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Good/Bad GMs on big $ teams

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Old
09-10-2013, 02:22 PM
  #76
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Originally Posted by Maplelaughs97 View Post
How so? Looks like he's going to field a competitive team and get his rfa signed to reasonable deals...Clarkson deal is too long but it will pay dividends immediately...
You will find out quickly why it won't

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09-10-2013, 02:59 PM
  #77
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Originally Posted by Darth Milbury View Post
Holmgren made some mind blowing bad moves, like the Bryz situation but I am still impressed by the haul he got from Mike Richards and Carter. Obviously, those are impact players. But, Voracek, a top 10 first, Simmons, and Schenn is one heck of a return.
I think the Mark Streit contract will EVENTUALLY be looked at as another debacle (not in the short term though, because I think Streit will return to peak form next year).

The Hartnell/Timonen deal was interesting. I always wondered if that was agreed on as some part of the earlier Forsberg trade.
also got 2 picks that turned into Cousins and Grossmann

I 100% agree...they Bryz signing was a mistake...but it is one that MANY feel was pushed by the owner. So far, since Holmgrem took over in 2006/2007, the only years Philly missed the playoffs was his first year...and this past shortened year. So no year where he had control of Philly for 82 games has the team missed the playoffs. Not many GM's can say that. And the core of Philly is young so it is not like they have run their course...like a Calgary for example.

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09-10-2013, 07:10 PM
  #78
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Originally Posted by Gardner McKay View Post
Ironically, I know I will get flamed for this but... Glen Sather. The man has made bad signings. No one will argue. However, in a cap world he has managed to turn his bad signings into assets and then worked on building the team through the draft and acquisitions (Staal, Callahan, Hagelin, Del Zotto for draft and Girardi, Brassard, Moore, Nash & Boyle from acquisitions).

Great GM's are willing to adapt. Im not calling Sather a great GM. 99% of Rangers fans won't. I will say he has been a good GM for us though.
Sather has been generally awful at UFA signings. That said he seems to do very well with trades and has a great track record with RFAs

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09-10-2013, 07:24 PM
  #79
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Originally Posted by sansabri View Post
that's why i put Homer 'in between.' for all the bad things he's done, he's done a lot of good things too. maybe i'm wrong, but Homer doesn't waste his time with things he has a problem with. he didn't like how Richards and Carter acted off the ice - he dealt with them. Bryz was a bust? he dealt with it. he still got great value out of Richards and Carter... if i go by memory: B. Schenn, Voracek, Simmonds, Couturier...

Gillis' antics cost them Schneider because he wasn't satisfied ( for two years ) with what other teams were offering him for Luongo. Horvat looks good and all, but that feels like peanuts for what Schneider can do.
That's 1 trade.

He got Ehrhoff for free.

Signed the Sedins, Kesler, Hamhuis, Edler, Garrison all to discounts.

Rebuilt our prospect pool and the only big name player he traded was Schneider.

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09-10-2013, 07:26 PM
  #80
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Originally Posted by sansabri View Post
i agree with a lot of the things you're saying, but i simply believe that those two years of Gillis standing pat on the value he wanted for Luongo killed the teams' morale.

he's clearly done a lot of good things, but he created a media monster over the goalie situation and you could tell it messed with the players' heads. the Canucks are/were built to go deep into the playoffs and they've only managed to win one playoff game since they lost Game 7.
Yeah it has nothing to do with the team not being able to score goals.

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09-10-2013, 07:31 PM
  #81
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Originally Posted by haterbehatin View Post
Yeah for years Sather was the poster child of a guy who only does well if he's on a budget, guess a salary cap was just what he needed.
I seem to remember Sather whining about the money thrown around by the "big market teams" when he was the GM of the Oilers; but he turns around and pretty much does the same thing when he became GM of the Rangers.

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09-10-2013, 07:32 PM
  #82
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Originally Posted by TOGuy14 View Post
Sather has been generally awful at UFA signings. That said he seems to do very well with trades and has a great track record with RFAs

I'm really impressed by the defense he built. That was mostly through the draft, but drafting well is part of being a good GM. And, of course, he got his #1 dman (arguably) for a salary dump.

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09-10-2013, 07:34 PM
  #83
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Originally Posted by Barney Gumble View Post
I seem to remember Sather whining about the money thrown around by the "big market teams" when he was the GM of the Oilers; but he turns around and pretty much does the same thing when he became GM of the Rangers.

Well, would you expect him to NOT spend the $?

Mike "I'm insane" Milbury once joked that he would have to rely on the corporate bicycle for transportation (in comparison to the Rangers' corporate jet) and he labeled the spending of the Rangers "fiscal ridiculousness". That, of course, didn't stop him from spending major Wangbucks on Peca and Yashin when he had he chance.

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09-10-2013, 08:14 PM
  #84
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Originally Posted by Lord Flacko View Post
That's 1 trade.

He got Ehrhoff for free.

Signed the Sedins, Kesler, Hamhuis, Edler, Garrison all to discounts.

Rebuilt our prospect pool and the only big name player he traded was Schneider.
How was Garrison signed for a discount? 4.6 per year for 6 years for a Dman like that is hardly a discount.

Gillis inherited an excellent roster that was heading into its prime.

He is the same GM who traded Hodgson for Kassian, signed Luongo to that deal in the 1st place than cause a gongshow media storm by not handling the Luongo/Schneider situation well, traded a lot for Ballard, traded for Booth whose a bad contract.

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09-10-2013, 08:19 PM
  #85
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Originally Posted by Ricky Bobby View Post
How was Garrison signed for a discount? 4.6 per year for 6 years for a Dman like that is hardly a discount.

Gillis inherited an excellent roster that was heading into its prime.

He is the same GM who traded Hodgson for Kassian, signed Luongo to that deal in the 1st place than cause a gongshow media storm by not handling the Luongo/Schneider situation well, traded a lot for Ballard, traded for Booth whose a bad contract.

I respect all your criticisms, but it is too early to conclude that the Nucks lost the Kassian trade. He could still develop into the better player (or at least the player who is a better fit for VCR).

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09-10-2013, 08:20 PM
  #86
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Originally Posted by WillyBilly1990 View Post
You forgot to add the bolded


I only added losses that matter

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09-10-2013, 08:22 PM
  #87
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Originally Posted by Darth Milbury View Post
Well, would you expect him to NOT spend the $?

Mike "I'm insane" Milbury once joked that he would have to rely on the corporate bicycle for transportation (in comparison to the Rangers' corporate jet) and he labeled the spending of the Rangers "fiscal ridiculousness". That, of course, didn't stop him from spending major Wangbucks on Peca and Yashin when he had he chance.
and Osgood

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09-10-2013, 08:24 PM
  #88
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and Osgood
I don't remember Osgood having that huge a salary when he was acquired.

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09-10-2013, 08:30 PM
  #89
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Originally Posted by Ricky Bobby View Post
How was Garrison signed for a discount? 4.6 per year for 6 years for a Dman like that is hardly a discount.

Gillis inherited an excellent roster that was heading into its prime.

He is the same GM who traded Hodgson for Kassian, signed Luongo to that deal in the 1st place than cause a gongshow media storm by not handling the Luongo/Schneider situation well, traded a lot for Ballard, traded for Booth whose a bad contract.
Garrison was offered more by other teams but Gillis convinced him to take less to play in Vancouver. 4.6M is very good for a #2 defensemen (he was equal to Hamhuis last season).

Hodgson for Kassian is not a deal I would undo. Kassian fills a need for us and is 22 years old so I don't understand why people are writing him off as if he's a bust.. Plus Hodgson asked to be traded. His defensive deficiencies, and inability to play on the wing are also concerning.

The Ballard trade was bad.

The Booth trade was bad but we didn't really trade anything of value for him.

Say what you want about the Luongo deal but 5.3M is a hell of a steal for a top 10 (arguably top 5) goaltender.

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09-10-2013, 09:07 PM
  #90
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Originally Posted by Hawkaholic View Post
Good: Holland, Chiarelli, Bowman, Lombardi
Average: Shero, Bergevin, McPhee, Gillis
Below Average: Nonis, Feaster
Terrible: Holmgren
Assuming the order doesn't determine rank, I think this is a solid way of breaking it down, with a few key GMs in the "big money club" missing/too new to show their stuff.

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Originally Posted by FlameChampion View Post
I think its an interesting thought that it can be a bit harder to run a team when you are spending to the cap. It shouldnt really be the case but I think its just mainly because too many GM's hand out stupid contracts for UFA players or pay certain players more than what they are worth.

My opinion on Good who spend big ($) amounts on their team:

Pittsburg - I think Shero has done a good job for the most part. Always active with trades, brings in some good players. Dont think hes really signed a lot of brutal contracts (there are some bad ones but for the most part they pay their good players and not average players). However I am not sure trading all your draft picks for rentals is good for your future. (Pittsburg core is fairly young though and they do have quite a bit of defenseman in the system).

Boston - I think Chiralleli is one of the best. He is aggressive but he seems calm/controlled with his decisions. Boston has a solid roster with not a ton of bad contracts. I think they are bit more conservative too and dont give away as many draft picks.

Chicago - I am not sure we have really seen enough of Bowman to know. He inherited an already good team. But at the same time he hasnt really made any bad decisions either which should count for something. For a team thats right up at the cap, Chicago under Bowman seems to be a bit more patient than some of the other teams who spend $, which seemed to pay off for them this year.

Vancouver - I know alot of people seem to rag on Gillis. I am not sure how I totally feel about him but Vancouver has been pretty competitive for a number of years so that should count for something. He seems very good at contracts, not too many bad ones get signed. I dont think he has handled the goaltending situation very well though and I think Vancouver has been running too long with any new personnel really coming up and making an impression. The next year or two I think will really define how he is viewed in the hockey world.

Los Angeles - Lombardi just seems to really not make any poor decisions when it comes to contracts. He also is somewhat aggressive at pulling off trades. They also seem to do a decent job at bringing talent into their system. Their core of players are still fairly young and they now have a lot of experience.

San Jose - Wilson seems like hes always trying to do something to make his team better. San Jose has been competitive for a long time now. And even though they have never won they cup, they are a team thats been bringing in alot of playoff revenue for a very long time. Wilson doesnt seem to give out many bad contracts. The biggest fault I think with him is that he probably has sacrificed too much for the future. Like Vancouver, it will be interesting to see how the Sharks are in a few years time.

Detroit - Holland does a very good job. The team is always competitive and for the most part he is fairly active. I also think he is very patient as well. He doesnt seem to get caught much on bad contracts. That being said, I think he probably could have done more with the team the last couple years but thats being said, sometimes the decisions you dont make, turn out for the best in the long term. Will be interesting to see how Detroit does this year since they spent a little money and will be playing in the east.
Very solid list and explanations. I agree with almost all of it, and the rest I'd have to politely and respectfully just bow my head to. We need more posts like this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord Flacko View Post
That's 1 trade.

He got Ehrhoff for free.

Signed the Sedins, Kesler, Hamhuis, Edler, Garrison all to discounts.

Rebuilt our prospect pool and the only big name player he traded was Schneider.
And Burrows, and Hansen, and Higgins, and Lapierre (first contract here for Burr and Lappy anyway), and Schneider, and even Lu (in hindsight now, his cap hit is a blessing).

I'd also like to point out that players like Malhotra were brought in for key roles, and prior to his injury, Manny dominated the 3C position. It's the smaller pieces that sometimes make huge differences too.

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Originally Posted by Ricky Bobby View Post
How was Garrison signed for a discount? 4.6 per year for 6 years for a Dman like that is hardly a discount.

Gillis inherited an excellent roster that was heading into its prime.

He is the same GM who traded Hodgson for Kassian, signed Luongo to that deal in the 1st place than cause a gongshow media storm by not handling the Luongo/Schneider situation well, traded a lot for Ballard, traded for Booth whose a bad contract.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth Milbury View Post
I respect all your criticisms, but it is too early to conclude that the Nucks lost the Kassian trade. He could still develop into the better player (or at least the player who is a better fit for VCR).
Thanks for addressing the Kassian/Hodgson trade as a neutral party Darth. Couldn't have said it better myself.

As for Garrison, after a 17 goal season (which isn't why we had interest in him, it's his defensive and transition play), he could have named his price. Look at Green, look at Weber, look Karlsson, look at any other 15+ Goal defender. North of 5 easily, with rumours of upto 6 annually. Heck, Wiz got 5.5 from Columbus. And look at Gonchar's last contract. All huge too.

As for "inheriting" said roster, assuming this is true (it's not, big additions have been made and everyone that has changed took big discounts to stay), we also had 0 reasonable prospects. Tanev and Lack were brought in to salvage the draft year we didn't get them, Grabner, Schneider, the Sedins...these kinds of picks were few and far between. Gillis has set us up with youth and prospects ready to make an impact this year, next year, or in the near future. It would be like saying Nonis inherited his roster, as with few moves, it became a contender. But Ehrhoff, Sundin, Demitra, Samuelsson, Malhotra, Higgins, Lapierre, Hamhuis, Garrison, every star player signing below term, and even guys like Alberts...it's not been a stable roster with all of the Nonis/Burke era guys sticking around.

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Old
09-11-2013, 10:34 AM
  #91
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Originally Posted by Lord Flacko View Post
Garrison was offered more by other teams but Gillis convinced him to take less to play in Vancouver. 4.6M is very good for a #2 defensemen (he was equal to Hamhuis last season).

Hodgson for Kassian is not a deal I would undo. Kassian fills a need for us and is 22 years old so I don't understand why people are writing him off as if he's a bust.. Plus Hodgson asked to be traded. His defensive deficiencies, and inability to play on the wing are also concerning.

The Ballard trade was bad.

The Booth trade was bad but we didn't really trade anything of value for him.

Say what you want about the Luongo deal but 5.3M is a hell of a steal for a top 10 (arguably top 5) goaltender.
http://www.vancitybuzz.com/2012/05/j...-in-vancouver/

Garrison made it clear going into free agency that he specifically wanted to play for the Canucks. Pretty much anything they offered in the ballpark would have signed him. This wasn't a big win for Gillis. Garrison was quite candid in airing that out in public as well

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/sport...ticle10739692/

Quote:
Typically candid, Luongo said exactly that at a press gathering following practice. When asked why he thought he remained in Vancouver, Luongo answered: “My contract sucks. That’s what the problem is. Unfortunately, it’s a big factor in trading me, and it’s probably why I’m still here.”

When asked if the money he was earning – a 12-year, $64-million contract – is poor compensation for not playing, he answered: “I’d scrap it if I could right now.”
While the contract may be good value in terms of cap hit, the length of it is atrocious. Luongo himself has said his contract "sucks" and was the reason nobody wanted to trade for him.

Classifying it as a "hell of a steal" seems extremely biased on your part.

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Old
09-11-2013, 11:02 AM
  #92
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Someone help me out ... how much money do Jeff Finger, David Clarkson, Brett Lebda and John-Michael Liles have in their Wells Fargo accounts?
What does this even mean? 1 has not played a game after signing yet and was the only signing of our current GM, only 2 of the 4 players were signed by the same GM (one of whom turned into one of our better young players).

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