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Columbus vs. Pittsburgh | 9/15 6PM EDT | Preseason Game 1

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Old
09-15-2013, 11:42 PM
  #126
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Originally Posted by major major View Post
Can we keep 8 d on the roster to start the year? Does anyone know the man limits, and if they gradually drop down?
The limit is 23. No rules on how many specific positions they can have. If they wanted 8 defensemen then it just means 1 less forward.

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09-16-2013, 05:06 AM
  #127
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Penguins also plan to observe Vitale, who apparently is feeling effects of punch by Wisniewski.
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09-16-2013, 05:37 AM
  #128
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Umby's weight drop did him good...
That was something I noticed. Umberger certainly was clearly skating faster.

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09-16-2013, 05:43 AM
  #129
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Originally Posted by Sore Loser View Post
If it's for a scoring forward, I don't think anyone will be sad to see one of our 143 third line players get moved. Maybe I'm exaggerating a little bit on that number, but it has to be close...



But see, that's the thing: we do actually have the depth to make a move. We have Johnson, Wisniewski, Tyutin, Nikitin, Erixon, Murray, Goloubef, Savard, and Melart ... all with an argument to play in the NHL. Of this bunch, maybe Savard is the only one that doesn't fit in ... there are nine guys there. How many backups do we need? You move one (say, for argument's sake, Nikitin) and you still have eight guys; with only Savard being the guy you could make an argument against as of this moment. I thought Melart and Murray both looked the part today.

This reasoning only works if we don't have depth. I think we have the depth.
Also your list doesn't include Prout.

The waiver situation with some of those guys, if we could get it confirmed/sorted out, could either make or break the case for a trade. This is presuming there's one to be made. And whether you would get more than a pick or a depth roster player in return.

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09-16-2013, 06:40 AM
  #130
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Originally Posted by Sore Loser View Post
But see, that's the thing: we do actually have the depth to make a move. We have Johnson, Wisniewski, Tyutin, Nikitin, Erixon, Murray, Goloubef, Savard, and Melart ... all with an argument to play in the NHL. Of this bunch, maybe Savard is the only one that doesn't fit in ... there are nine guys there. How many backups do we need? You move one (say, for argument's sake, Nikitin) and you still have eight guys; with only Savard being the guy you could make an argument against as of this moment. I thought Melart and Murray both looked the part today.

This reasoning only works if we don't have depth. I think we have the depth.
Add Prout, and it's nine defensemen.

I think that Murray ends up in the AHL for two reasons. The first is to be able to get him 25-30 minutes a night, which would greatly enhance his development considering the length of time he's been off the ice. Don't forget that it wasn't just last year; he missed 24 games in his draft year as well. The second reason has to do with numbers. If the possibility exists of losing two defensemen to waiver claims in order to keep Murray, or losing one and sending Murray down, I think the latter makes more sense.

To me, Murray is absolutely ahead of what the majority of defenseman of his age (a couple weeks shy of 20 years old) are. But, as of this moment, is he clearly better than seven others on the roster? I don't know that the answer is yes. Even in last night's game, he had a couple of errors that simply can not be made at the NHL level, even if goes start on the third pairing.

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09-16-2013, 06:57 AM
  #131
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Originally Posted by Double-Shift Lassé View Post
Also your list doesn't include Prout.

The waiver situation with some of those guys, if we could get it confirmed/sorted out, could either make or break the case for a trade. This is presuming there's one to be made. And whether you would get more than a pick or a depth roster player in return.
I have emailed Porty and CapGeek- both came back with they are definitely waiver eligible.

I still don't understand why from reading the CBA but it appears to have something to do with the fact they were 20 before the end of the year in which they signed their contract. Neither has exceeded the game limit but it has to do with when the clock started ticking.

Neither source above explained why, just they are.

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09-16-2013, 08:05 AM
  #132
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I have emailed Porty and CapGeek- both came back with they are definitely waiver eligible.

I still don't understand why from reading the CBA but it appears to have something to do with the fact they were 20 before the end of the year in which they signed their contract. Neither has exceeded the game limit but it has to do with when the clock started ticking.

Neither source above explained why, just they are.
Got it. That's potentially bad. I have no way of gauging whether either/neither/both would be claimed, despite the fact that it seems obvious to me that they would.

Which brings us to the Mayor's point about Murray's waiver eligibility vs the other two, and I agree that that's a good enough reason to send him down, combined with the negligible (if any) amount better he is right now than them.

But that's still nine, and you can only keep seven, so what happens next? Will Melart go back to Europe if he doesn't make the big squad? What is Prout's waiver status? Who might be trade-able and for what?

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09-16-2013, 08:53 AM
  #133
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Add Prout, and it's nine defensemen.

I think that Murray ends up in the AHL for two reasons. The first is to be able to get him 25-30 minutes a night, which would greatly enhance his development considering the length of time he's been off the ice. Don't forget that it wasn't just last year; he missed 24 games in his draft year as well. The second reason has to do with numbers. If the possibility exists of losing two defensemen to waiver claims in order to keep Murray, or losing one and sending Murray down, I think the latter makes more sense.

To me, Murray is absolutely ahead of what the majority of defenseman of his age (a couple weeks shy of 20 years old) are. But, as of this moment, is he clearly better than seven others on the roster? I don't know that the answer is yes. Even in last night's game, he had a couple of errors that simply can not be made at the NHL level, even if goes start on the third pairing.
Interestingly enough other teams have managed to find around 20 minutes a night for elite first years.

I don't find the minutes thing much of a concern as the rest of the world does. They seem obsessed by "OMG he NEEDS 20 minutes". He could very well end in the AHL for a couple of reasons. And all of those are driven by others being better than him and not by some arbitrary minutes number. He's coming off an injury, as we all know, so he could very well not be on of the top 6 d-men (I doubt he's up here if he's #7).

Hopefully he's playing tomorrow at the home game so I can see him and make more of a judgement.

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09-16-2013, 09:04 AM
  #134
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Got it. That's potentially bad. I have no way of gauging whether either/neither/both would be claimed, despite the fact that it seems obvious to me that they would.
The waiver situation tends to be a bit overblown, baring a major issue with teams and injuries.

We get concerned every year and hardly anyone around the league gets claimed, never mind one of our players.

Prout seems to be the biggest risk, but I'm not sure it's much of one.

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09-16-2013, 09:04 AM
  #135
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Originally Posted by Double-Shift Lassé View Post
Got it. That's potentially bad. I have no way of gauging whether either/neither/both would be claimed, despite the fact that it seems obvious to me that they would.

Which brings us to the Mayor's point about Murray's waiver eligibility vs the other two, and I agree that that's a good enough reason to send him down, combined with the negligible (if any) amount better he is right now than them.

But that's still nine, and you can only keep seven, so what happens next? Will Melart go back to Europe if he doesn't make the big squad? What is Prout's waiver status? Who might be trade-able and for what?

Here is CapGeeks response via their waiver calculator

he is waiver exempt until he plays 36 games this season

Dalton Prout's signing age for the purposes of waivers is recorded in our database as 21 while the first season of his first NHL contract is recorded as 2011-12. We have also determined that he was eligible for a reduction in the number of NHL games played required for waiver eligibility (as noted in Exhibit 16, Transition Rules, of the CBA) by virtue of his contract and playing status during the 2012-13 lockout-shortened season.

Here's Savard:

David Savard's signing age for the purposes of waivers is recorded in our database as 20 while the first season of his first NHL contract is recorded as 2010-11. We have also determined that he was eligible for a reduction in the number of NHL games played required for waiver eligibility (as noted in Exhibit 16, Transition Rules, of the CBA) by virtue of his contract and playing status during the 2012-13 lockout-shortened season.

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09-16-2013, 09:32 AM
  #136
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Originally Posted by Double-Shift Lassé View Post
... Will Melart go back to Europe if he doesn't make the big squad?
I believe he is signed to a two-way, so he should be prepared for the possibility that he might start out in Springfield.

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09-16-2013, 10:16 AM
  #137
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Interestingly enough other teams have managed to find around 20 minutes a night for elite first years.

I don't find the minutes thing much of a concern as the rest of the world does. They seem obsessed by "OMG he NEEDS 20 minutes". He could very well end in the AHL for a couple of reasons. And all of those are driven by others being better than him and not by some arbitrary minutes number. He's coming off an injury, as we all know, so he could very well not be on of the top 6 d-men (I doubt he's up here if he's #7).

Hopefully he's playing tomorrow at the home game so I can see him and make more of a judgement.
The closest comp I could find going into this year is Alex Pietrangelo. Drafted in 2008, then played only 79 games the ensuing two years due to injuries. He came in in 2010 and slotted right in on the top pairing.

Heres's where it breaks down though. St. Louis had a fairly thin blueline that was full of guys who didn't have big-time upside. His competition for minutes were Barret Jackman, Erik Johnson (then Kevin Shattenkirk), Eric Brewer, Carlo Colaiacovo, Roman Polak, and Nikita Nikitin. Pietrangelo was clearly a top-four guy on that team even considering his recent injuries.

Another guy drafted the same year was Drew Doughty, who stepped in as an 18-year-old. His competition for ice time was Kyle Quincey, Matt Greene, Sean O'Donnell, Jack Johnson, and Denis Gauthier. Zach Bogosian competed as an 18-year-old with Ron Hainsey, Tobias Enstrom, Mathieu Schneider (way past his prime), Niclas Havelid, Nathan Oystrick, Garnet Exelby, and Boris Valabik.

The key between all of those youngsters coming in is that, on their teams at the time, they were clear-cut NHLers because they were in the top four almost by default. In my opinion, Murray isn't in that position right now, and probably won't be by the end of the year.

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09-16-2013, 11:11 AM
  #138
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Seriously? I liked Savard tonight.
Granted, I watched the DVR version and did some skimming. And while Savard wasn't nearly as bad as his worst performances last year, I just don't see a player who has a spot in this lineup, and long-term, I see PP specialist as the limit for his potential (it must be said that I like Savard on the point, but for our system Goloubef is the better fit IMO).

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Murray was pretty meh for me most of the game...not over matched, but made a lot of rookie mistakes with the puck, just right place, right time for the GWG
Right place right time? It's not like it was a tap-in. Kid showed poise on that goal.

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09-16-2013, 11:24 AM
  #139
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Originally Posted by Mayor Bee View Post
To me, Murray is absolutely ahead of what the majority of defenseman of his age (a couple weeks shy of 20 years old) are. But, as of this moment, is he clearly better than seven others on the roster? I don't know that the answer is yes. Even in last night's game, he had a couple of errors that simply can not be made at the NHL level, even if goes start on the third pairing.
I agree with this. Is Murray good enough to make this roster? I think that probably goes without saying. But it seems that other guys who are waiver eligible are also good enough to make this team. It's not that I'm afraid of Murray being "rushed" or "Brule'd" or whatever the stigma is; it's purely a numbers game. And if we can avoid losing assets while grooming our top prospect (which we have never had the luxury of doing), then I think it's hard to justify exposing guys to waivers.

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09-16-2013, 11:30 AM
  #140
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Right place right time? It's not like it was a tap-in. Kid showed poise on that goal.
Agreed

First of all, right place, right time is a good thing. Often referred to as "Hockey Sense" and/or going to the net.

Secondly, he put it IN the net. Something that's been sorely lacking.

Too much "wide of the net" and too often "he just couldn't finish".

Kudos on the score.

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09-16-2013, 11:42 AM
  #141
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Biggest thing I can say is that I don't have a care in the world if Savard gets claimed. Would have more sore feelings about losing Goloubef.
See, of the 4 defensmen fighting for 1-2 spots, (All played last night), I'd say Goloubef was the least impressive.

Not sure how much of that came from Murray and Savard playing with NHL vets, but that's just my .02

If I had to rank them based on play last night.

Murray
Savard
Melart
Goloubef

But nobody permanently distinguished themselves last night by any means.

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09-16-2013, 11:49 AM
  #142
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Got it. That's potentially bad. I have no way of gauging whether either/neither/both would be claimed, despite the fact that it seems obvious to me that they would.

Which brings us to the Mayor's point about Murray's waiver eligibility vs the other two, and I agree that that's a good enough reason to send him down, combined with the negligible (if any) amount better he is right now than them.

But that's still nine, and you can only keep seven, so what happens next? Will Melart go back to Europe if he doesn't make the big squad? What is Prout's waiver status? Who might be trade-able and for what?
I think you can keep 8 and rotate them in and out. But if there's no injuries that would mean a lot of sitting, so it might not be a long term solution. Melart will play in the AHL, and Murray could start there too.

NHL: Johnson, Tyutin, Prout, Nikitin, Erixon, Wiz.
7/8: Golo, Savard
AHL: Murray, Melart

Personally I prefer to have Murray playing in the NHL, but for a month I don't mind him in the AHL.

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09-16-2013, 12:05 PM
  #143
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Right place right time? It's not like it was a tap-in. Kid showed poise on that goal.
fortunate rebounds that come into the slot is not hockey sense...at least to me...its right place, right time

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09-16-2013, 12:07 PM
  #144
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See, of the 4 defensmen fighting for 1-2 spots, (All played last night), I'd say Goloubef was the least impressive.

Not sure how much of that came from Murray and Savard playing with NHL vets, but that's just my .02

If I had to rank them based on play last night.

Murray
Savard
Melart
Goloubef

But nobody permanently distinguished themselves last night by any means.
i can agree with that list...melart's hooking call and the fact he really didn't do anything in his fight left me sour on him...but he still had really good positioning and skating for the most part...

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09-16-2013, 12:11 PM
  #145
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fortunate rebounds that come into the slot is not hockey sense...at least to me...its right place, right time
Are you sure you're talking about the GWG here?

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09-16-2013, 12:13 PM
  #146
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Are you sure you're talking about the GWG here?
unless i'm completely off my rocker (its happened) didn't it squirt out from the goal and right in front of Murray?

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09-16-2013, 12:14 PM
  #147
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unless i'm completely off my rocker (its happened) didn't it squirt out from the goal and right in front of Murray?
No, RJ passed the puck to him.


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09-16-2013, 12:15 PM
  #148
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No, it was passed to him.
fair nuff...i'm an idiot then i swore it came back to him off a rebound

and the worst part, that happened right in front of me!

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09-16-2013, 12:22 PM
  #149
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I was very impressed with Murray. I absolutely think he one of our best 6 defensemen. He looks effortless to me, like the game slows down for him. Sure he made a couple of errors, but those will sort themselves out. He looks like he belongs to me. On the GWG, he knew exactly where he needed to join the rush. You don't teach that, it's instinct. Check out twitter, apparently Wiz was pretty impressed with Murray. I would be shocked if he isn't on the club come opening night.

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09-16-2013, 12:26 PM
  #150
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The closest comp I could find going into this year is Alex Pietrangelo. Drafted in 2008, then played only 79 games the ensuing two years due to injuries. He came in in 2010 and slotted right in on the top pairing.
Sorry man, I'm bored. All I'm getting out of this is your comparison of our perceived depth versus your opinion of what type of minutes you think he should be playing.

He doesn't have to play 1/2 up here. We have depth, but I find that depth debatable from the perspective of top to elite level.

There is room up here if he's ready. I don't care if he plays 14 minutes a night up here.

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