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2013-14 Training Camp Discussion

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Old
09-11-2013, 11:47 AM
  #201
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Originally Posted by 417 View Post
I don't think you should read too much into developmental/rookie camps...Beaulieu seems to me the type of player who's game really stands out when the talent level around him increases.

We'll be able to get a better look at where he's at in his development during the main camp.
Question of how he finished the year, and how he's conducting himself so far. But you are right....we'll see at the main camp. Just that my opinion as of now is that he's not impressing EVEN THOUGH I did mention he was okay Monday.

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09-11-2013, 12:16 PM
  #202
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Originally Posted by Richiebottles View Post
I think that Nygren will jump ahead of Beaulieu in the call up order IMO. He should get a shot very soon. We really do have a great depth right now and it will only continue to get better.
Nygren is 3 years older than Beaulieu, we can't forget that NB is still only 20 years old. Another full year AHL would only help his development.

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09-11-2013, 12:26 PM
  #203
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Originally Posted by Whitesnake View Post
Beaulieu needs another full year in the AHL. I know everything can happen, but I wouldn't even have him in my list of callups. Not sure what they'll do with Lashoff but if he does well...he's ahead. Same with Nygren. Same obviously with Tinordi. Geez, maybe same for Pateryn.
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Originally Posted by Redux91 View Post
I would say Tinordi and even Pateryn (amazingly enough) are ahead of beaulieu in the callups at the moment (pateryn seems to REALLY want to be a hab)

and nygren is certainly making a case to GET ahead ( and doing well it seems) ,

but why would you hold this "lashoff" guy so high?
It says more about the Habs depth on defense than about Beaulieu. He didn't look out of place last yaer during his call up having barely turned 20. I think he needs to mature both emotianally and physically and this is the perfect time to do it, easier to get a player to make the necessary changes in the AHL than in the NHl with bigger money and more spotlight, much bigger nightlife etc

I hope MB and co don't go and trade him, I love his upside. He has the potential to be a perennial NHL all-star d-man in a few years.

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Old
09-11-2013, 12:28 PM
  #204
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For those who wondered about what is in the plan for Briere:

Bob McKenzie ‏@TSNBobMcKenzie 35m
One option, maybe the primary one, for MTL's deployment of Danny Briere is to play him on RW alongside David Desharnais and Max Pacioretty.

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09-11-2013, 12:31 PM
  #205
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Originally Posted by HiggsBozon View Post
For those who wondered about what is in the plan for Briere:

Bob McKenzie ‏@TSNBobMcKenzie 35m
One option, maybe the primary one, for MTL's deployment of Danny Briere is to play him on RW alongside David Desharnais and Max Pacioretty.
This makes me feel a bit better. Thanks for posting. I feared he would be put with Pleks. I still don't agree with keeping maxpac glued to DD, but good news is good news.

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09-11-2013, 12:32 PM
  #206
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I hope not cause that would mean Eller is number 3 still

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Old
09-11-2013, 12:34 PM
  #207
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At this point, if I'm MT, I use:

Pacioretty - Desharnais - Briere
Bourque - Plekanec - Gallagher
Galchenyuk - Eller - Gionta
Moen - Prust - Parros/White

You have two very good two-way lines out there, as well as a 4th line with two players who are known for being very reliable defensively.

Pacioretty, Desharnais and Briere are mainly used in the offensive zone faceoffs.

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09-11-2013, 12:43 PM
  #208
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Originally Posted by OpenIceHit View Post
No I didn't.
They seemed as upset as us with the trade. http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh....php?t=1459991

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Old
09-11-2013, 12:48 PM
  #209
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HiggsBozon View Post
At this point, if I'm MT, I use:

Pacioretty - Desharnais - Briere
Bourque - Plekanec - Gallagher
Galchenyuk - Eller - Gionta
Moen - Prust - Parros/White

You have two very good two-way lines out there, as well as a 4th line with two players who are known for being very reliable defensively.

Pacioretty, Desharnais and Briere are mainly used in the offensive zone faceoffs.


I don't see the Bourque-plek-gallagher line as being all that great in a two-way capacity. Pleks has needed a good two-way winger like gionta to get anything done with the opposition he regularly faces.

I also don't understand the logic behind having an exploitation line as your 'frst' line, but I doubt your line ordering means anything.

maxpac - Pleks - Gionta (beast two way line)
Galchenyuk - eller - Gallagher (line that can probably handle 2nd line opposition well)
Bourque - DD - Briere (exploitation line that gets sent out for offensive minutes)
Moen - White - Prust (although prust at center if parros is used over white)


This is what I would use. Gionta possibly being out really complicates matters, however, since it leaves us without our best two way right winger. Pleks will likely struggle unless someone else really steps up on his wing.

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Old
09-11-2013, 12:52 PM
  #210
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HiggsBozon View Post
For those who wondered about what is in the plan for Briere:

Bob McKenzie ‏@TSNBobMcKenzie 35m
One option, maybe the primary one, for MTL's deployment of Danny Briere is to play him on RW alongside David Desharnais and Max Pacioretty.
Also pretty happy to hear about this, as i thought gallagher with patches and DD was destined to fail , while gallagher WITH galchenyuk only seemed to WORK, it worked so well it bumped gallagher to top 6 while galchenyuk went in a little slump

With that said, i didnt mind seeing briere flank eller and galchenyuk, but overly pleased that instead it just might very well be gallaghers spot again

will briere with DD and patches work, we'll find out soon enough, im not crazy about keeping DD and patches together either but they DO work well together sometimes, and for those who think Pleks and DD arent our 1-2 while eller remains 3rd line C, your too naive, its DD's spot until hes gone unfortunately...

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Old
09-11-2013, 01:02 PM
  #211
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Originally Posted by onice View Post
Kristo is 23 and hasn't played any significant time in the AHL. He has been in the NCAA. Very few players step out of that league and into the NHL and make a mark right away. The only one that comes to mind is the Oiler defenceman from last year and he was dominating in college. Although he played well in college, dominating is not a word I would associate with Kristo.

I wouldn't be surprised if he starts with the Rags and is sent down half way through the season or sees very little ice time with the big team.

the Habs are no longer a team run by incompetent GMs like Gainey and Gauthier who made decision without consulting anyone. Bergevin had the whole management staff (Dudley, Carriere, Lapointe, Mellanby and maybe Timmins)in on this decision.
He finished 2nd among all NCAA players.
What do you need to say dominating?
He also did pretty well in WJC-20 with Stepan.
Played twice while Thomas did not even play in WJC.

This has nothing to do with the value of Thomas and how he will pan out with us.
I was frustrated to see Kristo traded because I waited four years to see how he would pan out for us.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richiebottles View Post
I think that Nygren will jump ahead of Beaulieu in the call up order IMO. He should get a shot very soon. We really do have a great depth right now and it will only continue to get better.
That would make sense as Nygren is three years older.
Also it could be good for Beaulieu as it would force him to improve more.

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Old
09-11-2013, 01:10 PM
  #212
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Originally Posted by overlords View Post
This makes me feel a bit better. Thanks for posting. I feared he would be put with Pleks. I still don't agree with keeping maxpac glued to DD, but good news is good news.
DD maximizes Pacioretty's goal scoring. Since being paired together in the AHL 3+ years ago Max's scoring rate has increased by a lot. DD has to be used in an offensive role to maximise his output, Eller and Plekanec can play a variety of roles.

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Old
09-11-2013, 01:12 PM
  #213
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HiggsBozon View Post
At this point, if I'm MT, I use:

Pacioretty - Desharnais - Briere
Bourque - Plekanec - Gallagher
Galchenyuk - Eller - Gionta
Moen - Prust - Parros/White

You have two very good two-way lines out there, as well as a 4th line with two players who are known for being very reliable defensively.

Pacioretty, Desharnais and Briere are mainly used in the offensive zone faceoffs.
Plekanec plays a ton against top lines, putting him with a rookie and Bourque who is ok defensively but not great is not a good plan. Gionta can score around 25 and give you very good defensive play, something Gallagher doesn't do at this point.

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Old
09-11-2013, 01:15 PM
  #214
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Monctonscout View Post
DD maximizes Pacioretty's goal scoring. Since being paired together in the AHL 3+ years ago Max's scoring rate has increased by a lot. DD has to be used in an offensive role to maximise his output, Eller and Plekanec can play a variety of roles.
Except that Maxpac has already produced at a better clip with Pleks than with DD. The DD-Maxpac thing is a self-perpetuating myth that needs to stop. Max doesn't need anybody to make him score, he's legitimately one of the best LWs in the game. Tying him down to exploitation line responsibilities, minutes and linemates is ridiculous.

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Old
09-11-2013, 01:16 PM
  #215
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HiggsBozon View Post
At this point, if I'm MT, I use:

Pacioretty - Desharnais - Briere
Bourque - Plekanec - Gallagher
Galchenyuk - Eller - Gionta
Moen - Prust - Parros/White

You have two very good two-way lines out there, as well as a 4th line with two players who are known for being very reliable defensively.

Pacioretty, Desharnais and Briere are mainly used in the offensive zone faceoffs.
I look at this and really hope there is a trade of some sort. Prust is too good for the 4th line, he's going to turn into the same despondent unengaged player that Moen currently is there. Prust was effective riding shotgun with the rookies , he kept up with the play, chipped in here and there, and was there for some cleaning work when things went down. He is now a complete waste playing minimal time on line 4 not to mention expensive.

This is the headscratcher with the DD deal, it came at the exact moment he became a surplus player.

This looks like a total concentration of toughness on one line , where it will get used to snarl at the likes of Colton Orr and any other prize fighting threat that occasionally gets sent to the ice. Bah.

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Old
09-11-2013, 01:20 PM
  #216
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Quote:
Originally Posted by overlords View Post
Except that Maxpac has already produced at a better clip with Pleks than with DD. The DD-Maxpac thing is a self-perpetuating myth that needs to stop. Max doesn't need anybody to make him score, he's legitimately one of the best LWs in the game. Tying him down to exploitation line responsibilities, minutes and linemates is ridiculous.
Not sure where you get your info on Pacioretty with Plekanec. They haven't played together for any length of time since DD and Pacioretty were called up 3 years ago.

Plus, Plekanec gets a lot more defensive tasks and defensive zone starts, not good for maxing our Pacioretty's offense. THAT would be tying down Pacioretty. Plekanec has had good success with Gionta and Bourque, why mess with that also.

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09-11-2013, 01:22 PM
  #217
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Originally Posted by Lions999 View Post
I hope not cause that would mean Eller is number 3 still
I don't see a clear cut first line or 3rd line with this team. I see them on an even footing, being considered 2A, 2B & 2C with the line that clicks the best on any given night being given better ice time.

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Old
09-11-2013, 01:24 PM
  #218
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Originally Posted by Agnostic View Post
I look at this and really hope there is a trade of some sort. Prust is too good for the 4th line, he's going to turn into the same despondent unengaged player that Moen currently is there. Prust was effective riding shotgun with the rookies , he kept up with the play, chipped in here and there, and was there for some cleaning work when things went down. He is now a complete waste playing minimal time on line 4 not to mention expensive.

This is the headscratcher with the DD deal, it came at the exact moment he became a surplus player.

This looks like a total concentration of toughness on one line , where it will get used to snarl at the likes of Colton Orr and any other prize fighting threat that occasionally gets sent to the ice. Bah.
Just because Prust is techically on the 4th line doesn't mean he can move up at different times during games or season if they need energy or have injuries etc. Having depth is a good thing, you make it sound like a bad thing.

Unless you want to consider Biere a center(he was signed to replace Ryder on RW) we don't have a surplus of centers that can play top 9. Next year maybe that's Galchenyuk, but for this year it would be needlessly rushing him plus opening a hole on the wing.

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Old
09-11-2013, 01:24 PM
  #219
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Originally Posted by Monctonscout View Post
Not sure where you get your info on Pacioretty with Plekanec. They haven't played together for any length of time since DD and Pacioretty were called up 3 years ago.

Plus, Plekanec gets a lot more defensive tasks and defensive zone starts, not good for maxing our Pacioretty's offense. THAT would be tying down Pacioretty. Plekanec has had good success with Gionta and Bourque, why mess with that also.
You said the exact same thing in another thread not too long ago, I believe, and when we posted the stats I don't know if you ever even answered. I might be confusing you with someone else, though.

It's not some massive sample size, but yes it happened.

You're not tying him down, you're letting him play more. Pleks will get the most ice time. Adding maxpac to that trio only means that they'll be pinning other team's top lines in their defensive zone that much more. You play your best players most. Maxpac is our best LW. Play him as often as you can. What he loses out on points he'll make up for in keeping the goals out of our own net. And on top of that, he'll be playing more. So that's a net gain for the team. I couldn't care less about his points column.

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Old
09-11-2013, 01:29 PM
  #220
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Originally Posted by overlords View Post
You said the exact same thing in another thread not too long ago, I believe, and when we posted the stats I don't know if you ever even answered. I might be confusing you with someone else, though.

It's not some massive sample size, but yes it happened.

You're not tying him down, you're letting him play more. Pleks will get the most ice time. Adding maxpac to that trio only means that they'll be pinning other team's top lines in their defensive zone that much more. You play your best players most. Maxpac is our best LW. Play him as often as you can. What he loses out on points he'll make up for in keeping the goals out of our own net. And on top of that, he'll be playing more. So that's a net gain for the team. I couldn't care less about his points column.
I remember somebody posted that and it was a very small sample size, making it completely irrelevant.

That's like saying Kunitz played 5 shifts in his lifetime with Parros and had a point, so Parros is a better fit as a linemate tahn Crosby because Kunitz puts up a point every 26 shifts with Crosby. I know I'm exagerating but you get my drift...

I agree Max should get the most ice time of our LW and he will. I don't agree with your "pinning the opposition in their zone that much more" , Max isn't an exceptional defensive player and playing him more in defensive situations will just have him chasing the puck instaed of chasing goals. Again, DD-Max works great it's dumb to mess with it.

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09-11-2013, 01:34 PM
  #221
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Beaulieu is one hell of a player, and you can see in rookie scrimmages they're not on his level and he knows it. He can skate the puck out of the defensive zone with a coffee in hand and not spill a drop.

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09-11-2013, 01:42 PM
  #222
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Quote:
Originally Posted by overlords View Post
You said the exact same thing in another thread not too long ago, I believe, and when we posted the stats I don't know if you ever even answered. I might be confusing you with someone else, though.

It's not some massive sample size, but yes it happened.

You're not tying him down, you're letting him play more. Pleks will get the most ice time. Adding maxpac to that trio only means that they'll be pinning other team's top lines in their defensive zone that much more. You play your best players most. Maxpac is our best LW. Play him as often as you can. What he loses out on points he'll make up for in keeping the goals out of our own net. And on top of that, he'll be playing more. So that's a net gain for the team. I couldn't care less about his points column.
I remember it, a while ago, the line was something like patches - pleks- Kostitsyn

it was only a handful of games, but i remember they racked up a good amount of points together (specifically vs pittsburgh i remember for some reason)

but your 100% right, ..this myth that pacioretty MUST pay next to desharnais is quickly becoming annoying, ..hell pacioretty is probably the SOLE reason desharnais got a 4 year contract, and it pisses me off sadly

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09-11-2013, 01:45 PM
  #223
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Monctonscout View Post
I remember somebody posted that and it was a very small sample size, making it completely irrelevant.

That's like saying Kunitz played 5 shifts in his lifetime with Parros and had a point, so Parros is a better fit as a linemate tahn Crosby because Kunitz puts up a point every 26 shifts with Crosby. I know I'm exagerating but you get my drift...

I agree Max should get the most ice time of our LW and he will. I don't agree with your "pinning the opposition in their zone that much more" , Max isn't an exceptional defensive player and playing him more in defensive situations will just have him chasing the puck instaed of chasing goals. Again, DD-Max works great it's dumb to mess with it.
But thats the thing, overlords is not stressing that they HAVE to be absolutely split up, he's just clarifying that DD + Max shouldnt be INSEPERABLE no matter what, if anything its dumb to think you CANT mess with it, leaving them together could be a big factor in where our season goes

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09-11-2013, 01:46 PM
  #224
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Originally Posted by Monctonscout View Post
It says more about the Habs depth on defense than about Beaulieu. He didn't look out of place last yaer during his call up having barely turned 20. I think he needs to mature both emotianally and physically and this is the perfect time to do it, easier to get a player to make the necessary changes in the AHL than in the NHl with bigger money and more spotlight, much bigger nightlife etc

I hope MB and co don't go and trade him, I love his upside. He has the potential to be a perennial NHL all-star d-man in a few years.
Don't want to trade him either. I hate prospects being traded for so-called attitude problems when they are suddenly angels with their new teams. You work with guys like that. Beaulieu deserves that some people give them their time to work on things. But i'd go slowly with him. I'd make him be humble about this whole thing. Nothing should be given but earned.

I was a big fan of picking Beaulieu in his draft year and still I am a fan of what the player can bring. Not a fan of what he's doing now but not going to throw him under the bus...sticking to me liking him. But he needs to get going. He should have dominated the last 2 camps. He didn't. At best, he was okay. Not good enough for a guy who we think has a shot in the bigs from the start. Let's hope for a strong main camp. As of now, he's looking much more a Ron Hainsey than a All-Star but things can change quickly.

Personnally, I think it's a bigger season for Price than for any of those guys. So having Beaulieu out there, I don't think it reassures me as far as the quality of protection that Price will be getting....

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09-11-2013, 01:59 PM
  #225
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Originally Posted by Monctonscout View Post
Not sure where you get your info on Pacioretty with Plekanec. They haven't played together for any length of time since DD and Pacioretty were called up 3 years ago.

Plus, Plekanec gets a lot more defensive tasks and defensive zone starts, not good for maxing our Pacioretty's offense. THAT would be tying down Pacioretty. Plekanec has had good success with Gionta and Bourque, why mess with that also.
If Plekanec can be a 70 pts player with Kovalev and AK, I'm sure he will do well with Pacioretty as well if given the chance to play for a long period of time.

Plekanec became less productive because we rarely give him good wingers lately.

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