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ESPN top 100 prospects (paywall)

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Old
09-11-2013, 11:38 PM
  #76
um
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Price Puff View Post
I can't post the whole list but some of the rankings caught my eye, Kuznetsov over Nichushkin, Grigorenko top 10 and Trouba over Rielly.

http://insider.espn.go.com/nhl/story...spects-2013-14
so? thats quite normal.

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Old
09-11-2013, 11:44 PM
  #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Price Puff View Post
I can't post the whole list but some of the rankings caught my eye, Kuznetsov over Nichushkin, Grigorenko top 10 and Trouba over Rielly.

http://insider.espn.go.com/nhl/story...spects-2013-14
Quote:
Originally Posted by Magnificent66 View Post
Where was Trouba?
Don't know his ranking, but he's probably overrated by Pronman, because he reads HF Boards and everyone here overrates Trouba.

Here's the hyperbole from Pronman in his most recent assessment of Trouba (http://www.hockeyprospectus.com/arti...articleid=1568):

Quote:
The Good: You could write just one word in this section, "everything," and it would be pretty close to accurate. Trouba is an exceptional talent who defends very well while also providing offense. He has high-end skating ability, with great mobility, power from his legs, and speed. He also plays a very physical brand of hockey, laying out big hits and showing good competitiveness in battles. Trouba closes gaps well, makes a lot of stops, and can transition the puck out after creating a turnover. He has above-average offensive instincts as a puck mover to combine with a bomb from the point. Trouba's offensive game is an element that really started to flourish last season.

Projection: He could be an All-Star defenseman.

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Old
09-11-2013, 11:44 PM
  #78
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Question for you Corey, I've read that you use input from other scouts a lot when making your rankings, which makes sense. How much influence do you think that has on your list compared to your own personal viewings? Any prospects who you're ranking mostly on second hand info (I think Tanev was one last year). Thanks!

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Old
09-11-2013, 11:49 PM
  #79
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The same ESPN that just said Pittsburgh has a top ten blue line?

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Old
09-12-2013, 12:21 AM
  #80
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Uh oh, ESPN writing about hockey. This can't be good.

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Old
09-12-2013, 01:55 AM
  #81
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Could someone write the full list here? there are people, that don't have this "insider account".

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09-12-2013, 02:01 AM
  #82
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Is someone going to post the list for everyone without insider or ????

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Old
09-12-2013, 03:01 AM
  #83
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HFboards will not allow users to post the full list from behind a paywall. It's not going to happen. If it does, it will be promptly deleted and the user will be infracted. If you want to try it, go for it. But know it won't stay up. You can find it with google if you know what you're searching for.

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Old
09-12-2013, 03:31 AM
  #84
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Interesting to see Karlsson so high for Anaheim, seems to confirm guy has improved a ton since his draft year

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09-12-2013, 04:24 AM
  #85
Socratic Method Man
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wisp View Post
Pronman has his own draft board and he sticks to it. I appreciate that sort of consistency and ownership. If you're confident in your work and process, you don't second guess it by flip flopping.that also means having the balls so say so when you think an NHL team is wrong.

No hockey has been played since the draft, so nothing happened to merit changing rankings.
No, you don't understand. Shinkaruk was drafted by... well... you know. So from the time he was drafted until now we've collectively realized how much he actually sucks!

It's not like he was a good prospect before the draft anyways - everyone knew he would be a bust and be lucky to be drafted in the first 5 rounds. Everyone knew that.

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09-12-2013, 06:41 AM
  #86
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How many Islanders prospect are on that list please?

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Old
09-12-2013, 07:01 AM
  #87
Corey Pronman
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vagrant View Post
The exclusion of Curtis Lazar makes this list odd at absolute best. Far too heavily geared towards '13 prospects with a few downright head scratching omissions.
He's mentioned.

Quote:
Originally Posted by StringerBell View Post
Question for you Corey, I've read that you use input from other scouts a lot when making your rankings, which makes sense. How much influence do you think that has on your list compared to your own personal viewings? Any prospects who you're ranking mostly on second hand info (I think Tanev was one last year). Thanks!
The scouting based information I get from talking to scouts is very important. First hand evaluations from guys who watch a player upwards of 20 times in a season is extremely valuable. However due to the subjective nature of scouting, everyone in the business can take the very same evaluation data, and weigh the particulars of it differently. This is why you can go around a room of scouts who have evaluated draft prospect X almost identically, but one has him 15th, another 25th, another 50th.

Thus I talk to scouts for information, but the ranking process is done solely on my own. I'm pretty confident in my info and process, although in terms of less confidence, the players over in Europe will always be a bit of a challenge to get viewings so I lean on some overseas sources. Klefbom and Jarnkrok are good examples.

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Old
09-12-2013, 07:28 AM
  #88
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my buddy showed me the list.

So now William Karlsson is better then a kid like Tom Wilson, who isnt even on it?

This list is a joke, its embarrassing.

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Old
09-12-2013, 07:36 AM
  #89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Corey Pronman View Post

The scouting based information I get from talking to scouts is very important. First hand evaluations from guys who watch a player upwards of 20 times in a season is extremely valuable. However due to the subjective nature of scouting, everyone in the business can take the very same evaluation data, and weigh the particulars of it differently. This is why you can go around a room of scouts who have evaluated draft prospect X almost identically, but one has him 15th, another 25th, another 50th.
I give you props for the hard work, but i would strongly re-consider what scouts you're talking to because it sounds and seems like a lot of them are not giving you very good information.

The fact that Clenending, Petrovic, Lazar and Wilson are not on the list, a top 100 prospects list, is pretty bad. 2 of the following could make their opening night rosters (yet somehow that doesnt qualify them as a top 100 prospect? I cannot see how players could be better then those making the leap), one could push for call up duty while the other was a recently top 20 draft pick.

Again, props on the list but there probably should have been more collaboration with more scouts. I mean, personally, i showed 4 people the list who know prospects and we all had the same response. And it seems most of the people here would agree.

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Old
09-12-2013, 07:37 AM
  #90
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Drouin at #1 is not ridiculous at all. Anyone who has truly watched him play enough knows that he is by far (yes by far) the most offensively skilled up and comer in hockey excluding McDavid. Nobody else comes close to those 2 guys in terms of puck skills and on ice vision, or not that I have seen at least.

Personally I would have Drouin 2nd or 3rd but he isn't out of place on top of the list at all.

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09-12-2013, 07:56 AM
  #91
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I dont have a big problem with Drouin at #1.

If you want to see a head scratcher of a list of top prospects check out Dobber Fabtasy Prospects. Of of the writers has Rattie at #1, over Mackinnon, Drouin, Jones, etc. and does not have Nichuskin at all on the list (top 50). I am all for subjective opinions but that one left me

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Old
09-12-2013, 08:03 AM
  #92
Trafalgar Law
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Can anyone tell me which Oilers were on the list?

@ Pronman, what do you see in Shinkaruk exactly? I watched him against the Oil Kings and he struck me as a soft, weak on the puck perimeter player. Based on what scouts have said, he has attitude and work ethic problems as well, which contributed to his slide down the rankings. This guy just seems like a less skilled Rob Schremp to me. Yet you have him ranked 22 when he wasn't even taken that high in the recent draft.

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09-12-2013, 08:41 AM
  #93
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zetterberg40 View Post
So now William Karlsson is better then a kid like Tom Wilson, who isnt even on it?

This list is a joke, its embarrassing.
What is the problem with having William Karlsson significantly ahead of Tom Wilson? It looks like Wilson had a good season in juniors, but Karlsson won the rookie of the year award in the Swedish Elite league playing against men. Just looking at the company that puts him in, that's certainly a more remarkable accomplishment than Wilson's respectable numbers at the junior level.

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09-12-2013, 09:01 AM
  #94
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Originally Posted by Hedman77 View Post
Kuznetsov's skill set is on par with Drouin's and he has already proven that he can play with men on a high level. He's also bigger and better skater. Only reason why I'd rather have Drouin in my team than Kuznetsov is KHL. Seriously, I can't wait to see what Drouin can do in Tampa but he's a bit overrated here.
Overated? That's your opinion and yours alone, what makes it better then NHL scouts and hockey writers alike id really like to know.

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09-12-2013, 09:10 AM
  #95
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Originally Posted by bert View Post
Overated? That's your opinion and yours alone, what makes it better then NHL scouts and hockey writers alike id really like to know.
I said bit overrated which doesn't mean that I think that he's criminally overrated like you make it sound like - I just see him as a boom or bust guy, but the potential certainly is there. People here all talking about him like he's a sure-fire elite player (note: I'm not talking only about this thread but HFBoards generally) that's why I think he's a bit overrated. But I guess then because I'm not a NHL scout or a hockey writer I can't tell my opinion here.

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09-12-2013, 09:17 AM
  #96
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Originally Posted by xIsle View Post
How many Islanders prospect are on that list please?
Five. Strome, Pulock, Reinhart, Nelson, de Haan.





Fellow Canucks fans, we had 4. Shinkaruk, Horvat, Corrado, Jensen.

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09-12-2013, 09:33 AM
  #97
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Originally Posted by Trafalgar Law View Post
Can anyone tell me which Oilers were on the list?

@ Pronman, what do you see in Shinkaruk exactly? I watched him against the Oil Kings and he struck me as a soft, weak on the puck perimeter player. Based on what scouts have said, he has attitude and work ethic problems as well, which contributed to his slide down the rankings. This guy just seems like a less skilled Rob Schremp to me. Yet you have him ranked 22 when he wasn't even taken that high in the recent draft.
So you saw him one time against a top 4 team in all of the CHL (probably the best defensive team), where he was on the only line that needed to be keyed on and that was enough for you to conclude that?

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09-12-2013, 09:35 AM
  #98
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wisp View Post
Five. Strome, Pulock, Reinhart, Nelson, de Haan.





Fellow Canucks fans, we had 4. Shinkaruk, Horvat, Corrado, Jensen.
Do you mind helping a Leafs fan with who's on the list.

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Old
09-12-2013, 09:35 AM
  #99
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Originally Posted by tsujimoto74 View Post
#48 -- Nathan Beaulieu
#89 -- Artturi Lehkonen
#90 -- Sebastian Collberg
#95 -- Jacob de la Rose
Do they not consider Tinordi a prospect anymore?

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Old
09-12-2013, 09:38 AM
  #100
Corey Pronman
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Originally Posted by zetterberg40 View Post
I give you props for the hard work, but i would strongly re-consider what scouts you're talking to because it sounds and seems like a lot of them are not giving you very good information.

The fact that Clenending, Petrovic, Lazar and Wilson are not on the list, a top 100 prospects list, is pretty bad. 2 of the following could make their opening night rosters (yet somehow that doesnt qualify them as a top 100 prospect? I cannot see how players could be better then those making the leap), one could push for call up duty while the other was a recently top 20 draft pick.

Again, props on the list but there probably should have been more collaboration with more scouts. I mean, personally, i showed 4 people the list who know prospects and we all had the same response. And it seems most of the people here would agree.
I'm not sure how you can judge the information I'm using when outside the top 25 profiles no information was provided. Ranking and information gathering are two separate processes.

Clendening, Petrovic and Lazar are all mentioned in the column.

I don't think Petrovic and Wilson being close to or at NHL ready is an argument they must be locks as Top 100 prospects. Korbianian Holzer may be in the NHL as well but he's not a top 250 prospect to me. That is an argument for the prospects, if not a strong argument in regards to their physical strength and game processing skills being advanced enough to make that jump but it is not all encompassing enough to ignore the other critical parts of talent and player evaluations. Post-draft rankings are a mix of potential and probability and the respective weights you put on both. I have my own philosophy on that matter and it shows in my work that I lean (but not tilt) towards upside.

If you want to go down the list, argue skill by skill, why player X should not be ranked ahead of player Y I'll gladly do so, but TBH in these lists there's such a small grouping between like 60 and 150 that there's so many reasonable arguments to be made for who should be included.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Trafalgar Law View Post
Can anyone tell me which Oilers were on the list?

@ Pronman, what do you see in Shinkaruk exactly? I watched him against the Oil Kings and he struck me as a soft, weak on the puck perimeter player. Based on what scouts have said, he has attitude and work ethic problems as well, which contributed to his slide down the rankings. This guy just seems like a less skilled Rob Schremp to me. Yet you have him ranked 22 when he wasn't even taken that high in the recent draft.
My write-up on Shinkaruk is here from the draft:

http://www.hockeyprospectus.com/arti...articleid=1520

I agree his physical game and two-way game isn't the best and was an issue I heard being mentioned by several scouts going into the draft. I don't agree on attitude and work ethic. He's a dynamic, high-end offensive talent and his top-tier tools and ability to create a large number of scoring chances are very appealing to me.

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