thrashers... (Heatley/Kovalchuk era)



The reason I bring this up, is Calgary is positioned to rebuild CORRECTLY... From the Goaltender out. Knowing Burke's track history, he will nab some large and nasty Dmen, and depth players. Then he will very likely swing a deal for a franchise #1 Dman. Even if it does cost him a piece of the future. Then he will swing a deal for some solid top end scoring to compliment a roster of grit.


He has a tendency to build teams the opposite of the Oilers rebuild, and that method IS a lot faster.

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09-10-2013, 09:38 PM
  #266
Lay Z Boy GM
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Flames fans are doing what we did about 3-4 years ago. They're getting way too excited about B level prospects. Where are guys like Plante, Teubert, Pouliot, Schremp, Pitlick, Hamilton, etc? They looked good when they were just prospects, but they didn't amount to anything. I have a feeling this will happen to most of the current Flames prospects. If you consider our rebuild to have started when we drafted Hall, you have to remember we already had Gagner, Eberle, Petry, etc. The only guy the Flames have that is comparable to those guys is Sven.

The Flames are the worst team in the league on paper right now, so I'm pretty sure they'll have a good shot at drafting guys like Reinhart/Ekblad and McDavid next year. That's when their foundation will be set, and there's loads of work to do after that. You don't just take off once you draft the talent, we're a prime example of that. You have to develop these players, which can take YEARS, then you have to assemble the right supporting cast for those core players, which might never happen depending on the ability of your GM. Flames are probably 5 years away from the playoffs. Best case scenario they're 2-3 years away, but that's overly optimistic in my opinion.

Whatever though, this is what happens in rebuilds. They'll overhype their B level prospects just like we used to do. Then in 2-3 years time they'll look back and laugh at their lofty expectations for players that will end up in the ECHL.

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09-10-2013, 09:49 PM
  #267
MarkGio
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Yeah we're aware it will take a few years. Some of us predict us selling off some players at the deadline, while some of us are hoping for McDavid and Ekblad. Few are very optimistic however and believe we can turn it around immediately.

But I won't troll your guys' board anymore. Good luck fellas and hopefully the BoA will return to its glory!

BTW, Edmonton is a great city. I've lived in both Edmonton and Calgary. The river valley is nice and the summers are fun, especially when the Jazz and fringe come around. If only that Henday will ever be completed, there will be some real movement

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09-10-2013, 10:22 PM
  #268
Lay Z Boy GM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkGio View Post
Yeah we're aware it will take a few years. Some of us predict us selling off some players at the deadline, while some of us are hoping for McDavid and Ekblad. Few are very optimistic however and believe we can turn it around immediately.

But I won't troll your guys' board anymore. Good luck fellas and hopefully the BoA will return to its glory!

BTW, Edmonton is a great city. I've lived in both Edmonton and Calgary. The river valley is nice and the summers are fun, especially when the Jazz and fringe come around. If only that Henday will ever be completed, there will be some real movement
I don't mind you posting here, you're not trolling or anything, just some good old hockey talk.

I live in Calgary myself and was just trying to temper expectations. I noticed lots of people here expect a really quick rebuild, and I think they're setting themselves up for disappointment. Embrace the rebuild, it's fun in it's own way, it's just hard to take the losses. And don't stop going to games! I'd hate to hear people talking about the Atlanta Flames in a few years because Calgary gave up on the team, it almost happened before Iggy and Kipper saved hockey in Calgary years ago.

I'm really hoping the Flames end up getting Reinhart and McDavid myself. Would be a rough couple years, but think of all the young talent that would be in Alberta. The next decade of BOA's could be really, really great.

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