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So what will our Top 6 be this season?

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Old
09-12-2013, 03:57 PM
  #76
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hawkaholic View Post
He's a top 6 guy in the AHL, no reason to believe yet that he can handle top 6 in the NHL.
We're not going to know unless Quenneville at least tries him.

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09-12-2013, 04:08 PM
  #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hawkaholic View Post
He's a top 6 guy in the AHL, no reason to believe yet that he can handle top 6 in the NHL.
Let's be honest - there's not enough information to make any sort of evaluation at all, positive or negative.

IMO - Pirri's done enough to deserve a chance playing with other skill players. If he bombs, he bombs, but with this roster it's seems like a perfect set of circumstances to at least give him a chance to show what he can do.

Not comparing Pirri to Mark Savard from a skill or talent perspective, but the Flames never gave him a chance to show what he could do, and traded him without giving him a chance. It just seems like a similar situation to the direction that Pirri appears to be going with the Hawks.

I also don't understand why you would move Saad (or any young guy) out of position before looking at your other internal options. Just seems like desperation move and Q publically telling S-bow (and the team) that he's not going to even give Pirri a reasonable shot at the 2nd line center role. I really like Saad's game, and think he's got the skillset and ability to play center, but why take a 20-21 YO kid out of his comfort zone and put that much more on his plate? I'd rather have Saad keep his game simple and work hard to avoid the sophomore slump. Heck - Q isn't saying that Hossa should play center, and he's got a big body and is very defensively responsible.


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09-12-2013, 04:25 PM
  #78
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The problem is that for every Marc Savard, there's 20 Martin St. Pierres

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09-12-2013, 04:53 PM
  #79
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This pains me to say it, but I hope Pirri is traded to a team where he can get a chance to prove himself.

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09-12-2013, 05:27 PM
  #80
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Originally Posted by Teemu View Post
The problem is that for every Marc Savard, there's 20 Martin St. Pierres
While I agree on the potential likelyhood of Savard vs. bust, there is a really easy solution that costs the organization almost nothing. And that is give the kid a chance before giving him away in a trade for effectively nothing (which is what Pirri would likely return in a trade IMO). IMO, the underlying issue is that this requires the GM to have enough credibility within the organization to ask/tell the coach to give him a legit shot at making the roster. You would think that SBow had that much organization "pull", but I wouldn't assume that.

And while the Savard vs. St. Pierre analogy is apt, there are a lot of guys who get traded without getting a chance that go on to burn their old organization. Even thinking of a guys like Sharp or Versteeg for the Hawks. They were seen as limited players by their previous organizations, and both really blossomed when given a chance to play with skilled linemates.

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09-12-2013, 05:47 PM
  #81
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Originally Posted by RedBaronIndian View Post
This pains me to say it, but I hope Pirri is traded to a team where he can get a chance to prove himself.
That's how I'm starting to feel, too...

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09-12-2013, 05:54 PM
  #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beukeboom Fan View Post
While I agree on the potential likelyhood of Savard vs. bust, there is a really easy solution that costs the organization almost nothing. And that is give the kid a chance before giving him away in a trade for effectively nothing (which is what Pirri would likely return in a trade IMO). IMO, the underlying issue is that this requires the GM to have enough credibility within the organization to ask/tell the coach to give him a legit shot at making the roster. You would think that SBow had that much organization "pull", but I wouldn't assume that.
Yeah, you would hope the organization realizes that they aren't going to win the Cup in October-December and that it's probably the right idea to give him 15-20 whatever games at the 2C to figure out what you're actually working with.

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09-12-2013, 08:28 PM
  #83
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I like Pirri and think he's earned a spot on the Hawks, but that doesn't mean I believe that he's the defacto #2 center. If Saad plays better than him overall he should play. If Pirri hasn't learned to solidify his defensive game somewhat the past two years in Rockford he doesn't deserve to center Hossa and Sharp.

The Hawks have a ton a prospects who are just as capable as Pirri. I hope Pirri makes the team, because he's probably done as much as he can with Rockford, but he still needs to improve to be a full time NHL player.

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09-12-2013, 10:12 PM
  #84
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Originally Posted by topnotch View Post
I like Pirri and think he's earned a spot on the Hawks, but that doesn't mean I believe that he's the defacto #2 center. If Saad plays better than him overall he should play. If Pirri hasn't learned to solidify his defensive game somewhat the past two years in Rockford he doesn't deserve to center Hossa and Sharp.

The Hawks have a ton a prospects who are just as capable as Pirri. I hope Pirri makes the team, because he's probably done as much as he can with Rockford, but he still needs to improve to be a full time NHL player.
Definitely agree. If Saad comes in and just destroys at C (which is almost ludicrious to even type) - I could very easily see sticking Pirri at #3C at #3 w/ Shaw & Morin on the wing. Line would be potentially challenged defensively, but enough talent that Pirri could still contribute offensively.

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09-13-2013, 01:43 AM
  #85
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Originally Posted by Beukeboom Fan View Post
Definitely agree. If Saad comes in and just destroys at C (which is almost ludicrious to even type) - I could very easily see sticking Pirri at #3C at #3 w/ Shaw & Morin on the wing. Line would be potentially challenged defensively, but enough talent that Pirri could still contribute offensively.
I agree.

I also feel that while Pirri should never have been gifted the job, I have a problem with Saad, who has never played C a day in his life, being, as it seems, handed the job himself.

I really hope Q is being smart - because I have a real problem if he just wants to flip off Bowman.

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09-13-2013, 03:04 AM
  #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hawkaholic View Post
He's a top 6 guy in the AHL, no reason to believe yet that he can handle top 6 in the NHL.
He led the AHL in scoring. He isn't a top six guy in that league, he's THE GUY.

And there's plenty of reason to believe he could handle a top six role in the NHL. Leading the league directly below the NHL in scoring is one of them. Is it a certainty? Heavens no. But to compare his ability to stick in the NHL in a top six role with a guy like LeBlanc? Laughable.

He's proven far more then his detractors are willing to admit. The fact that he's not been given a real chance to date and the fact that we are prepared to play sophmore's out of position shows just how inflexible the current governing body is.

Mark Bell was pigeon holed as a center at one point because the team needed a second line center. If the team had a player with the upside and pedigree of Pirri it wouldn't have happened. Why we would threaten the progression of Saad, a kid with legitimate all-star potential by thrusting him into a position he's not comfortable with is beyond me.

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09-13-2013, 03:13 AM
  #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DisgruntledHawkFan View Post
He led the AHL in scoring. He isn't a top six guy in that league, he's THE GUY.

And there's plenty of reason to believe he could handle a top six role in the NHL. Leading the league directly below the NHL in scoring is one of them. Is it a certainty? Heavens no. But to compare his ability to stick in the NHL in a top six role with a guy like LeBlanc? Laughable.

He's proven far more then his detractors are willing to admit. The fact that he's not been given a real chance to date and the fact that we are prepared to play sophmore's out of position shows just how inflexible the current governing body is.

Mark Bell was pigeon holed as a center at one point because the team needed a second line center. If the team had a player with the upside and pedigree of Pirri it wouldn't have happened. Why we would threaten the progression of Saad, a kid with legitimate all-star potential by thrusting him into a position he's not comfortable with is beyond me.
what do you mean by "governing body"? Bowman wanted him to have a chance, apparently. Who, except for Q, do you think is part of the "inflexible governing body"?

I like Saad a lot - to the extent I don't love the idea that Bickell, because of his ill-advised contract, is now gifted a top 6 role (because of his brilliant playoffs, but let's ignore the SCF round)...but I also don't like the idea that Brandon "never played centre before in his life" Saad is now penciled in as 2c and Pirri is ditched.

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09-13-2013, 03:17 AM
  #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DisgruntledHawkFan View Post
He led the AHL in scoring. He isn't a top six guy in that league, he's THE GUY.

And there's plenty of reason to believe he could handle a top six role in the NHL. Leading the league directly below the NHL in scoring is one of them. Is it a certainty? Heavens no. But to compare his ability to stick in the NHL in a top six role with a guy like LeBlanc? Laughable.

He's proven far more then his detractors are willing to admit. The fact that he's not been given a real chance to date and the fact that we are prepared to play sophmore's out of position shows just how inflexible the current governing body is.

Mark Bell was pigeon holed as a center at one point because the team needed a second line center. If the team had a player with the upside and pedigree of Pirri it wouldn't have happened. Why we would threaten the progression of Saad, a kid with legitimate all-star potential by thrusting him into a position he's not comfortable with is beyond me.
The guy had a worse PPG than Mike Kostka in the AHL. He wasn't THE GUY, he was the guy who got lucky all the guys who score better than him had to go play on the real teams. Everyone makes it out like he ran away with the scoring title, he didn't. When the lockout was going on, he had 23 pts in 33 games. He didn't take off until all the NHL caliber players left, really until the last month when his team was pretty much eliminated. So even if he scores at that pace (against much, much stronger competition) he gets 50 points and is nowhere near what Q's system wants/demands from a center inside his own blueline. The games count for just as much in October as they do in March, and with the likely fatigue that's going to hit this team from having so little time off, there is a need to stockpile points as early as possible. Since making the playoffs in 09, the Hawks haven't lost a series where they had home ice, so I'd like for them to win as many games as possible to guarantee as many home ice series as they can get

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09-13-2013, 04:12 AM
  #89
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Starting to think it will be:

Bickell-Toews-Kane
Sharp-SAAD-Hossa

There's no other reason for Coach Q to be trying out Saad at C in training camp than to give him a shot there because he doesn't trust Pirri there.

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09-13-2013, 06:47 AM
  #90
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you know that Saad said he never played as C while Q thought he did

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09-13-2013, 07:26 AM
  #91
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Originally Posted by Bubba88 View Post
you know that Saad said he never played as C while Q thought he did
Players go from centre to wing all the time. I'm trying to think of one guy who made a successful transition to centre after having been a winger in the minors and I can't think of one. Does anyone out there have a strong example?

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09-13-2013, 08:50 AM
  #92
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DisgruntledHawkFan View Post
He led the AHL in scoring. He isn't a top six guy in that league, he's THE GUY.

And there's plenty of reason to believe he could handle a top six role in the NHL. Leading the league directly below the NHL in scoring is one of them. Is it a certainty? Heavens no. But to compare his ability to stick in the NHL in a top six role with a guy like LeBlanc? Laughable.
He isn't THE guy in the AHL, there were plenty of better players in the AHL, scoring isn't everything. There is reason to believe he COULD be a top 6 guy in the bigs, same could be said for 100 other players in the AHL. Leading the AHL in scoring means squat when it comes to the NHL, it doesn't always translate.

He shouldn't be given anything, he shouldn't be demanded respect. He should earn the position by vastly out playing his competition in pre-season. He will get respect when he shows he can handle it, and he will get his chance. The guy isn't entitled to anything.

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09-13-2013, 09:39 AM
  #93
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hawkaholic View Post
He isn't THE guy in the AHL, there were plenty of better players in the AHL, scoring isn't everything. There is reason to believe he COULD be a top 6 guy in the bigs, same could be said for 100 other players in the AHL. Leading the AHL in scoring means squat when it comes to the NHL, it doesn't always translate.

He shouldn't be given anything, he shouldn't be demanded respect. He should earn the position by vastly out playing his competition in pre-season. He will get respect when he shows he can handle it, and he will get his chance. The guy isn't entitled to anything.
Again, I never said leading the AHL in scoring is a guarantee that he'll have success in the NHL. But to say he's done nothing to prove he deserves a shot is flat out wrong. I'm not saying he should be handed a spot in our top six. I'm saying he should be given an opportunity, and Q seems to have his mind made up that Pirri won't.

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09-13-2013, 10:07 AM
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Originally Posted by DisgruntledHawkFan View Post
Again, I never said leading the AHL in scoring is a guarantee that he'll have success in the NHL. But to say he's done nothing to prove he deserves a shot is flat out wrong. I'm not saying he should be handed a spot in our top six. I'm saying he should be given an opportunity, and Q seems to have his mind made up that Pirri won't.
And I never said he hasn't done anything to prove he deserves a chance. Just seems like people want to give him the #2C spot just because he had a bunch of points in the AHL last year.

And again, Q is probably looking for Pirri to outplay his competition in the pre-season, doesn't mean he has to do it from the #2C position, he could do it by playing 3rd line or 4th line. Prove it on those lines before you move up to the #2C spot. Show Q your defense has improved. I'm sure Q could careless what he can do offensively at this point, we don't need offensive players.

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09-13-2013, 10:12 AM
  #95
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what do you mean by "governing body"? Bowman wanted him to have a chance, apparently. Who, except for Q, do you think is part of the "inflexible governing body"?

I like Saad a lot - to the extent I don't love the idea that Bickell, because of his ill-advised contract, is now gifted a top 6 role (because of his brilliant playoffs, but let's ignore the SCF round)...but I also don't like the idea that Brandon "never played centre before in his life" Saad is now penciled in as 2c and Pirri is ditched.
I don't understand how you think Bickell is being gifted a top 6 role. Do you watch this team?

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09-13-2013, 10:14 AM
  #96
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Originally Posted by DisgruntledHawkFan View Post
Again, I never said leading the AHL in scoring is a guarantee that he'll have success in the NHL. But to say he's done nothing to prove he deserves a shot is flat out wrong. I'm not saying he should be handed a spot in our top six. I'm saying he should be given an opportunity, and Q seems to have his mind made up that Pirri won't.
Why is everyone assuming Pirri won't be given a crack at making the team? All because they are going to give Saad a shot at it too? Why don't we let training camp play itself out and then see where things stand.

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09-13-2013, 10:25 AM
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Originally Posted by Hawkaholic View Post
And I never said he hasn't done anything to prove he deserves a chance. Just seems like people want to give him the #2C spot just because he had a bunch of points in the AHL last year.

And again, Q is probably looking for Pirri to outplay his competition in the pre-season, doesn't mean he has to do it from the #2C position, he could do it by playing 3rd line or 4th line. Prove it on those lines before you move up to the #2C spot. Show Q your defense has improved. I'm sure Q could careless what he can do offensively at this point, we don't need offensive players.
Sure, on a team like ours offense isn't a premium. To say we shouldn't look for more is flat out lunacy. We scored enough to win the cup. It'd be easier to win another one if we score more. I don't think Pirri is anywhere near the liability you do. If he is, I'd have no problem with sending him down.

My whole issue is that Pirri isn't getting and won't be given a fair look. I said it the second Handzus put a pen to his extension.

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09-13-2013, 10:29 AM
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Originally Posted by Sarava View Post
Why is everyone assuming Pirri won't be given a crack at making the team? All because they are going to give Saad a shot at it too? Why don't we let training camp play itself out and then see where things stand.
Because Quenneville is running things. HOF coach that has delivered us two cups. Certainly not a coach without flaws.

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09-13-2013, 12:35 PM
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The problem is that for every Marc Savard, there's 20 Martin St. Pierres
Never gonna know what you got if you never let the guy prove himself

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09-13-2013, 01:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DisgruntledHawkFan View Post
Sure, on a team like ours offense isn't a premium. To say we shouldn't look for more is flat out lunacy. We scored enough to win the cup. It'd be easier to win another one if we score more. I don't think Pirri is anywhere near the liability you do. If he is, I'd have no problem with sending him down.

My whole issue is that Pirri isn't getting and won't be given a fair look. I said it the second Handzus put a pen to his extension.
Point me to where I said he shouldn't be given a look?

And Q never said he wouldn't be given a look either. It's Day 2 or 3 of camp, give it time. There are still some pre-season games to be played.

Just because Q thinks he has a more reliable and bigger player trying for the #2 spot, doesn't mean Pirri can't make it as #3C or W or even show more than Saad as #2C.

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