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Old
09-10-2013, 09:40 PM
  #676
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Originally Posted by Mr Atoz View Post
How well did it work out for Dubinsky?
I edited him out because he actually was heading to arbitration. But it worked out well for Dubinsky. The Rangers were offering him a 1 year deal for 700k and a 2 year deal for 1.8m. The ended up giving him a 2 year deal for 3.7m.

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09-10-2013, 09:44 PM
  #677
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Stepan doesn't think he's the best at his position. Nor is he holding out while under contract. I don't understand why you're making the comparison.

RFAs that aren't arbitration-eligible have one tool for leverage. He's exercising it. Just like Subban. It happens. It's not an ego thing. Strictly business.
Being a RFA is a defacto-contract by C.B.Agreement. It means you're sill the new guy and if you want any sort of big money you need to suck it up and play by the rules like everyone else, you can't go and get top market dollar just yet. Leverage comes with time, he'll find out soon he doesn't have much of any leverage

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09-10-2013, 09:50 PM
  #678
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Originally Posted by GordonGecko View Post
Being a RFA is a defacto-contract by C.B.Agreement. It means you're sill the new guy and if you want any sort of big money you need to suck it up and play by the rules like everyone else, you can't go and get top market dollar just yet. Leverage comes with time, he'll find out soon he doesn't have much of any leverage
He is playing by the rules. It is well within his rights to sit idle and wait for an offer that is acceptable to him. I get it, he's not being a team player. But whatever, it's a business.

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09-11-2013, 12:35 AM
  #679
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Only a matter of time before people start turning on Stepan in masses. (cough 'Dubinsky' cough)

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09-11-2013, 12:38 AM
  #680
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Originally Posted by Trxjw View Post
It's tough because even if the team isn't ready to compete --which obviously the org thinks it is -- Stepan is the kind of young talent you want to build your team around.
Well to an extent, sure. He's not Stamkos, he's not Tavares, he's not Crosby, and although it's a bit early to hedge bets, I'd say he's not McDavid either. I am a Stepan fan, so don't take this the wrong way, but a player of his caliber is not the type of guy you build a team around. He's solid defensively and he makes smart plays, but he doesn't make an abundance of brilliant plays like those truly elite talents do. His skating and lack of toughness is a concern, as it is with Tavares, but Step also doesn't have JT's ridiculous combination of hockey IQ and execution.

I think Step's a great player, but when or if it came down to a kid that's called the next Crosby in McDavid and has the results to back it up to this point, it's a no brainer. It's also not like Stepan is surrounded by elite talent either- even if we had that ace, the team as-is really just doesn't have the signs of a winner. In 11-12, we worked and hussled our way to first place and the ECF's because of team heart and character, not talent, or anything close to what a guy like Stepan could offer even in the future.

Management obviously wants to go in a different direction now, since they picked Rick Nash over Duby and Prust, and that's fine. But in that kind of system, Stepan is not going to be a guy that brings us to the promised land, at least without a serious injection of elite talent, imo, some of which could make Stepan himself expendable. Sorry for the rant to anyone who read this far.

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09-11-2013, 04:44 AM
  #681
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Originally Posted by darko View Post
Only a matter of time before people start turning on Stepan in masses. (cough 'Dubinsky' cough)

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This franchise has terrible centers. First Boyle is the bum and the whipping boy. Then Richards. Now step. Brassard is next.

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09-11-2013, 08:23 AM
  #682
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Originally Posted by PIM View Post
Well to an extent, sure. He's not Stamkos, he's not Tavares, he's not Crosby, and although it's a bit early to hedge bets, I'd say he's not McDavid either. I am a Stepan fan, so don't take this the wrong way, but a player of his caliber is not the type of guy you build a team around. He's solid defensively and he makes smart plays, but he doesn't make an abundance of brilliant plays like those truly elite talents do. His skating and lack of toughness is a concern, as it is with Tavares, but Step also doesn't have JT's ridiculous combination of hockey IQ and execution.

I think Step's a great player, but when or if it came down to a kid that's called the next Crosby in McDavid and has the results to back it up to this point, it's a no brainer. It's also not like Stepan is surrounded by elite talent either- even if we had that ace, the team as-is really just doesn't have the signs of a winner. In 11-12, we worked and hussled our way to first place and the ECF's because of team heart and character, not talent, or anything close to what a guy like Stepan could offer even in the future.

Management obviously wants to go in a different direction now, since they picked Rick Nash over Duby and Prust, and that's fine. But in that kind of system, Stepan is not going to be a guy that brings us to the promised land, at least without a serious injection of elite talent, imo, some of which could make Stepan himself expendable. Sorry for the rant to anyone who read this far.
I'm just going to agree to disagree regarding Stepan. You're entitled to your opinion of course, but that's not really the point. The Rangers are a win now team, so Stepan is exponentially more valuable than the chance that they could get a pick that would end up being McDavid two years from now. This is not a rebuilding team. Would McDavid be a nice addition? Sure, but he's not helping any team for at least two years. Who really knows what the team is going to look like by then?

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09-11-2013, 09:01 AM
  #683
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Quote:
Originally Posted by darko View Post
Only a matter of time before people start turning on Stepan in masses. (cough 'Dubinsky' cough)

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Should a player selfishly holdout and not receive backlash?

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09-11-2013, 09:16 AM
  #684
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I'm not a cap rocket scientist (as in most areas) but with the current contracts, short of a trade, isn't about the only option for cap relief to send down Aaron Johnson? Somewhere I think I read that only salaries less than a mill can be buried. Is that right or can some of the $1 million guys go too?

As a Jackets fan I wouldn't mind Stepan missing a few games but with the Rangers a fave since childhood I'd like to see him play.

I don't see how he gets any long term big $ deal so it looks like a bridge to me.

Has there been any discussion of a 1 yr deal since the Rangers have cap space galore next year? Could be risky to Stepan if gets hurt or has a bad year but lots of upside there if he has a good year.

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09-11-2013, 10:48 AM
  #685
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Originally Posted by Fire Sather View Post
Should a player selfishly holdout and not receive backlash?
He's the only one being selfish? The Rangers aren't being selfish in trying to low ball him like they do with all of their RFAs?

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09-11-2013, 11:25 AM
  #686
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Originally Posted by EspenK View Post
I'm not a cap rocket scientist (as in most areas) but with the current contracts, short of a trade, isn't about the only option for cap relief to send down Aaron Johnson? Somewhere I think I read that only salaries less than a mill can be buried. Is that right or can some of the $1 million guys go too?

As a Jackets fan I wouldn't mind Stepan missing a few games but with the Rangers a fave since childhood I'd like to see him play.

I don't see how he gets any long term big $ deal so it looks like a bridge to me.

Has there been any discussion of a 1 yr deal since the Rangers have cap space galore next year? Could be risky to Stepan if gets hurt or has a bad year but lots of upside there if he has a good year.
Sather would have lowballed Stepan anyway. In fact, the lack of cap space is leverage for Sather. If he were to trim some of the fat on the roster than the ball goes back to Stepan's court. Sather will move guys like Johnson, Pyatt, etc. after a deal is reached.

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09-11-2013, 11:38 AM
  #687
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Originally Posted by Parker MacDonald View Post
He's the only one being selfish? The Rangers aren't being selfish in trying to low ball him like they do with all of their RFAs?
Of course he is. Business is a one-way street, and the employer should always be given the benefit of the doubt.

The same goes with regard to loyalty. If a team can get better value by jettisoning someone who has been with them for years, then of course they should do it. But if a player can get a better deal elsewhere, then he's an ******* if he takes it.

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09-11-2013, 12:57 PM
  #688
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Parker MacDonald View Post
He's the only one being selfish? The Rangers aren't being selfish in trying to low ball him like they do with all of their RFAs?
Low ball how? He isn't going to get an offersheet, isn't arb. eligible and is a RFA.

He can sit out if he wants. Hes hurting his own development and his own chances of getting big money down the line.

Just like the owners had the leverage in the lockout, the team has the leverage here. Stepan will want a paycheck eventually. He only got half last year cause the greedy players kept the lockout going for half a season.

Team has a new coach and theres a new system to learn, but its more important to Stepan that he gets another a few hundred thousand dollars. (No chance the Rangers ever up their offer by anything more than a little bit)

Rangers have the leverage and the team is always the one taking the risk when any contract is signed. Player gets paid if he busts or not.

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09-11-2013, 01:22 PM
  #689
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Kadri two-year, $5.8 million deal

Kadri just signed a two-year, $5.8 million deal. Seems like a reasonable bridge contract and Kadri is very compariable to Stepan in stats and years. Hopefully this helps get his numbers done.

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09-11-2013, 01:29 PM
  #690
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Well to an extent, sure. He's not Stamkos, he's not Tavares, he's not Crosby, and although it's a bit early to hedge bets, I'd say he's not McDavid either. I am a Stepan fan, so don't take this the wrong way, but a player of his caliber is not the type of guy you build a team around. He's solid defensively and he makes smart plays, but he doesn't make an abundance of brilliant plays like those truly elite talents do. His skating and lack of toughness is a concern, as it is with Tavares, but Step also doesn't have JT's ridiculous combination of hockey IQ and execution.

I think Step's a great player, but when or if it came down to a kid that's called the next Crosby in McDavid and has the results to back it up to this point, it's a no brainer. It's also not like Stepan is surrounded by elite talent either- even if we had that ace, the team as-is really just doesn't have the signs of a winner. In 11-12, we worked and hussled our way to first place and the ECF's because of team heart and character, not talent, or anything close to what a guy like Stepan could offer even in the future.

Management obviously wants to go in a different direction now, since they picked Rick Nash over Duby and Prust, and that's fine. But in that kind of system, Stepan is not going to be a guy that brings us to the promised land, at least without a serious injection of elite talent, imo, some of which could make Stepan himself expendable. Sorry for the rant to anyone who read this far.
This is a terrific post, right on the money as it relates to Stepan. The problem a lot of fans of any team have is looking at their own players objectively enough in determining their realistic upside.
That being said, Stepan has carved out a really nice start to his career in 3 years but I wouldn't read too much into his terrific production in a strike shortened 48 game season last year by declaring him a legitimate 1st line center capable of producing 75-80 point seasons going forward.

As far as I'm concerned, the one thing the management of the Rangers does right is offer bridge deals to players who have no arbitration rights. Stepan needs to come to his senses, accept a 2 year deal and go about the business of proving that last year's numbers weren't an aberration and that he can be the guy going forward.

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09-11-2013, 01:46 PM
  #691
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Originally Posted by Parker MacDonald View Post
He's the only one being selfish? The Rangers aren't being selfish in trying to low ball him like they do with all of their RFAs?
Lowballing? Stepan is a RFA, he can't get market rates by definition, this is part of the CBA. The Rangers have to work within the confines of the salary cap if they want to have a complete team on the ice.

Complaining that Stepan isn't getting a windfall at this stage of his career is like sabotaging your own team

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09-11-2013, 01:51 PM
  #692
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If it is just business and leverage like so many seem to think, it works both ways, right? I mean if Stepan uses his leverage to sign an offer sheet and it ends up putting the Rangers in a tough situation, it's not his fault, it's just business.

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09-11-2013, 02:04 PM
  #693
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If it is just business and leverage like so many seem to think, it works both ways, right? I mean if Stepan uses his leverage to sign an offer sheet and it ends up putting the Rangers in a tough situation, it's not his fault, it's just business.
I doubt Stepan will get offer sheeted for some ridiculous amount of money that he would be hard pressed to live up to! If that happened, I would take the draft picks and run.

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09-11-2013, 04:04 PM
  #694
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Originally Posted by Fire Sather View Post
Low ball how? He isn't going to get an offersheet, isn't arb. eligible and is a RFA.

He can sit out if he wants. Hes hurting his own development and his own chances of getting big money down the line.

Just like the owners had the leverage in the lockout, the team has the leverage here. Stepan will want a paycheck eventually. He only got half last year cause the greedy players kept the lockout going for half a season.

Team has a new coach and theres a new system to learn, but its more important to Stepan that he gets another a few hundred thousand dollars. (No chance the Rangers ever up their offer by anything more than a little bit)

Rangers have the leverage and the team is always the one taking the risk when any contract is signed. Player gets paid if he busts or not.
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Lowballing? Stepan is a RFA, he can't get market rates by definition, this is part of the CBA. The Rangers have to work within the confines of the salary cap if they want to have a complete team on the ice.

Complaining that Stepan isn't getting a windfall at this stage of his career is like sabotaging your own team
For arguments sake, let's say the Rangers were offering Stepan minimum wage. That won't be low balling, because he has no leverage?

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09-11-2013, 04:08 PM
  #695
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For arguments sake, let's say the Rangers were offering Stepan minimum wage. That won't be low balling, because he has no leverage?
How is minimum wage "working within the confines of the salary cap" if they can offer something much more reasonable than rookie wages? That would really be lowballing. Rangers are offering a fair contract

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09-11-2013, 04:12 PM
  #696
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This is a terrific post, right on the money as it relates to Stepan. The problem a lot of fans of any team have is looking at their own players objectively enough in determining their realistic upside.
That being said, Stepan has carved out a really nice start to his career in 3 years but I wouldn't read too much into his terrific production in a strike shortened 48 game season last year by declaring him a legitimate 1st line center capable of producing 75-80 point seasons going forward.
Yeah, I've been a Rangers fan for a long time and looking at your players objectively is a necessary skill. I agree that Stepan is a very good hockey player and he seems like a good character guy in the room, but nothing about him suggests that he's a career PPG player. Last year was half a season. Prior to that, he was under .6 PPG. Not bad at all, but a far cry from a centerpiece type that you build around. It would be great if he became that guy, but he hasn't proven that he is.
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As far as I'm concerned, the one thing the management of the Rangers does right is offer bridge deals to players who have no arbitration rights. Stepan needs to come to his senses, accept a 2 year deal and go about the business of proving that last year's numbers weren't an aberration and that he can be the guy going forward.
Completely agree.

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09-11-2013, 04:15 PM
  #697
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How is minimum wage "working within the confines of the salary cap" if they can offer something much more reasonable than rookie wages? That would really be lowballing. Rangers are offering a fair contract
What are they offering? I haven't seen a thing.

Recently, almost every time the Rangers sign one of their RFAs, everyone gets shocked and says what a steal it was. Look at the other contracts RFAs signed around the league. They seem to be making more, which either means that almost every team is stupid or the Rangers like to suck every cent they can out of their RFAs. I really think it's a mix of both.

Also, other teams seem to be signing longer contracts and not these bridge deals, which Stepan might not want. They could both be on two completely different pages.

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09-11-2013, 04:19 PM
  #698
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What are they offering? I haven't seen a thing.
Brooksie said $2.75-3M

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Look at the other contracts RFAs signed around the league. They seem to be making more
Which ones?

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Also, other teams seem to be signing longer contracts and not these bridge deals, which Stepan might not want. They could both be on two completely different pages.
That's definitely it. Stepan's not being unreasonable in wanting a long-term deal, but I can't see him winning this one.

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09-11-2013, 04:33 PM
  #699
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What are they offering? I haven't seen a thing.

Recently, almost every time the Rangers sign one of their RFAs, everyone gets shocked and says what a steal it was. Look at the other contracts RFAs signed around the league. They seem to be making more, which either means that almost every team is stupid or the Rangers like to suck every cent they can out of their RFAs. I really think it's a mix of both.

Also, other teams seem to be signing longer contracts and not these bridge deals, which Stepan might not want. They could both be on two completely different pages.
Of course an RFA contract is a steal, it's not a market contract - duh

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09-11-2013, 04:37 PM
  #700
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Brooksie said $2.75-3M
Stepan should make either less than or only $100,000 more than Kadri?

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Which ones?
The ones that are not on bridge deals.

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