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01-13-2004, 08:37 AM
  #1
SIM_C
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Bergeron

Why is this kid not with the big club? Every Oiler game i've seen, he's always generated offense!

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01-13-2004, 08:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SIM_C
Why is this kid not with the big club? Every Oiler game i've seen, he's always generated offense!
He is with the big club...

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01-13-2004, 11:14 AM
  #3
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1. turnovers
2. size
3. politics

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01-13-2004, 12:09 PM
  #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SIM_C
Why is this kid not with the big club? Every Oiler game i've seen, he's always generated offense!
I will be very surprised if you see him in an Oilers uniform again this year. As soon as Smith is back MAB will be shipped to the RR.

 
Old
01-13-2004, 02:06 PM
  #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SIM_C
Why is this kid not with the big club? Every Oiler game i've seen, he's always generated offense!
Yah for both teams...

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01-13-2004, 02:21 PM
  #6
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OK, this has got to a point where it is pissing me off...The reason he is not playing is probally 80% politics...If he wasnt labelled as "poor definsivley" then there would not be near as many people dogging him on his definsive play. I am definatly not saying that he doesnt make bad definsive plays, but since he has a reputation, people watch for that mistake...Now comparred to if it was Brewer who made the poor definsive play, people generally just say "oh, it wont happen again" and then it does and people dont say anything further...Bergeron does not get near enough credit for the offence he provides. Considering how many 1 goal games we have lost....

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01-13-2004, 02:25 PM
  #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LoudmouthHemskyfan#2
OK, this has got to a point where it is pissing me off...The reason he is not playing is probally 80% politics...If he wasnt labelled as "poor definsivley" then there would not be near as many people dogging him on his definsive play. I am definatly not saying that he doesnt make bad definsive plays, but since he has a reputation, people watch for that mistake...Now comparred to if it was Brewer who made the poor definsive play, people generally just say "oh, it wont happen again" and then it does and people dont say anything further...Bergeron does not get near enough credit for the offence he provides. Considering how many 1 goal games we have lost....
Do you not remember the verbal beating that was being dished out to Brewer earlier this season?

Bergeron may provide offense, but everyone of his turnovers is costly. Not necessarily resulting in goals, but time and wasted offensive opportunity. Everytime he turns that puck over, it automatically kills a potential scoring chance... it's over before it starts. And you are looking at the fact that it costs the Oilers at least 30 seconds of valuable game time everytime he turns the puck over...

And we have all seen how valuable time is for the Oilers (Minnesota).

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01-13-2004, 03:38 PM
  #8
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Bergeron is not an NHL quality defenseman yet. He is good AHL at best. He needs time. Semenov is playing too good. Once Smith is back you have:

Smith Staios
Brewer Cross
Ulanov Semenov

Spare - Fergy

Ferguson is the perfect #7. Low maintenance low cost. Let bergeron learn and come back another time.

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01-13-2004, 05:47 PM
  #9
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Relatively high scoring, stays out of the box (important when you have a brutal pk) and can make a pass...decent on the pp.

He's young (so he's automatically on MacT's craplist) and he's small (so he's on Lowe's.)

When Semenov gives the puck away in front of the net, it's okay, because he's big and he'll learn. When Brewer can't get a point to save his life, it's ok, because he's the second coming of Chris Pronger. I don't get it either, LMHF2.

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01-13-2004, 06:54 PM
  #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Silver
Relatively high scoring, stays out of the box (important when you have a brutal pk) and can make a pass...decent on the pp.

He's young (so he's automatically on MacT's craplist) and he's small (so he's on Lowe's.)

When Semenov gives the puck away in front of the net, it's okay, because he's big and he'll learn. When Brewer can't get a point to save his life, it's ok, because he's the second coming of Chris Pronger. I don't get it either, LMHF2.
Semenov dominated the junior leagues in scoring as a d-man and he is huge. Bergeron is small, and makes a ton of mistakes. If you think Semenov will sit in favor of Bergy you are mistaken. Alex Semenov has so much upside it is unreal and he has been playing like a top 3 d-man in the past 10 games. Bergeron makes more mistakes than good plays. Watch the games - his first passes more often than not are intercepted or deflected leading to turnovers. I like the idea of him seasoning for a few years but IMO he isn't going to amount to anything substantail - especially not with the Oilers considering Woywitka, Greene, Lynch in the wings.

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01-13-2004, 07:18 PM
  #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Walsher
Semenov dominated the junior leagues in scoring as a d-man and he is huge. Bergeron is small, and makes a ton of mistakes. If you think Semenov will sit in favor of Bergy you are mistaken. Alex Semenov has so much upside it is unreal and he has been playing like a top 3 d-man in the past 10 games. Bergeron makes more mistakes than good plays. Watch the games - his first passes more often than not are intercepted or deflected leading to turnovers. I like the idea of him seasoning for a few years but IMO he isn't going to amount to anything substantail - especially not with the Oilers considering Woywitka, Greene, Lynch in the wings.
Yeah, Semenov's been playing better lately. He's also played in 74 NHL games to Bergeron's 33. If you would have treated Semenov by your criteria, he would have been permanently packed off the AHL by now. The fact of the matter is we are sitting a defenceman who has 11 points in 28 games. I'm not arguing that you sit Semenov, but playing Ferguson ahead of Bergeron borders on ridiculous.

As far as Semenov dominating the juniors in scoring, so what. Ethan Moreau was a decent scorer in junior as well, wasn't he? That doesn't mean that he's going to turn into Cam Neely...Bergeron has already shown that he can generate some offence at the NHL level, and he's being passed over because of size. That sucks.

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01-13-2004, 07:24 PM
  #12
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PERFECT example tonight....Brewer with a huge giveaway with around 14 min left in the 2nd...it was a 2-1 hockey game then and let a panther go in alone...If that was bergeron there would be threads all over the place saying how bad of a giveaway that was....ive seen one comment on the Brewer giveaway.....

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01-13-2004, 07:59 PM
  #13
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[QUOTE=Silver] I'm not arguing that you sit Semenov, but playing Ferguson ahead of Bergeron borders on ridiculous.

What's been wrong with Ferguson's game lately? The Oiler's defense have been rock solid of late and each pairing have looked good together. So why change what has been working till Smith comes back.

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01-13-2004, 08:05 PM
  #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LoudmouthHemskyfan#2
PERFECT example tonight....Brewer with a huge giveaway with around 14 min left in the 2nd...it was a 2-1 hockey game then and let a panther go in alone...If that was bergeron there would be threads all over the place saying how bad of a giveaway that was....ive seen one comment on the Brewer giveaway.....
I hate to break it to you but I doubt that Bergeron is in the Oiler's long term plans. Semenov is one of the building blocks of this team future blueline thats why he receives a little more slack.

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01-13-2004, 09:43 PM
  #15
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[QUOTE=woody]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Silver
I'm not arguing that you sit Semenov, but playing Ferguson ahead of Bergeron borders on ridiculous.

What's been wrong with Ferguson's game lately? The Oiler's defense have been rock solid of late and each pairing have looked good together. So why change what has been working till Smith comes back.
Bergeron: 28 games, 4 goals, 7 assists, +1, 484:42 TOI, 9 minor penalties.

Ferguson: 39 games, 0 goals, 5 assists, -1, 543:26 TOI, 19 minor penalties.

Also FYI: Bergeron and Brian Rafalski have almost exactly the same ratio of points/minute of ice time. But, I'm sure Rafalski would never make it on this team, because he's not a big defenceman, AHL quality at best.

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01-13-2004, 09:54 PM
  #16
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He's also number 4 in rookie defenceman scoring, playing 28 games. Pitkanen has 15 points in 37 games, Liles has 14 in 42, and Hamhuis has 14 in 42 as well.

So, I'm going to ask again: What does Bergeron have to be to get a shot on this team? The second coming of Bobby Orr or Paul Coffey? How much do you expect him to do?

Bah! I hope he gets traded if we aren't going to use him, but I think it will bite us in the ass worse than the Whitney trade ever did.

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01-13-2004, 09:54 PM
  #17
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Walsher is right its about wasted time and opportunity.

Look at the defence corps now they are all reliable defensive d-men who play the % play not the risk play that Bergeron does. Bergeron is great when the scoring is slumping and your stuck in a rut since his high risk high reward style of game would pay off. Right now the Oilers don't need that so that is the biggest reason for him not being in the lineup. MacT feels he does not need that higher risk element on his blue line when the team is not in a scoring/bad play rut as they were when he was playing.

Give him 2 years in the AHL and he'll be ready to be a dynamite d-man in the NHL.

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Old
01-13-2004, 09:55 PM
  #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Silver
Bergeron: 28 games, 4 goals, 7 assists, +1, 484:42 TOI, 9 minor penalties.

Ferguson: 39 games, 0 goals, 5 assists, -1, 543:26 TOI, 19 minor penalties.

Also FYI: Bergeron and Brian Rafalski have almost exactly the same ratio of points/minute of ice time. But, I'm sure Rafalski would never make it on this team, because he's not a big defenceman, AHL quality at best.
Ferguson and Bergeron have different roles on the Oilers. So stats don't mean alot in comparing the two.

And you really think Bergeron is as good as Rafalski?

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01-13-2004, 09:58 PM
  #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by woody
Ferguson and Bergeron have different roles on the Oilers. So stats don't mean alot in comparing the two.

And you really think Bergeron is as good as Rafalski?
We're not going to find out with him in the pressbox or Toronto. Is he as good as Rafalski now? No...but he will be. Rafalski also took a long time to get a shot, if I recall correctly.

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01-14-2004, 09:05 AM
  #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Silver
I'm not arguing that you sit Semenov, but playing Ferguson ahead of Bergeron borders on ridiculous.
Several points:

1) Yes, you're absolutely correct. Bergeron has more talent in his pinky finger than Ferguson. I don't disagree. However as a SEVENTH defenseman, Ferguson plays that role better than Bergeron. A safe, defensive defenseman who can add some toughness into the lineup, not complain about his lack of minute or sitting out, Ferguson is perfect.

If Bergeron sits out a game, then the kid is probably wondering what did he do wrong? If Ferguson sits out a game, then the veteran understands that that is his role to provide depth to the team.

I can see Bergeron earning a 5/6 defensive spot in the future, but he needs to play and not sit in the PB. He might as well do it in the AHL because he's not going to get the time at the big league.

2) Defensive giveaways: Yes, Brewer had a horrible giveaway against FLA. He also had two assists and was generally a mean SOB on the boards. The difference between Bergeron and Brewer? Brewer plays a regular 20-28 minutes a night (more with Smith out) against the top line players and makes a defensive error or two (but lately he has been very strong). Bergeron plays a regular 12-18 minutes a night (when he is playing) against the 3rd and 4th line guys and STILL makes HORRIBLE outlet passes and giveaways. That's the difference between Brewer and Bergeron and why Bergeron is not playing.

3) Politics: Oh Please LMHF. You think that the Oilers are so laden with talent on the backend that they're sitting on this "fantastic" talent Bergeron and stopping him from playing because of politics? Face facts. If Bergeron was consistent this year, he would be playing because the Oil were desperate for defenseman who could play. He wasn't so the Oilers had to look around and picked up Ulanov who has provided a huge spark and consistency.

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01-14-2004, 09:14 AM
  #21
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Actually, regarding Bergeron's outlet passes, they're usually hit or miss. When he misses them, it usually results in a turnover...but when he hits an outlet pass, its right on the dot and usually results in a great scoring chance.

when he learns to be more consistent, he could be a valuable asset to the team. I'd rather see him learn from the PB cause he has already proven that he can play in the AHL, but he still needs to adjust to the speed of the NHL.

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01-14-2004, 09:29 AM
  #22
LoudmouthHemskyFan#2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by neogeo69
3) Politics: Oh Please LMHF. You think that the Oilers are so laden with talent on the backend that they're sitting on this "fantastic" talent Bergeron and stopping him from playing because of politics? Face facts. If Bergeron was consistent this year, he would be playing because the Oil were desperate for defenseman who could play. He wasn't so the Oilers had to look around and picked up Ulanov who has provided a huge spark and consistency.

i have NEVER said that are "so laden with talent on the backend"....If it was Ferguson with the 2 way contract and Bergeron with the 1 way...Fergie would be gone for sure...agree? Bergeron is a good young offensive defenceman who knows how to put the puck in the net...Ferguson constantly gets beat to pucks that there is no way anyone should be able to beat you to...Bergeron has 11 points already...and has not played alot...he is ahead of some of our "good" forwards in points and even has a better +/- than fergie...and the compairison to Brewer was just simply trying to prove a point that two people can do the same thing but when one guy does it, it is ok...but when someone else does it he should be shot..and also he makes some VERY good outlet passes, and yes some are bad but the good ones pay off...

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01-14-2004, 09:53 AM
  #23
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Here's the thing...look at the Oilers D once Smith comes back in a week or so:

Brewer
Smith
Semenov
Staios
Ulanov
Cross

Not a lot of room for MAB or Fergie, right? As long as Ulanov keeps up his strong play and continues to be a good influence on Semenov, that top 6 is set. So that leaves a #7 guy who'll only get a handful games barring injuries. Fergie is more suited to that role. Let's be patient, MAB will get his chance. This D is likely going to see some big changes come next year (if there is a next year, man I hate having to keep putting that disclaimer in), MAB can reset and try again. He's still young, though he's going to have some STIFF competition from Lynch/Woywitka/Greene and perhaps Luoma if he's not back in Europe.

I love Bergeron's game when he's on, but to be honest one of the big reasons he was on this team to begin with was to be a competent PP point, and he's underacheived in that regard. His offense has dried up as this season's progressed.

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01-14-2004, 10:37 AM
  #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LoudmouthHemskyfan#2
i have NEVER said that are "so laden with talent on the backend"....If it was Ferguson with the 2 way contract and Bergeron with the 1 way...Fergie would be gone for sure...agree? Bergeron is a good young offensive defenceman who knows how to put the puck in the net...Ferguson constantly gets beat to pucks that there is no way anyone should be able to beat you to...Bergeron has 11 points already...and has not played alot...he is ahead of some of our "good" forwards in points and even has a better +/- than fergie...and the compairison to Brewer was just simply trying to prove a point that two people can do the same thing but when one guy does it, it is ok...but when someone else does it he should be shot..and also he makes some VERY good outlet passes, and yes some are bad but the good ones pay off...
Agreed! Actually, while Bergeron's a bit inconsistent, I would still say that I have been impressed by Bergeron's play still. Its difficult jumping into the NHL for any young defenseman and its true that he has added some nice offense to the team. He wasn't drafted was he? I think I recall Lowe signed him as a UFA to the Bulldogs....

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01-14-2004, 10:53 AM
  #25
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Yes, I think you're right about Bergeron being undrafted. He's got a lot of things going for him, but he's still kind of an enigma, too. Last year after he went back to Hamilton for their playoff run, he looked AWFUL from what I saw of the games, and during his time in Toronto this year he didn't play all that well either.

I would agree, though, that if it was Fergie with the 2-way contract & Bergie (?) with the 1-way, we would see Ferguson in Toronto and Bergeron at least in the press box or playing the occasional game.

However, Ferguson isn't going to miss out on any development or progress by sitting in the PB, while Bergeron WOULD. So when he gets sent back down after Smith's return (and before Gator's trade!!! ) then it should do him more good than sitting in the press box here.

You could definitely tell that MAB brings a different set of skills to the table when he's on the ice (NHL), with his (usually) great passes out of the zone and ability to handle the puck & make plays, but there's no denying the defensive problems he has to work on yet.

Bart

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