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Derek Stepan Negotiations (9/19-Dreger: "Unlikely" Stepan signs before season opens)

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Old
09-15-2013, 02:09 PM
  #51
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Originally Posted by Fire Sather View Post
Just like they wouldn't accept a salary cap. Until they did.

By "give back" I mean that the NHL rejected the idea of extending the previous CBA. That alone shows that the NHL wanted a new CBA and the players were going to have to give some things back.

From what was made public, they made no efforts to make any meaningful negotiations or compromises until almost half the season was gone.
Your idea of negotiating seems to be that one side should do all the taking and other should do all the giving.

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09-15-2013, 02:24 PM
  #52
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Letting the clock run out is a perfectly appropriate negotiating tactic. The sooner you, the fan, remove yourself from the equation the sooner you'll prevent unnecessary heartburn.

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09-15-2013, 02:32 PM
  #53
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Originally Posted by Fire Sather View Post
They were. Fehr spewed his ******** for months before he ever made a legit offer or any effort to compromise.

The owners weren't blameless, but to me it was always much more on the players.

Yeah Yeah I know it was a lockout not a strike but the players knew they had to give back, and they didn't even bother to start seriously negotiating until December.
As a union member... I thank god, that you are not involved with my union...

Unions don't give up anything without some degree of concessions. Everything that union members have has been earned through years of negotiation. You don't just start giving things away, because the other side determines that they want it back.

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Old
09-15-2013, 02:33 PM
  #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fire Sather View Post
Just like they wouldn't accept a salary cap. Until they did.

By "give back" I mean that the NHL rejected the idea of extending the previous CBA. That alone shows that the NHL wanted a new CBA and the players were going to have to give some things back.

From what was made public, they made no efforts to make any meaningful negotiations or compromises until almost half the season was gone.
Not sure that they ever had a willing partner. Do you remember the league's initial offer? It was insulting. And given that the owners only won on the percentage decrease and contract length (just the having of one, they lost on the actual term) and the players basically won on every single other issue (by maintaining the status quo, which was their goal), I would think that the tactic was pretty effective.

As for Stepan, you said earlier that Stepan doesn't have the leverage to be holding out. uh... what? Holding out is his leverage.

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09-15-2013, 02:36 PM
  #55
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I'm glad the team didn't just throw 5 mil at stepan. It also is reasonable for him to want to try to get that if he thinks he will continue to play like he did for roughly 40 games last year. But as a RFA in the NHL he's not yet going to get 5 mil for playing at that level for such a short time period and he should know that. 3 for 2 years should be the deal maybe he argues for a little more. I didn't see specifics what is he asking for and what are the NYR offering?

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09-15-2013, 03:00 PM
  #56
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To me an odd thing about this when speaking about the owners as individuals in their business worlds--the belief by almost all of them is an absolutely unrestricted, unconstrained, unfettered marketplace where the best always rise to the top and pretty much **** the rest--they'll land where they land. There's no such thing as yeah this hockey player is all protected for yada amount of years--everyone to them in their real business worlds should be a free agent all the time and whatever pay or benefits they get is whatever any employer is willing to give for his/her services--there should be no government safety net or minimum wage or crying about we need schools and someone to fix the roads and bridges and taxing me and my major corporation for this ****--that's one reason why people like them outsource jobs whenever they can turn it into a profit. Cutting costs. Maximizing profits. That's how practically every one of these owners got to where he is. For the glory of owning a team and making so many millions of $'s in the sports world these things get set aside and so their respective investments here won't go under they want protections for their assets--it's like socialism for the rich--something they're dead set against giving smaller competitors in their other world.

So I don't have a hell of a lot of sympathy for the owners. Stepan strikes me as a cool guy and a really fine hockey player. If he didn't have his union they'd pay him like Brad Park back in the 1970's if they could get away with it--here $25K --take it or leave it. Stepan is on par with players who are going to make significantly more than him as it is.

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09-15-2013, 03:05 PM
  #57
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Originally Posted by NYRangers723 View Post
the bd thing is that if stepan misses all of training camp it will take him awhile before he is in good/effective playing shape as well so that sucks
I don't know what the actual stats are, but my recollection is that players that miss training camp often have sub par seasons and are more susceptible to injury.

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09-15-2013, 03:08 PM
  #58
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I don't know what the actual stats are, but my recollection is that players that miss training camp often have sub par seasons and are more susceptible to injury.
Always seems to happen, no matter the sport. Contract disputes heading into camp are the worst.

Only exception I recall to this is PK Subban last year, when he came in and tore it up.

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Old
09-15-2013, 04:21 PM
  #59
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If Stepan continues to hold out the rest of the month then he is gonna have a hard time getting off to a good start. I mean last year we only had like 2 weeks of training camp but thats better than nothing. He better get it done this week and get into camp

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09-15-2013, 05:03 PM
  #60
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Stepan and the Rangers are believed to be separated by approximately $1 million over two years. The center is believed to be seeking in the neighborhood of $7 million on a two-year bridge deal while the Blueshirts are thought to have offered just under $6 million.

The club appears to have between $3-$3.5 million of available cap space depending upon the final roster. That number will increase early in the season once the rehabbing Ryan Callahan and Carl Hagelin are able to join the lineup and their replacements are sent to the AHL Wolf Pack.

But that doesn’t necessarily help Stepan’s bargaining power any more than a hard line from general manager Glen Sather advances the process.
http://nypost.com/2013/09/15/stepan-...rs-center-mix/

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09-15-2013, 05:09 PM
  #61
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I have to believe Glen's roof for this thing is $3M/year. Unless Step is committed to absolutely stalemating this and forcing the general manger's hand (not Glen's hand per se), then he's probably better off with a proposal for $3M and just go on about his business. Glen's not only being tough on negotitation, he's also managing the cap the best he can at this stage going forward.

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09-15-2013, 05:10 PM
  #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fire Sather View Post
I'm just pro-owner when it comes to things like this. They provide the league. Stepan can't make that money elsewhere. Rangers own his rights. Hes not getting an offer sheet.
I didn't realize the owners put their health and lives on the line out there every night to play a game. You can spout that ******** when it's the owners getting concussed during games and the owners committing suicide due to repercussions from head injuries.

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09-15-2013, 05:10 PM
  #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RangerBoy View Post
OK, so 3.25 it is. Sign the ****ing deal and get him to camp.

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09-15-2013, 05:12 PM
  #64
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Originally Posted by NYRangers723 View Post
If Stepan continues to hold out the rest of the month then he is gonna have a hard time getting off to a good start. I mean last year we only had like 2 weeks of training camp but thats better than nothing. He better get it done this week and get into camp
Don't you think Stepan not being in camp is hurting the Rangers? Sather calls it "risky" for a young player to miss camp. It's "risky" for the Rangers to hold the line for this long. Offer to split the difference in the Rangers. $3.2M. Sather gets the satisfaction of saving $50,000. Stepan is the most important forward on the team and he isn't camp. He is willing to accept the Rangers two year term. Stepan should get more than Kadri. If they have to pay a little more to get the player in camp and ready for the season,they do it.

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09-15-2013, 05:12 PM
  #65
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Quote:
http://nypost.com/2013/09/15/stepan-...rs-center-mix/

“Considering the players available to us, Brian is a center,” coach Alain Vigneault said. “It’s a valid question [whether he would be on the wing if Stepan were in camp], but I can’t answer that right now because he’s not here.”

Can't help but chuckle at what Tortorella's answer would have been.

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09-15-2013, 05:14 PM
  #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RangerBoy View Post
Stepan should get more than Kadri.
Agreed. But it shouldn't be by much.

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09-15-2013, 05:24 PM
  #67
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Agreed. But it shouldn't be by much.
Everyone agrees he should get more than Kadri, but considering what Couture and Subban got on their 2nd contracts $3M per is pretty generous.

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Old
09-15-2013, 05:33 PM
  #68
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Good for Fehr for playing the tough guy in the CBA "negotiations". The 2005 CBA expired one year ago today. The Fehr brothers were able maintain the status quo except for going from 57% to 50% and giving contract term limits. The NHL wanted 5 years. The NHLPA cut a deal for 7 and 8. Even at 50% and 7 and 8,the NHL players will get paid. The salary cap is going up for next season. The NHLPA fought to keep the cap at a reasonable number instead of $60M which the NHL wanted. The NFL players association rushed to make a deal so training camp could start of time. Their leverage was missing actual NFL games and they got schooled by Goodell. The NFL and NBA players got bad CBAs. The NHL owners wanted to take away all of the player gains from the 2005 CBA. That is not negotiating.

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Old
09-15-2013, 05:38 PM
  #69
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Just get him to camp. Him missing training camp/preseason/regular season games doesn't just hurt Stepan but the Rangers as well.

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09-15-2013, 05:38 PM
  #70
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I'm starting to get annoyed now. Two sides can't work out a $500,000-$600,000 difference? Both sides would rather have their 1C out of training camp and preseason over a difference of $1,000,000? Realistically, it's not even $1,000,000+ over two years. It's going to come down somewhere in the middle. If Glen can't bump up his offer by $250,000 for the sake of the hockey club and Step can't lower his offer by $250,000 for the sake of playing hockey, then let this get ugly because they seem perfectly comfortable doing that. Both sides know they're going to have to yield a little bit. Unless Step is committed to losing regular season games, then he's not going to get $3.4-$3.5M. Unless Glen is committed to not having his 1C at any point before the start of the season and to start the season with a team that is disrupted by a 1C that has yet to meet the coach in person, he's not going to get Step to sign to a <$3M-$3.05M contract. It's somewhere between $3.1-$3.3M give or take $50,000. If his agent walked in and negotiated with the intention of taking $3.1M, Glen wouldn't say no. If Glen started negotiation with the intent of giving $3.3M, Step wouldn't say no. It's literally stalemating over $200,000/year because neither side is committed to missing a single game.

edit: and if they're both committed to losing regular season games over $250,000 at most, then, well, ya, good sports.

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09-15-2013, 05:43 PM
  #71
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The two sides need to come to an agreement ASAP and get him in camp and ready for the start of the season. They'll already be missing Callahan and Hagelin to start the year, not to mention the opening nine-game road trip. Missing part of camp can screw up a player's season way beyond the end of camp.

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Old
09-15-2013, 05:45 PM
  #72
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Originally Posted by NYR94 View Post
The two sides need to come to an agreement ASAP and get him in camp and ready for the start of the season. They'll already be missing Callahan and Hagelin to start the year, not to mention the opening nine-game road trip. Missing part of camp can screw up a player's season way beyond the end of camp.
I'm surprised Step wants to be "that guy".

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Old
09-15-2013, 06:50 PM
  #73
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What, "that guy" that wants to get paid what he is worth?

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09-15-2013, 07:09 PM
  #74
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What, "that guy" that wants to get paid what he is worth?
You mean get paid a fair bit more than the comparables? Because he's being that guy.

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09-15-2013, 07:21 PM
  #75
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You mean get paid a fair bit more than the comparables? Because he's being that guy.
The comparables are not relevant in this instance. The market has shrunk. There are not very many unsigned, near ppg kids available any more. If you are a team that cannot attract a free agent or keep a traded-for player, an offer sheet might save the GM his job. It's not unreasonable.

Calgary didn't hire Burke for no reason. Burke is a publicity machine, able to face tough topics and remain on point. He can easily handle the fallout from an offer sheet.

Vancouver has nothing to lose as far as popularity goes. They have no third line center, as yet. I think the Canuck coach might be familiar with this young player, too.

By the way, good luck in the new season. I'm a big fan of Vigneault. He was never the problem in Vancouver.

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