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Benevolence vs Brutality; the Benefits of Big Bad Boris

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Old
11-14-2006, 04:47 PM
  #1
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Benevolence vs Brutality; the Benefits of Big Bad Boris

We've been known for a while, whether correct or not, as a 'goon' team. Many people view this as a bad thing, but I'm all for making the other team hurt. I don't really want to see cheapshots, but I'd take being a tough physical team with the odd dirty play versus the alternative; a soft team that just takes a loss like it's acceptable.

I think it's often understated how big an effect having a player who can and will physically destroy the opposition with either his shoulder or his fists has on the rest of the team (and the opposition for that matter). Enforcers like Boulton don't really count because they're hardly ever out there, and even when they are they aren't out there against the players that it would be worth intimidating - but having a top-4 defensemen with monstrous size and a nasty disposition brings much more of an intimidation factor.

Sutton is pretty good because a) he's out there so often, and b) he's got that slightly-insane alternate persona that can sometimes cause him to do some brutal/dumb hits.. But he has never struck me as much of a fighter, and is always going to be susceptible to getting killed by the other teams enforcer if he starts taking liberties on the opposition.

Valabik is even bigger, and by the sounds of it much nastier than Sutton.. It would just be perfect if he was a great fighter too. He may not come close to having the offensive or defensive impact that Chara has, but if Valabik can play solid defense and occasionally break the face of one of the biggest enforcers in the league (ala Chara-Ivanans), his value to the team will be much greater than his stats are likely to indicate. I very much doubt he could break enforcers faces with any regularity, but you get the point.

Can you imagine lining up against a violent monster of a man who could even smash up your best enforcer? If Valabik can develop into this monster I'm sure Kari wouldn't have to resort to shooting water bottles down the ice anymore.. I'm also sure after a while even the mere presence of Valabik will be enough to make sure guys like Dingman and Richards 'sharpen those skates' of theirs.

So for those of you have seen him drop the gloves, what are Valabik's fighting skills like? He obviously has the size, but has he got the fighting skills? How would he stand up against the top enforcers in the NHL?

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11-14-2006, 05:36 PM
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Dunno about Valabik but I know Exelby can fight. Most memorable fight from Exelby must be the one against Dwyer when we were playing the Montreal Canadians. That was a KO.

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11-14-2006, 06:05 PM
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Hossa got kneed in the preseason, and Valabik went right after the guy. I think he got owned, but he's nasty and he can work on his fighting skills if they suck (I've personally never seen him fight).

There's a little article about him in the new issue of The Hockey News. Here are some good quotes:

Valabik's on-ice work is similar to his canvas. Deliberate, raw, a little choppy, but ful of passion.

While he's far from polished, his skating is solid and so are his hits.

"Boris is still a big project," said Wolves coach John Anderson. "He has size and strength and he certainly wants to win, but he still has some things to learn. He has to be more flexible in his own-zone play and he has to control his temper. But if you have raw-core ability, once you learn the nuances...you're going to play in the NHL.


Chara took a while to develop, so Valabik might too. But if he puts in the time and hard work, he could be just as good as Chara.

Actually, if you search for Valabik on youtube, all you get are fights. He did pretty well in them. The only times he ever went down was when he lost his balance - never a KO.

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11-14-2006, 09:04 PM
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So you're saying we should find another Boogaard...

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11-14-2006, 09:32 PM
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Well in a way Boogaard was the inspiration for this thread, yeah. He's an enforcer who can't be trusted with any significant minutes yet still managed to give the entire Anaheim organisation fits.

Not only did he destroy one of the better enforcers in the league, in the very next matchup he caused a heck of a stir by running Niedermayer and Giguere, and was one of the big reasons why Anaheim traded in their broken enforcer for a new one - paying quite a hefty price in the process.

It just got me thinking - what in the hell could you do to stop that man? O'Brien (a pretty big & tough boy himself) tried to fight him after he kneed Selanne (?) in that first game, realised he was in way over his head and just held on tight. Fedoruk had a go to stick up for his teammates, and may never be able to fight again after making one little mistake in their bout. Anaheim is one of the biggest and toughest teams in the league - if they can't handle Boogaard, who the hell can? (apparently Laraque, but the list is very very small)

And imagine if Boogaard was actually a good hockey player? If he could be an asset to the team whether he was hurting people or not? And then my mind drifted to Chara, and the time he beat up that Ivanans kid - who is massive I think - and how great it must be to have a player like that on your team.. And then naturally my stream of consciousness lead to Valabik and his future with the Thrashers. Isn't he meant to be 'nastier' than Chara?

But I have no idea how good Valabik is at fighting..

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11-14-2006, 10:06 PM
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It just got me thinking - what in the hell could you do to stop that man? O'Brien (a pretty big & tough boy himself) tried to fight him after he kneed Selanne (?) in that first game, realised he was in way over his head and just held on tight. Fedoruk had a go to stick up for his teammates, and may never be able to fight again after making one little mistake in their bout. Anaheim is one of the biggest and toughest teams in the league - if they can't handle Boogaard, who the hell can? (apparently Laraque, but the list is very very small)
You can't stop Boogaard. You have to hit him and hope that you don't get hurt during the hit, and hope that you'll be able to get out of the way when he takes his huge run at you later in the shift. I saw Conroy level him in the corner the other night, and Boogaard skated all the way down the ice, making a beeline for Conroy, when he missed his check and fell down trying to hit Craig.

That's really all you can do.

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11-15-2006, 04:01 AM
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Originally Posted by Lehtonen32 View Post
So for those of you have seen him drop the gloves, what are Valabik's fighting skills like? He obviously has the size, but has he got the fighting skills? How would he stand up against the top enforcers in the NHL?

Valabik was pretty much the undisputed champ in the OHL last year. He's a big kid with a real nasty streak who can throw em. It takes some time to adjust to fighting men, but I'm sure his fight game will never be an issue. He may not reach Chara's level, but he'll be tough enough to take on 98% of the players in the league.

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11-15-2006, 06:52 AM
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I like physical play, but it has to be clean and smart, take Ovechkin for example. It's ok to take a penalty now and then (especially when you have a score to settle on the ice), but too much get's your team in a hole - and that's worse than having them hyped from a huge, but illegal check... It's good to have Sutton, though. Every team needs an enforcer...

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11-15-2006, 07:08 AM
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Valabik has had over 200 PIM for the (Kitchener) Rangers and is on pace for 200 in Chicago. I don't know where these PIM come from, but it looks like too much much.

To match Chara's physical presence on the ice Valabik needs to add more muscle. Yes, it sounds crazy but Boris is 30 lbs lighter than the Big Z.

Chara was a huge factor for the Sens and opponents feared to skated into the defensive zone when he was out and he was out there for quite some time.

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11-15-2006, 02:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Käptäin Kärppä View Post
Chara was a huge factor for the Sens and opponents feared to skated into the defensive zone when he was out and he was out there for quite some time.
I don't know about Chara being feared. He's huge and he's a very good defenseman, but he doesn't have a reputation for being a punishing physical presence like Valabik. Chara uses his size well, but what makes him good is he's smart and can skate - that's where the big gap between Valabik and Chara lies.

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11-15-2006, 02:24 PM
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Chara uses his size well, but what makes him good is he's smart and can skate - that's where the big gap between Valabik and Chara lies.
Plus when you are that big, reach and mobility are more important than mass.

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11-15-2006, 02:48 PM
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I don't know about Chara being feared. He's huge and he's a very good defenseman, but he doesn't have a reputation for being a punishing physical presence like Valabik. Chara uses his size well, but what makes him good is he's smart and can skate - that's where the big gap between Valabik and Chara lies.
He destroyed Ivanians (spelling?), gave Gill a couple of good punches and threw McCabe around like a little baby doll. Zdeno Chara has been one of the best checkers in the NHL. Ottawa just perfered him to be on the ice than in the penalty box. Valabik is nastier and meaner.

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11-15-2006, 05:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Käptäin Kärppä View Post
Valabik has had over 200 PIM for the (Kitchener) Rangers and is on pace for 200 in Chicago. I don't know where these PIM come from, but it looks like too much much.

To match Chara's physical presence on the ice Valabik needs to add more muscle. Yes, it sounds crazy but Boris is 30 lbs lighter than the Big Z.

Chara was a huge factor for the Sens and opponents feared to skated into the defensive zone when he was out and he was out there for quite some time.
Shane O'Brien is on pace for 310 PIMs this season, but he's only given up about ~7 powerplays all year. I know one was in retaliation on Boogaard for the Selanne hit, one was a 'necessary' penalty to stop a goal, and I think he had another instigator in beating up that Hollweg punk (which was no doubt retribution for an illegal hit!), so at most he's given up 4 PP's in 18 games that weren't really called for. Jimmy Slater had surpassed that mark 2 games into this season..

You can have rough guys with massive PIM totals that don't constantly take bad penalties. I don't know if Valabik can be like that mind you...

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11-15-2006, 06:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Lehtonen32 View Post
Shane O'Brien is on pace for 310 PIMs this season, but he's only given up about ~7 powerplays all year. I know one was in retaliation on Boogaard for the Selanne hit, one was a 'necessary' penalty to stop a goal, and I think he had another instigator in beating up that Hollweg punk (which was no doubt retribution for an illegal hit!), so at most he's given up 4 PP's in 18 games that weren't really called for. Jimmy Slater had surpassed that mark 2 games into this season..

You can have rough guys with massive PIM totals that don't constantly take bad penalties. I don't know if Valabik can be like that mind you...
Holy Moly, this guy is a monster. 6'2'' and ~240 lbs.

Just went over his stats and so far Valabik's penalty minutes haven't hurt the Wolves that much. Of his 62 PIM, 45 min were part of fighting majors (among others) and game misconducts. I found the following stat interesting: Valabik is tied for 2nd with +12 (leads all rookies.)

Well, perhaps I was wrong about the Big V!

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11-18-2006, 11:39 PM
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Well, here is what I have to say about Valabik tonight. He needs to learn when to fight and when not to fight. Toward the end of tonight's game (4 minutes to go Wolves up 5-3) against the Grand Rapids Griffins, Derek MacKenzie was blatantly boarded when going into the zone on a short handed chance. The Wolves were about to get back to even after being down a man. Jordan LaVallee was the first in to defend his teammate and got into a mutual fight. As is par for the course in a game, everyone started to find a partner and grab a jersey; no fighting, but just congregating. GR D-Man Ericsson went to grab up with Valabik, and Valabik just starts beating on him. Ericsson was not trying to fight, it was just the usual players grabbing up during a scrum, but because of Valabik's short fuse, and getting into a fight with a guy clearly not trying to fight, Valabik gets the 2-5-10 (2 for instagating, 5 for fighting, and a 10 minute misconduct). He gives the power play back to Grand Rapids when it should have been 4 on 4. This was a critical part of the game and luckily the power play was killed, but it could just as easily turned ugly quick.

I will say that other than this boneheaded fighting penalty, I liked Valabik's play. For instance, early in the first period, Valabik was playing the point at even strength when he got the puck, with the GR defenseman rushing to hit him, he held the puck for a little longer in order to make the play to a teammate skating to an open spot down low. I liked the rookie's poise in the face of opposition; he didn't panic and dump it deep. He had the time; he was never hit by the dfenseman, but I have seen other players just get spooked and fire it in. Valabik managed to make a good play.

In the third, he made a good diving stop at his own blue line to prevent an odd man rush.

Valabik seems to have some good defensive moves, but if he develops a repuation as a goon, he'll never get the benefit of the calls, and he could be missing at key times in the game. I have been very critical of Braydon Coburn taking inopportune penalties late in the game. I have to say the same thing for Valabik in this case. He was playing on the penalty kill for the first time (that I can remember during game), and it is late in the game. He got an opportunity late, and he puts Grand Rapids right back on the power play after it was going to be nullified. Instead of four-on-four, the power play continued because Valabik decided to fight a guy who wasn't even trying to fight.

EDIT: At the game, they announced the 2-5-10 on Valabik. I double checked this against the TV broadcast on my DVR. However, on the scoresheet on the AHL website that I just checked, they gave the 2-5-10 to LaVallee. I'm not sure what the end result was or will be, but regardless, it was not a good fight to get into. I really thought it would go Valabik because in the game and watching the replay, it looked like Valabik went after a guy and started a fight with a guy who wasn't trying to fight.


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11-19-2006, 01:24 AM
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Originally Posted by Majik1987 View Post
Well, here is what I have to say about Valabik tonight. He needs to learn when to fight and when not to fight. Toward the end of tonight's game (4 minutes to go Wolves up 5-3) against the Grand Rapids Griffins, Derek MacKenzie was blatantly boarded when going into the zone on a short handed chance. The Wolves were about to get back to even after being down a man. Jordan LaVallee was the first in to defend his teammate and got into a mutual fight. As is par for the course in a game, everyone started to find a partner and grab a jersey; no fighting, but just congregating. GR D-Man Ericsson went to grab up with Valabik, and Valabik just starts beating on him. Ericsson was not trying to fight, it was just the usual players grabbing up during a scrum, but because of Valabik's short fuse, and getting into a fight with a guy clearly not trying to fight, Valabik gets the 2-5-10 (2 for instagating, 5 for fighting, and a 10 minute misconduct). He gives the power play back to Grand Rapids when it should have been 4 on 4. This was a critical part of the game and luckily the power play was killed, but it could just as easily turned ugly quick.

I will say that other than this boneheaded fighting penalty, I liked Valabik's play. For instance, early in the first period, Valabik was playing the point at even strength when he got the puck, with the GR defenseman rushing to hit him, he held the puck for a little longer in order to make the play to a teammate skating to an open spot down low. I liked the rookie's poise in the face of opposition; he didn't panic and dump it deep. He had the time; he was never hit by the dfenseman, but I have seen other players just get spooked and fire it in. Valabik managed to make a good play.

In the third, he made a good diving stop at his own blue line to prevent an odd man rush.

Valabik seems to have some good defensive moves, but if he develops a repuation as a goon, he'll never get the benefit of the calls, and he could be missing at key times in the game. I have been very critical of Braydon Coburn taking inopportune penalties late in the game. I have to say the same thing for Valabik in this case. He was playing on the penalty kill for the first time (that I can remember during game), and it is late in the game. He got an opportunity late, and he puts Grand Rapids right back on the power play after it was going to be nullified. Instead of four-on-four, the power play continued because Valabik decided to fight a guy who wasn't even trying to fight.

EDIT: At the game, they announced the 2-5-10 on Valabik. I double checked this against the TV broadcast on my DVR. However, on the scoresheet on the AHL website that I just checked, they gave the 2-5-10 to LaVallee. I'm not sure what the end result was or will be, but regardless, it was not a good fight to get into. I really thought it would go Valabik because in the game and watching the replay, it looked like Valabik went after a guy and started a fight with a guy who wasn't trying to fight.
According to the game sheet, Valabik only got two mins for roughing. I too assumed it was a fighting major when I first saw the game sheet. But apparently that was just an error because it has since been changed.

Anyway, it sounds to me like you're jumping the gun a bit, and being overly critical of Valabik. So he took a 2 min roughing penalty late in a 5-3 game. It's not like he got called for roughing late in a one goal game like the Coburn 2 min penalty you're refering to.

Furthermore, Valabik gets into fights defending teammates, I love that in a player. But what do I know, I also support the NHL players push to end "political correctness" in the NHL by removing the instigator penalty. The way the new NHL is headed, not even enforcers like Boulton will have a job pretty soon.

PS: Valabik was +1 last night. Which makes him now the AHL leader in plus-minus at +13! Not bad for a rookie, aye?


Last edited by Simple_Man: 11-19-2006 at 03:24 AM.
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11-19-2006, 08:10 AM
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Majik, you seem to have forgotten that Boris was boarded as well by GR's Bootland early in the game. He simply got up and gave Bootland a cold "I'm going to kill you" stare as Bootland was escorted to the penalty box.

Valabik has had very good restraint for someone who doesn't mind getting physical, and is the first guy to protect his teammates, something we haven't seen very much of in a few seasons.

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11-20-2006, 01:57 AM
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Originally Posted by Majik1987 View Post
Well, here is what I have to say about Valabik tonight. He needs to learn when to fight and when not to fight. Toward the end of tonight's game (4 minutes to go Wolves up 5-3) against the Grand Rapids Griffins, Derek MacKenzie was blatantly boarded when going into the zone on a short handed chance. The Wolves were about to get back to even after being down a man. Jordan LaVallee was the first in to defend his teammate and got into a mutual fight. As is par for the course in a game, everyone started to find a partner and grab a jersey; no fighting, but just congregating. GR D-Man Ericsson went to grab up with Valabik, and Valabik just starts beating on him. Ericsson was not trying to fight, it was just the usual players grabbing up during a scrum, but because of Valabik's short fuse, and getting into a fight with a guy clearly not trying to fight, Valabik gets the 2-5-10 (2 for instagating, 5 for fighting, and a 10 minute misconduct). He gives the power play back to Grand Rapids when it should have been 4 on 4. This was a critical part of the game and luckily the power play was killed, but it could just as easily turned ugly quick.

I will say that other than this boneheaded fighting penalty, I liked Valabik's play. For instance, early in the first period, Valabik was playing the point at even strength when he got the puck, with the GR defenseman rushing to hit him, he held the puck for a little longer in order to make the play to a teammate skating to an open spot down low. I liked the rookie's poise in the face of opposition; he didn't panic and dump it deep. He had the time; he was never hit by the dfenseman, but I have seen other players just get spooked and fire it in. Valabik managed to make a good play.

In the third, he made a good diving stop at his own blue line to prevent an odd man rush.

Valabik seems to have some good defensive moves, but if he develops a repuation as a goon, he'll never get the benefit of the calls, and he could be missing at key times in the game. I have been very critical of Braydon Coburn taking inopportune penalties late in the game. I have to say the same thing for Valabik in this case. He was playing on the penalty kill for the first time (that I can remember during game), and it is late in the game. He got an opportunity late, and he puts Grand Rapids right back on the power play after it was going to be nullified. Instead of four-on-four, the power play continued because Valabik decided to fight a guy who wasn't even trying to fight.

EDIT: At the game, they announced the 2-5-10 on Valabik. I double checked this against the TV broadcast on my DVR. However, on the scoresheet on the AHL website that I just checked, they gave the 2-5-10 to LaVallee. I'm not sure what the end result was or will be, but regardless, it was not a good fight to get into. I really thought it would go Valabik because in the game and watching the replay, it looked like Valabik went after a guy and started a fight with a guy who wasn't trying to fight.

are you being serious? have you seen that game at all? i have watched the replay of the scrum and let me tell you-it was Ericsson who twice punched Valabik in the face before Valabik decided he had enough and threw two bombs, at this point Ericsson goes down because he was scared he would get beat the hell out of. they both got 2 for roughing. i honestly don't see what the big deal is...

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11-20-2006, 01:59 AM
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Originally Posted by Käptäin Kärppä View Post
Holy Moly, this guy is a monster. 6'2'' and ~240 lbs.

Just went over his stats and so far Valabik's penalty minutes haven't hurt the Wolves that much. Of his 62 PIM, 45 min were part of fighting majors (among others) and game misconducts. I found the following stat interesting: Valabik is tied for 2nd with +12 (leads all rookies.)

Well, perhaps I was wrong about the Big V!
O'Brian is 240?????

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11-20-2006, 06:42 AM
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are you being serious? have you seen that game at all? i have watched the replay of the scrum and let me tell you-it was Ericsson who twice punched Valabik in the face before Valabik decided he had enough and threw two bombs, at this point Ericsson goes down because he was scared he would get beat the hell out of. they both got 2 for roughing. i honestly don't see what the big deal is...
I just saw the highlights, thanks Wolfkeeper. You're correct, Valabik didn't do anything to be critical over. He just went back at Ericsson, then Ericsson seemed to be running away scared, just as you noted. And they both got two mins for roughing.

Here's the game sheet: http://stats.theahl.com/stats/offici...ame_id=1002431

That said, the Griffins already were on a PP when this all happened. None of this created any additional PP time. Though it's true that Quincey boarded MacKenzie just before LaVallee instigated a fight with him. But I don't fault LaVallee for what he did. I think he did the right thing.

To sum things up, Valabik isn't guilty of what Majik1987 accuses him of, enough said!

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