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Old
11-18-2006, 06:26 PM
  #51
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Although I like Ryder on the Habs I would deal him too if we could get a decent offensive center below the age of 28 in the deal.To get something you need to give up some of your assets and with Ryder not scoring much this year he is really not bringing much to the Habs this season and Lats looks like he can play on the top lines so Ryder might be expendable.I'd say if the right deal came along I would ship him out.Maybe a package with Ryder and Souray could get us a decent return for a offensive center.

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11-18-2006, 06:43 PM
  #52
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Originally Posted by NRG87 View Post
Well, part of it is due to the fact that I have an admittedly unhealthy tendency to argue simply for the sake of arguing. It's all in good fun though, I mean no harm...maybe I secretly wish I was one of those TV lawyers. I guess I got slightly sidetracked from my initial point in the process of defending one of the claims from my initial post to other people. In my initial post, I stated that I thought we should trade Ryder should Higgins not be able to fill the void at center. The subsequent posts pertain to me defending my reasoning for picking Ryder as opposed to somebody else.



Using your interpretation of "gamble", almost every roster move is a gamble hehe...so what difference will another gamble make?

Seriously though, I see your point, but ultimately, it depends on what you think of Ryder. If you think highly of him, then to you, the chances that one of the kids can replace him is small. If you don't think highly of him, then to you, the chances that one of the kids can replace him is good.

You assume that Ryder's in Gainey's long-term plans, but it's possible that he isn't. If he isn't, then I don't think Ryder will be a Hab to start the 2007/2008 season.

Anyway, there's no point in continuing the discussion really, as we'll start seeing the same arguments being recycled. I acknowledge you make a well-reasoned case. You don't think it's a gamble worth taking, while I do. That's all there is to it.
My opinion on the matter is such that Ryder is the only player Les Glorieux have had since Zednik who can score 25-30 goals. Zednik became expendable since Ryder came along and stole that role from him. I understand your "devil's advocate stance", but you're fighting a losing battle in saying Ryder should be traded. Ryder is still relatively young and is worth what he's currently being paid and then some.

Most fans look at Ryder as a goal scorer and nothing more. You have to look at his progress. He's improved at other aspects of his game this year, specifically his speed and skating which are greatly noticable. He has become more defensively responsible in comparison to the last two seasons. Sure, he's in a slump, but that doesn't warrant pulling the trigger on the young fella.

I'm not sure what you have against him. Carbonneau seems to think highly of him, so highly that he has put Ryder to use on the PK which was unheard of previously. Carbonneau said he would get the most out of his players and he's doing just that.

Uni-demensional, you say? No.

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11-18-2006, 08:03 PM
  #53
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Originally Posted by Blind Gardien View Post
I think we're a couple years away from having the "luxury" of being able to realistically consider trading a player like Ryder. As the only player on our roster who can reasonably be expected to challenge for 30 goals (well, depending on how many games Higgins plays maybe) I think it would be foolish in the extreme to deal him. Oh sure, anybody can come back with the argument that ANY player can be traded if the right deal comes along... but that's not what we're looking at here, is it? Sounds like a more active shopping exercise is being proposed.

Samsonov has played roughly 50% of his possible games over the past few seasons, and Kovalev has a gimpy knee. We are all smitten I'm sure with the potential of our kids like Latendresse, Perezhogin, and Kostitsyn to one day challenge to become 30 goal scorers. But I'll be pleasantly surprised if any of them get 10 this year. This is not a situation which suggests to me that dealing Ryder would be moving from a position of strength. We are actually horribly weak in the area of goal-scoring. You move him for what, a Craig Conroy type? What exactly are we talking about here? Somebody who may or may not be able to solve our problem, and most likely somebody who is a bit older and isn't going to figure productively in our longterm picture to the extent that Ryder could. It's a fool's dream, IMO.

Trading for this mystical heroic 2nd line center is no more likely to solve any problems than continuing to experiment from within would, so why do it at the cost of our best goal scorer? Explore the internal options first. Then pause and remember we're on pace for a 105 point season so far despite this tragic 2nd line center problem. Give your head a shake. And then if you still find yourself wanting to trade Ryder... well, look upstairs at Mr. Bob Gainey's unsmiling face and realize that he traded one already for the humble Janne Niinimaa, clearly indicating just how seriously he views the problem and how unlikely it is that your foolish dreams are ever likely to be realized.
excellent post sir i commend you for speaking the truth . there are too many options available internally for us to be even considering any of these half baked ideas , let's exhaust these options first and may i add that right now i think acquiring a top four defenceman is a much more pressing need than second line center .

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11-19-2006, 02:39 AM
  #54
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I'd trade Abby or Samsonov before I traded Ryder.

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11-19-2006, 05:34 AM
  #55
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Ok, I will take a risk here. We are going to lose Souray at the end of the season anyway (you have to admit that it is VERY likely). Souray's best asset is his shot on the powerplay - his defensive play is a bit iffy, so if you trade Souray for the second line centre now, you pick up the offensive punch lost, get your second line centre and get something for Souray now as opposed to just losing him over the summer.

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11-19-2006, 07:43 AM
  #56
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Originally Posted by les Habs View Post
I'd trade Abby or Samsonov before I traded Ryder.
and you will get a 3rd or 4th line center..not so good huh ?

nobody's interested in Samsonov. he is so far from the player i remember watching play in Boston, and how he used to dominate the Habs when they played against each other.

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11-19-2006, 08:26 AM
  #57
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Originally Posted by habgab View Post
Ok, I will take a risk here. We are going to lose Souray at the end of the season anyway (you have to admit that it is VERY likely). Souray's best asset is his shot on the powerplay - his defensive play is a bit iffy, so if you trade Souray for the second line centre now, you pick up the offensive punch lost, get your second line centre and get something for Souray now as opposed to just losing him over the summer.
I'm on record for thinking that this would be almost suicidal. Right now, I don't care too much about next year. Now mind you, I'm not saying I'd go out and torch our future intentionally or anything. But the focus needs to be on winning NOW and by moving Souray, I think we'd be seriously hurting our chances of making the playoffs this season. He's that important to us. Even if we lose him as a UFA in the summer (which I don't think should be considered a 100% certainty, btw), then that's fine with me, in this day and age it's no longer important to blindly follow the mantra that you always have to get something for a UFA before you lose him. It would be a bad signal to the rest of the team if we dealt Souray, it would probably trigger a disastrous morale collapse even apart from the loss it would represent to our PP and offense.

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Old
11-19-2006, 08:39 AM
  #58
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Originally Posted by Mikhail Grabovsky View Post
and you will get a 3rd or 4th line center..not so good huh ?

nobody's interested in Samsonov. he is so far from the player i remember watching play in Boston, and how he used to dominate the Habs when they played against each other.
Well, there are always a select few cases of teams really trying to dump off their own problems, and while in general I do agree that Samsonov would be difficult to move, I don't know if it would be absolutely impossible. It's true you'd end up with a riskier proposition coming back, of course. But strange things happen sometimes. We could have had Petr Nedved on waivers... risky, but he's basically 2nd line center or bust. Lang doesn't seem to be producing in Detroit and they keep saying that they need a winger and need to move a center... the aging and expensive Lang would seem to be a good dump there. Risky, but again, 2nd line center or bust. There will be rent-a-players coming up at the deadline. Would Forsberg be one? Who else? Is Craig Conroy a 2nd line center? I think there are likely to be a number of choices who aren't pure grinders, but for sure they will all carry a certain amount of risk, and it's also true that Samsonov would not be an acceptable fit for every team involved (e.g. a "no" for Philly, but maybe a "yes" for Detroit).

There is some suggestion that Scott Gomez will be moved before the deadline too... NJ is doing well enough without him and might not be willing to re-sign him in the summer, given how well Zajac and Parise are coming on. Comrie in PHX, Morrison in Vancouver, York on the Isles, these are a few other names which seem to be bandied about as being players their respective teams might be looking to move. No idea how true it is or what the teams are looking for, but somewhere in it all, I think there could be a match, if we really wanted to do it.

Of course, our team is performing quite well now, and I don't think Gainey is going to make a move as long as that continues, so it might be a moot point. The internal options seem entirely fine so far, whether it be Kovalev or ultimately Higgins or Johnson, etc.

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11-19-2006, 09:51 AM
  #59
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oops

When kovolev has that game, I hope I will be able to see .We have only played nineeteen so far I'm waiting patiently for that game.


Last edited by laubelroc: 11-19-2006 at 06:19 PM.
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Old
11-19-2006, 11:06 AM
  #60
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Originally Posted by habgab View Post
Ok, I will take a risk here. We are going to lose Souray at the end of the season anyway (you have to admit that it is VERY likely). Souray's best asset is his shot on the powerplay - his defensive play is a bit iffy, so if you trade Souray for the second line centre now, you pick up the offensive punch lost, get your second line centre and get something for Souray now as opposed to just losing him over the summer.
And did you think the Oilers should have traded Pronger, Spacek and Peca at the deadline last year too? It wasn't like they were going to go anywhere in the playoffs.

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11-19-2006, 11:11 AM
  #61
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Originally Posted by laubelroc View Post
whem kovolev has that game i hope i will be able to see .Weve only played nineeteen so far im wating patiently for that game.
I don't know really what you are referring to, but it raises an interesting point. Instead of talking about trading this one or that one to get a second line centre, perhaps we should be taking a harder look at Kovalev. We keep trying to get something to get him going, but why? With his talent and salary, we should expect him to be the best on the team, to be the leader on whatever line he is on as opposed to requiring just the right combination at the right time to motivate him. Ryder fulfills his role on the team as do most of the other players. Last night, for example, Ryder and Perez worked like dogs to create chances while Kovalev floated around, looking lost and really being nothing other than a defensive liability. Bonk, Johnson, Begin, Lats, all of them worked hard and created spark. Kovalev is the odd man out, really, requiring the team to revolve around him rather than him being a pivot for the team. It may not be a second line centre that is required - we require someone who has first line capabilities, an offensive powerhouse to help out the offensive difficulties that the Habs have. Ryder is what he is - at least he tries most nights and gets chances, even with his alleged limited abilities. When Kovalev doesn't want to play, he just drags the team down as he is supposed to be a veteran leader, our superstar of sorts.

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11-19-2006, 11:19 AM
  #62
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Originally Posted by BladesofSteel View Post
And did you think the Oilers should have traded Pronger, Spacek and Peca at the deadline last year too? It wasn't like they were going to go anywhere in the playoffs.
Relax, I generally like Souray. I was just trying to consider how to fit the puzzle together - the argument was that we need a second line centre, and I was just musing over how the team might accomplish that. I think Souray provides as much or more off ice to the team as he provides on ice, and that type of leadership is important. However, if a second line centre is critical (and I am not convinced it is, see my post above), who do we give up to get that? Souray is not Pronger. Souray struggles defensively. Souray is best on the powerplay with that beauty shot, but if you pick up someone offensive for the second line, Souray's offense may be less necessary. I do think Souray is gone at the end of the year (as seemingly do some of the sports writers) - so, if there was a chance now to get something more necessary in return, it was an option to consider, that's all.

And, I don't think that Montreal right now has the depth and consistency to be the Oilers of last year. Giving up Pronger, Spacek and Peca would be significantly more ridiculous that considering how the team may look replacing Souray with a decent second line centre....

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11-19-2006, 11:31 AM
  #63
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Originally Posted by habgab View Post
I don't know really what you are referring to, but it raises an interesting point. Instead of talking about trading this one or that one to get a second line centre, perhaps we should be taking a harder look at Kovalev. We keep trying to get something to get him going, but why? With his talent and salary, we should expect him to be the best on the team, to be the leader on whatever line he is on as opposed to requiring just the right combination at the right time to motivate him. Ryder fulfills his role on the team as do most of the other players. Last night, for example, Ryder and Perez worked like dogs to create chances while Kovalev floated around, looking lost and really being nothing other than a defensive liability. Bonk, Johnson, Begin, Lats, all of them worked hard and created spark. Kovalev is the odd man out, really, requiring the team to revolve around him rather than him being a pivot for the team. It may not be a second line centre that is required - we require someone who has first line capabilities, an offensive powerhouse to help out the offensive difficulties that the Habs have. Ryder is what he is - at least he tries most nights and gets chances, even with his alleged limited abilities. When Kovalev doesn't want to play, he just drags the team down as he is supposed to be a veteran leader, our superstar of sorts.

that's a very good point...
the thing that holds me back on the idea of getting rid of kovalev (and i think most other hab fans) is that we all know what kovalev looks like when the stakes are high i.e come playoff time.
The playoff version (and even the "down the stretch" and olympic versions) of Kovalev is exactly the player we all expect him to be - talented, leading the team by his play/intensity, and creating chances regardless of who he's lining up with.
Right now he isn't that guy, it may have to do with his wonky knee, it may have to do with his attitude to the regular season, in either case he has shown enough of the elite play to make anyone hesitate throwing his name around in trade proposals... Plus, given his inconsistent play, his value on the trade market would come NOWHERE near his value when he brings his "A" game.

so yeah, i think in a "fair" world, Ryder would be getting a much better appreciation from everyone (and a lot of people around here do sing his praises regularly), but life ain't fair and guys like kovalev always get alot more wiggle room.

in any case, i still think that we should be moving at least one of our 8 wingers in hopes of landing a better 2nd line centre option (not so much to motivate Kovalev as it is to make sure we avoid being so dependant on Koivu and to hopefully improve our face-off ability... on that note, man would I love to see Stoll in a habs uniform!

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11-19-2006, 10:51 PM
  #64
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I didn't read the whole thread simply because it seemed pointless. Why in heck would we want to trade anyone when the team is playing so well. Any trade, no matter how many or few goals the player is scoring, could upset the chemistry of the team. I've seen post on this thread saying we should think of trading Ryder, Abby, Souray, Markov, Perezhogin, Kostitsyn, and the list of trade meat goes on and on. Why is it that people who claim to be fans can't just sit back and enjoy the success our team is having. No, they can't do that, they have to try to act like couch potato general managers and try to trade a couple good veterans and a lot of young talent away. This is just plain stupid.


Also, there has been a mention about Yann Danis not being able to fill in as backup if Abby did get traded. Where have you been hiding???? Danis filled in admirably last season during 5 games where he played well with a 3 wins 2 losses record, 2.69 GAA and .908 save percentage. Also throughout his career first in University the in the AHL he has consistently posted very good stats. Go on the Hamilton website and check out his Bio which includes things such as co-MVP 2005-2006 at the all-star classic, a shutout in his NHL debut, tied Bulldogs franchise record for most wins all time, tied Bulldogs record for shutouts, set new Bulldogs record for most wins in a season(the list goes on and on). He also holds many records for Brown University. I think if we really needed him as backup, he would stand tall. It's a great possibility given his history that he could in fact be a number one goalie on an NHL team. Given our Habs record of getting rid of great goaltenders(not including Jose of course) he probably will become a number one on another team.

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11-19-2006, 11:04 PM
  #65
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Originally Posted by Mikhail Grabovsky View Post
For a second line center, and does Ryder still have fair market value ?
I personally don't think Montreal's solution for second line center is Kovalev or any other body in our system( except for quite possibly Grabovski(long term), who isn't lighting them up in Hamilton). We have plenty of future punch on the wings, or maybe we should use his value to pick up a 3 or 4 defenceman with a contract through 2008.
Don't get me wrong i like Ryder, but we must give talent to receive talent.
I don't think that Latendresse is our solution on the first line but i do believe Kostitsyn could be, maybe even Milroy.
Hey maybe i'm completely off in left field here but what about trading Kovalev and keeping Ryder.

What are your thoughts ?

I'd wait to see how Latendresse progresses. I don't consider him untouchable. He reminds me so much of Ray Sheppard, Ryder could really develop into a sniper.

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11-20-2006, 08:21 AM
  #66
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Well, there are always a select few cases of teams really trying to dump off their own problems, and while in general I do agree that Samsonov would be difficult to move, I don't know if it would be absolutely impossible. It's true you'd end up with a riskier proposition coming back, of course. But strange things happen sometimes. We could have had Petr Nedved on waivers... risky, but he's basically 2nd line center or bust. Lang doesn't seem to be producing in Detroit and they keep saying that they need a winger and need to move a center... the aging and expensive Lang would seem to be a good dump there. Risky, but again, 2nd line center or bust. There will be rent-a-players coming up at the deadline. Would Forsberg be one? Who else? Is Craig Conroy a 2nd line center? I think there are likely to be a number of choices who aren't pure grinders, but for sure they will all carry a certain amount of risk, and it's also true that Samsonov would not be an acceptable fit for every team involved (e.g. a "no" for Philly, but maybe a "yes" for Detroit).

There is some suggestion that Scott Gomez will be moved before the deadline too... NJ is doing well enough without him and might not be willing to re-sign him in the summer, given how well Zajac and Parise are coming on. Comrie in PHX, Morrison in Vancouver, York on the Isles, these are a few other names which seem to be bandied about as being players their respective teams might be looking to move. No idea how true it is or what the teams are looking for, but somewhere in it all, I think there could be a match, if we really wanted to do it.

Of course, our team is performing quite well now, and I don't think Gainey is going to make a move as long as that continues, so it might be a moot point. The internal options seem entirely fine so far, whether it be Kovalev or ultimately Higgins or Johnson, etc.
We will have to agree that Gainey have been doing a big sweep of all the players he doesnt consider to be in his style of leadership and consistency. I believe Ryder is the last on that list. Why? Ryder have proved many times and continues too, that he is not a player that you can use in clutch situations. He will often forget to make the small play that makes a big difference. For that reason I do not believe he is part of the "Team 2009" plan that Gainey have been following quite religiously, removing and adding to reach his "goal" team.

I believe we have reach a crossroad in the building of this team, where many players that doesnt fit into team 2009 vision but have significant value might be lost to free agency. To me its the perfect time for Gainey to think about that big trade that will make or brake his plan. In my opinion, Ryder tops the list of those assets he will be willing to give to obtain a first line center. The best 2nd line center is easy to find, he is named Saku Koivu. It will probably cost a lot, but a big move will have to be made to clutch our contender status and without a doubt and I think the first line center position is lacking(as good as saku is, he wont score 30 goals anytime soon).

Guessing Team 2009.

Here are the elements that are probably in Gainey's plan today. Of course, any plan have to be flexible.

(Those are not lines)
In front:
Higgins - Latendresse - Kostitsyn
Perezhogin - Koivu - Grabovski
Chipchura - Lapierre - Begin

D:
Komisarek - Markov - Rivet - Emelin - Carle

In Goal:
Carey Price - Huet

Players in dev that might make that team are of course Fisher and Maxwell, for now lets not put them in the equation. Why Carle is making the team? He is 1 year older.

Wheres Pleckanec? Yeah, trade fodder imo. Very good player, but limited offensive output.
Wheres Kovalev? Gone after contract or traded
Wheres Samsonov? Gone after contract or traded
Wheres Bonk? Might be part of the team.
Wheres Johnson? Might be part of the team.

I could cover D spot 6, but its pretty useless imo, it might be fischer or any off the current cast that I dont see in the team future: Dandy, Bouillon etc or the younger Obyrne - Coté.

As for the 3 missing in front:

1) Its obvious as you look at this list what is missing, a first line center, it will still be true in 3 years, that is why it is probably Gainey's main focus to make that big trade OR wait for free agency. But can he wait for free agency? I doubt it. With the low turnout. Also, there will be no new-cba next generation centers available before at least 2013.(Crosby and co)
2) The 2 other players might be Johnson and Bonk or other interesting but not core free agents.

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11-20-2006, 09:04 AM
  #67
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I remember that I was all for trading Ryder last. This year, not. He has improve his all-around game and, sincerely, 30 goal scorers that come that cheap, you better think twice before dealing 'em.

Yes, he is streaky, but IMO, he's a keeper. At least this year.

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11-20-2006, 11:21 AM
  #68
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I remember that I was all for trading Ryder last. This year, not. He has improve his all-around game and, sincerely, 30 goal scorers that come that cheap, you better think twice before dealing 'em.

Yes, he is streaky, but IMO, he's a keeper. At least this year.
I'm also a bit surprised that many of our more die-hard posters seem don't seem to be making the same reversal that you are. A lot of people do seem to be making arguments based on the Ryder of last season. That did indeed seem to be quite a sluggish, one-dimensional Ryder, an easier argument as an expendable one, but I would have thought his play this season and knowing about his back troubles last year would mitigate that.

When I see the new leaner, faster Ryder in action, and I see Carbonneau trying him out on the PK, see him skating on the forecheck, and see him throwing checks (few people seem to make note of that, but he's probably in the top four or five on our team in terms of physical play this year)... well, I don't see a player that's very much at all like last season's version. Still streaky on scoring, but one tidy little goals streak will have his offensive numbers back on track. And even arguably, with his newfound dimensionality but no progression on his offensive numbers (i.e. if he finishes the year with 25g/50pts-ish) he probably won't have much of a leg to stand on for asking for even more money either... but we'll have a better player at roughly the same price. A young, more fit, more moulded to Carbo's style player too.

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11-20-2006, 11:31 AM
  #69
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Ryder may not be getting the goals yet this year, but he is working hard and contributing in other ways that go unrecognized. He is 4th in team hits, 5th in takeaways, 14th in giveaways and 2nd in missed shots. He is playing a lot better than he is getting credit for. Tradeable? Yes. Should he be traded? Not with the current mix of players on the team, imo.

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11-20-2006, 11:37 AM
  #70
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Another point - in response to the comment in the post above that Ryder is not a clutch player, it seems to me last year that he was relied upon in many games to get very important goals. He got the most game winning goals of everyone on the team last year and was second in overtime goals. On a team with few clutch players, Ryder is pretty close....

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11-20-2006, 12:19 PM
  #71
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Originally Posted by SOLR View Post
We will have to agree that Gainey have been doing a big sweep of all the players he doesnt consider to be in his style of leadership and consistency. I believe Ryder is the last on that list. Why? Ryder have proved many times and continues too, that he is not a player that you can use in clutch situations. He will often forget to make the small play that makes a big difference. For that reason I do not believe he is part of the "Team 2009" plan that Gainey have been following quite religiously, removing and adding to reach his "goal" team.

I believe we have reach a crossroad in the building of this team, where many players that doesnt fit into team 2009 vision but have significant value might be lost to free agency. To me its the perfect time for Gainey to think about that big trade that will make or brake his plan. In my opinion, Ryder tops the list of those assets he will be willing to give to obtain a first line center. The best 2nd line center is easy to find, he is named Saku Koivu. It will probably cost a lot, but a big move will have to be made to clutch our contender status and without a doubt and I think the first line center position is lacking(as good as saku is, he wont score 30 goals anytime soon).

Guessing Team 2009.

Here are the elements that are probably in Gainey's plan today. Of course, any plan have to be flexible.

(Those are not lines)
In front:
Higgins - Latendresse - Kostitsyn
Perezhogin - Koivu - Grabovski
Chipchura - Lapierre - Begin

D:
Komisarek - Markov - Rivet - Emelin - Carle

In Goal:
Carey Price - Huet

Players in dev that might make that team are of course Fisher and Maxwell, for now lets not put them in the equation. Why Carle is making the team? He is 1 year older.

Wheres Pleckanec? Yeah, trade fodder imo. Very good player, but limited offensive output.
Wheres Kovalev? Gone after contract or traded
Wheres Samsonov? Gone after contract or traded
Wheres Bonk? Might be part of the team.
Wheres Johnson? Might be part of the team.

I could cover D spot 6, but its pretty useless imo, it might be fischer or any off the current cast that I dont see in the team future: Dandy, Bouillon etc or the younger Obyrne - Coté.

As for the 3 missing in front:

1) Its obvious as you look at this list what is missing, a first line center, it will still be true in 3 years, that is why it is probably Gainey's main focus to make that big trade OR wait for free agency. But can he wait for free agency? I doubt it. With the low turnout. Also, there will be no new-cba next generation centers available before at least 2013.(Crosby and co)
2) The 2 other players might be Johnson and Bonk or other interesting but not core free agents.
Don't get me wrong, I do respect your opinion but I think it is based mostly on wishful thinking.

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11-20-2006, 12:21 PM
  #72
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Originally Posted by Blind Gardien View Post
I'm also a bit surprised that many of our more die-hard posters seem don't seem to be making the same reversal that you are. A lot of people do seem to be making arguments based on the Ryder of last season. That did indeed seem to be quite a sluggish, one-dimensional Ryder, an easier argument as an expendable one, but I would have thought his play this season and knowing about his back troubles last year would mitigate that.

When I see the new leaner, faster Ryder in action, and I see Carbonneau trying him out on the PK, see him skating on the forecheck, and see him throwing checks (few people seem to make note of that, but he's probably in the top four or five on our team in terms of physical play this year)... well, I don't see a player that's very much at all like last season's version. Still streaky on scoring, but one tidy little goals streak will have his offensive numbers back on track. And even arguably, with his newfound dimensionality but no progression on his offensive numbers (i.e. if he finishes the year with 25g/50pts-ish) he probably won't have much of a leg to stand on for asking for even more money either... but we'll have a better player at roughly the same price. A young, more fit, more moulded to Carbo's style player too.
To me this sounds a lot like the good old debates about Shane Corson. Can we agree on the fact that Ryder is not the "clear" winner Higgins is and will never have a shot at it? Sure he can score 30 goals for a couple of seasons, is he a Gartner?

I dont disagree Ryder is a much improved player this year. For me, what we need, is 30 goals from a center. We have plenty of wingers with 30 goals potential on team and in the minors, but we cleary dont have that in the middle. We cannot win championships with a 2nd line that produce so little, the solution for that is obvious, replace Saku on the first line by a better player.(Everybody is thinking of Lecavalier and I think vinny should have been acquired a decade ago.)

In today's NHL you cannot win cups without making bold moves, I think the time as come for our bold move and Ryder is not, to me, part of team 2009 vision. So far Gainey did proceed with caution and calm, it was warranted, but this phase of rebuilding should be over now. If Gainey think its not over, he better make something happen to grab Esposito at the draft and dont make the Lecavalier mistake twices in 10 years.

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11-20-2006, 12:28 PM
  #73
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Originally Posted by Dynasty View Post
Don't get me wrong, I do respect your opinion but I think it is based mostly on wishful thinking.
What part? Easy to label, any exercise of projection on what we will have in 2 years is wishful thinking by definition. But in my opinion is a very important strategic analysis that have worked really well in the past. Where do you think we will be in 2 years?

The plan when Gainey came in was to win the cup in 2008-2009, im only following is "plan" and seeing the "blocks" fall into place. This year Perezhogin and Komisarek are coming out(2002 draft). Next year it should be Kost and maybe Chipchura-Lapierre-Grabovki(one or some of them). Lats is a pleasant surprise. Price ready in 2 years as a backup is not to far stretch.

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11-20-2006, 02:55 PM
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Originally Posted by SOLR View Post
To me this sounds a lot like the good old debates about Shane Corson. Can we agree on the fact that Ryder is not the "clear" winner Higgins is and will never have a shot at it? Sure he can score 30 goals for a couple of seasons, is he a Gartner?
? Not sure what this all means. I don't think there's any element of Higgins vs. Ryder anywhere. Why can't we have both? And why should everybody on the team live up to the "winner" status of Higgins? Would Kost/Perez/Lats live up to it any better than Ryder?

Nor does he have to be a Hall-of-Fame metronomic scorer like Mike Gartner. What standard is that to apply to anybody? (Although Ryder has in fact given no indication whatsoever that he can't consistently chip in 25-30 goals, and 55-63 points, given that he's only 2 years into his career).
Quote:
I dont disagree Ryder is a much improved player this year. For me, what we need, is 30 goals from a center.
What about Higgins and Kovalev?
Quote:
We have plenty of wingers with 30 goals potential on team and in the minors,
"potential"... I doubt Gainey is as willing to rely on "potential" as you are... this year means something too, and Ryder figures as much into this year as into the potential future, which is a much riskier proposition for all of these other wingers...
Quote:
We cannot win championships with a 2nd line that produce so little,
... yet we seem to be chugging along at a 100+ point pace, despite a quarter-season quasi-slump from our second line... I don't think it's fait accompli that such a team couldn't win a championship, nor that the remaining 3/4 of the season will necessarily see Kovalev and Samsonov's slumps continue...
Quote:
the solution for that is obvious, replace Saku on the first line by a better player.(Everybody is thinking of Lecavalier and I think vinny should have been acquired a decade ago.)
And as icing on the cake, I cannot remotely see how we're going to get a first line center better than Koivu. At least, not without absolutely gutting our team and rebuilding. Seems awfully pointless to me...
Quote:
In today's NHL you cannot win cups without making bold moves,
There's "bold" and then there's "reckless"...

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11-20-2006, 03:29 PM
  #75
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Originally Posted by Blind Gardien View Post
? Not sure what this all means. I don't think there's any element of Higgins vs. Ryder anywhere. Why can't we have both? And why should everybody on the team live up to the "winner" status of Higgins? Would Kost/Perez/Lats live up to it any better than Ryder?
I was just stating the fact that even a less productive Higgins( right now perezhogin) is more usefull than someone converting his game into something that it wasnt meant to be. There was a lot of that in the Corson era if you remember. You seem to be a big advocate of changing Ryder into a carbo style player, for some reasons I dont believe too much into these player transformation, it just end up undermining the value of your assets at the end.

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Originally Posted by Blind Gardien View Post
Nor does he have to be a Hall-of-Fame metronomic scorer like Mike Gartner. What standard is that to apply to anybody? (Although Ryder has in fact given no indication whatsoever that he can't consistently chip in 25-30 goals, and 55-63 points, given that he's only 2 years into his career).
What about Higgins and Kovalev?
1) At least 7-8 years like a solid first line career. Something I see Higgins doing and Kost-Lats as the potential to reach, however I'm unwilling to invest too much into Ryder.
2) Kovalev is playing hurt, but yes he should give more. I never said I agreed on spending that much on the enigmatic russian in the first place.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Blind Gardien View Post
"potential"... I doubt Gainey is as willing to rely on "potential" as you are... this year means something too, and Ryder figures as much into this year as into the potential future, which is a much riskier proposition for all of these other wingers...
To unleash wingers potential you need good centers, with Ryder or without we are lacking. But we have more depth down the wing by a wide margin. Is freeing 1 spot on the roster that big of a risk even for this year? I dont think so. And if we find a center that gives us more we are gonna end up inflating the wingers chance to reach their potential as well. You also cannot look at the situation on a strick, line by line basis, since a real first line center would change the dynamic of the team completely.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Blind Gardien View Post
... yet we seem to be chugging along at a 100+ point pace, despite a quarter-season quasi-slump from our second line... I don't think it's fait accompli that such a team couldn't win a championship, nor that the remaining 3/4 of the season will necessarily see Kovalev and Samsonov's slumps continue...
For sure, we have a good start, but we wont be a playoff stanley cup winning team without a real first line center. Thats a fai accompli. Staal-Brin D'amour, Lecavalier - Richards, last 2 stanley cup champions. Koivu-"Still searching for 2nd" is our current status.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Blind Gardien View Post
And as icing on the cake, I cannot remotely see how we're going to get a first line center better than Koivu. At least, not without absolutely gutting our team and rebuilding. Seems awfully pointless to me...
I bet the Sharks are in complete reconstruction too, I think we are in that position to make a move that will give us what we want without crippling the team.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Blind Gardien View Post
There's "bold" and then there's "reckless"...
Of course, I'm not for a stupid move, but im for the bold move. Theres some risks needed to be taken when you are a GM. Mr. Burke knows it all. Anyway, I'm elaborating on what we need and what we have, I'm not saying I would make any move.

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