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Most useless or inaccurate stat in hockey?

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Old
09-09-2013, 12:30 PM
  #176
Jason Lewis
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hal 9000 View Post
There are no bad stats, just bad analysts.

I love this line.

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Old
09-09-2013, 05:54 PM
  #177
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Originally Posted by hatterson View Post
First, If something is 100% team based then it literally wouldn't matter what goalie you put behind a team. If that were true, I (with a grand total of 0 minutes of ice hockey goalie experience) could suit up and pull the same stats as Lundqvist. I think we can both agree how absurd that is.

Second, if you can't use SV%, GAA and Wins to compare goalies, which metrics do you suppose should be used?
We are in the age of VORP, QB Ratings, WPA/G, OPS(really the proven effectiveness and simplicity of the stat is why this was included), DIPS, etc.

The fact that most of the widely used stats in hockey are so bad means no-one is trying, we have this post and almost every common statistic has been attacked at one point or another, the leagues reporting is completely biased and overall a joke.

So to answer your question until better statistics are around in hockey, I just hope people continue to watch the sport to compare players, maybe it is just me though.

[Edit: To not offend the hard working amateur stat gurus that can be applauded for most of the analysis in sports, My point on no-one trying was directed towards the league; its hard to analyse anything using bad source info]

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Old
09-09-2013, 05:57 PM
  #178
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Quote:
Originally Posted by outoftune View Post
So to answer your question until better statistics are around in hockey, I just hope people continue to watch the sport to compare players, maybe it is just me though.
"Watching the sport" suffers similar biases when comparing players - I go into this in depth earlier in the thread and elsewhere in this forum.

EDIT: here's the most accessible comment:
http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...php?p=70567617

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Old
09-09-2013, 07:41 PM
  #179
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hatterson View Post
First, If something is 100% team based then it literally wouldn't matter what goalie you put behind a team. If that were true, I (with a grand total of 0 minutes of ice hockey goalie experience) could suit up and pull the same stats as Lundqvist. I think we can both agree how absurd that is.
Wins are 100% team based. The goalie is part of the team. The team wins or loses the game

The rest of the goalie stats are player based. The player makes the save or not, which affects his percentage and average. Of course the team affects his stats, but that goes for all stats, so thatís nothing new. Wins are the only stat (that I can think), which is 100% team based, yet attributed to an individual. Itís the most useless stat out there. Iíve never understood why only the goalie gets the win stat.

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Old
09-09-2013, 08:28 PM
  #180
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cawz View Post
Wins are 100% team based. The goalie is part of the team. The team wins or loses the game
Granted, although that's typically not what someone means when they use the phrase "team-based" to disparage a statistic's worth.

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Old
09-09-2013, 09:20 PM
  #181
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cawz View Post
Wins are 100% team based. The goalie is part of the team. The team wins or loses the game

The rest of the goalie stats are player based. The player makes the save or not, which affects his percentage and average. Of course the team affects his stats, but that goes for all stats, so thatís nothing new. Wins are the only stat (that I can think), which is 100% team based, yet attributed to an individual. Itís the most useless stat out there. Iíve never understood why only the goalie gets the win stat.
Sv% and GAA are both again team based stats..... GAA is the amount of goals scored on a team, if we called it "goals for" or "goals against" it would be considered a team stat not a goalie statistic.... and Sv% a made up of goals and shots aloud, (1 - # of goals/shots aloud) both of which I would again say are team statistics, maybe I'm in the minority here

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09-09-2013, 09:23 PM
  #182
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Quote:
Originally Posted by outoftune View Post
Sv% and GAA are both again team based stats..... GAA is the amount of goals scored on a team, if we called it "goals for" or "goals against" it would be considered a team stat not a goalie statistic.... and Sv% a made up of goals and shots aloud, (1 - # of goals/shots aloud) both of which I would again say are team statistics, maybe I'm in the minority here
Yes, teams are involved in both statistics (although I haven't seen anyone in this thread claim otherwise).

You said that they were 100% team based - is that the claim that you're defending here?

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09-09-2013, 10:23 PM
  #183
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Quote:
Originally Posted by outoftune View Post
Sv% and GAA are both again team based stats..... GAA is the amount of goals scored on a team, if we called it "goals for" or "goals against" it would be considered a team stat not a goalie statistic.... and Sv% a made up of goals and shots aloud, (1 - # of goals/shots aloud) both of which I would again say are team statistics, maybe I'm in the minority here
GAA is the amount of goals scored on a goalie. When a goal is scored, There is generally 4 people who get credited - the 2 assisters, the goal scorer and the goalie who was beaten. Every other players on the ice gets a + or - since they are on the ice and have part to play with the goal being scored, but individually 4 people get stats credited (or discredited, in terms of the goalie) to them. The only real difference and goalies have their stats averaged over 60 mins and players stats are noted as absolutes.

Team GA and GF are a team stat, since its every goal scored on and by the team.

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Old
09-10-2013, 04:11 AM
  #184
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So +/- is apparently a horrible stat.

But if your looking at two players and they are pretty similar. But one has a -20 and the other a +20, who do you pick?

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Old
09-10-2013, 08:13 AM
  #185
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thumper17 View Post
So +/- is apparently a horrible stat.

But if your looking at two players and they are pretty similar. But one has a -20 and the other a +20, who do you pick?
You'd have to define "pretty similar"

What type of players are each playing against? Who are they playing with? What type of situations are they deployed in? What's the goaltending behind each been?

Without additional information you can't say which one you'd pick.

Quote:
Originally Posted by outoftune View Post
We are in the age of VORP, QB Ratings, WPA/G, OPS(really the proven effectiveness and simplicity of the stat is why this was included), DIPS, etc.

The fact that most of the widely used stats in hockey are so bad means no-one is trying, we have this post and almost every common statistic has been attacked at one point or another, the leagues reporting is completely biased and overall a joke.

So to answer your question until better statistics are around in hockey, I just hope people continue to watch the sport to compare players, maybe it is just me though.

[Edit: To not offend the hard working amateur stat gurus that can be applauded for most of the analysis in sports, My point on no-one trying was directed towards the league; its hard to analyse anything using bad source info]
Simply because someone attacks a stat does not mean it is useless. I can point out flaws or issues with each of the stats you mentioned, that doesn't mean they're invalid, it just means that you can't use any of them as a singular source of information about a player.

I'm also not sure what bias has to do with it, unless you believe that the league has sent some form of instructions to various rinks to artificially inflate or deflate shot counts. Of the "basic" stats for goalies/players, shots is the only one that involves any form of judgement, and even that is tempered by the fact that half your games are played away from your home rink, and in every game both teams are judged by the same shot keeper.

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Old
09-10-2013, 11:01 AM
  #186
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I am shocked to see that GWG hasn't been mentioned yet in this entire thread. It is a completely useless stat.

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Old
09-10-2013, 04:19 PM
  #187
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Puck Luck

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Old
09-13-2013, 04:45 PM
  #188
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Estimated_Prophet View Post
I am shocked to see that GWG hasn't been mentioned yet in this entire thread. It is a completely useless stat.
Totally agree

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ziggy66 View Post
Puck Luck
Totally disagree.

Puck Luck is probably a stat that's practically single handidly won me hockey pools. I have made mammoth trades taking advantage of players i had that were "hot", no longer in situations of "expected improvement", and scoring at a high clip, due to puck luck research.

It's probably my favorite, at least for a "warning" on whats likely to come.

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Old
09-13-2013, 06:34 PM
  #189
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Easily the worst not in only hockey, but all sports.

"Clutch-factor". It simply doesn't exist.

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Old
09-13-2013, 07:35 PM
  #190
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Easily the worst not in only hockey, but all sports.

"Clutch-factor". It simply doesn't exist.
Last time I checked that wasn't a "stat".

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Old
09-13-2013, 08:01 PM
  #191
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Team blocked shots. Useful for an individual, but as a team it means you spend too much time in your own zone getting hurt because you can't clear the damn puck.

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09-13-2013, 09:14 PM
  #192
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Giveaways and takeaways. Just very inaccurate from building to building.

Toronto gives up the puck a whole lot more at home than on the road and it's not even close.

Colorado is a takeaway haven. It's not wonder why their forwards are usually on top of the list for takeaways.

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Old
09-14-2013, 02:33 PM
  #193
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I think stats like Hits and Blocked Shots aren't useless. They do tells us a bit about a player and his style, even if they don't tell us a ton about his effectiveness.

For the most part guys who are really high in hits are indeed physical players, and guys who are really low aren't. Thus if there's a player you've never seen before, a look at those stats can give you some information about what type of player he is.

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Old
09-14-2013, 06:50 PM
  #194
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+/- is often misused by people, but is also pretty useless

Hits, takeaways, giveaways, blocked shots (like the guy mentioned above) Give an indication about playing style, but shouldnt give indication about value or performance.

These stats are often not understood and misused.

Hitting, takeaways and blocked shots all happen off the puck and having high totals in these categories may mean poor possession play.

Giveaways are often seen as a "bad" stat, but giveaways happen when you have possession of the puck. Which is why youll see players that love to have the puck (and are often top talents) with high giveaway totals.

Not useless, but misinterepted

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Old
09-14-2013, 08:26 PM
  #195
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yosemite Sam View Post
This. I've never understood the relevance of ponts.
Doesn't that mean bridges in French?

+/- You can be a very good player on a bad team and be negative. You can be a poor defensive player on a high scoring team and be around zero.


Last edited by adsfan: 09-14-2013 at 08:35 PM.
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Old
09-15-2013, 02:03 AM
  #196
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adsfan View Post
...+/- You can be a very good player on a bad team and be negative. You can be a poor defensive player on a high scoring team and be around zero.
Quote:
Player Team Pos 1st NHL Season Last NHL Season GP G A P +/- PIM PP SH GW GT OT Shots
1-30 of 6259 results. 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7-12 | Next | Last
1 Larry Robinson D 1972-1973 1991-1992 1,384 208 750 958 +730 793 66 3 29 2 0 2,338
2 Bobby Orr D 1966-1967 1978-1979 657 270 645 915 +597 953 73 15 26
3 Ray Bourque D 1979-1980 2000-2001 1,612 410 1,169 1,579 +528 1,141 173 16 60 14 4 6,206
4 Wayne Gretzky C 1979-1980 1998-1999 1,487 894 1,963 2,857 +518 577 204 73 91 12 1 5,089
http://www.nhl.com/ice/careerstats.h...dersAllSeasons

Larry Robinson is a great defensive player, but you can be a great offensive player on a great team and have a great +/-.

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Old
09-15-2013, 10:57 AM
  #197
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Not going to go through the whole thread, but GAA for me. I'd rather look at SV%.

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Old
09-16-2013, 09:38 AM
  #198
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Average shifts per game. We have average ice time. You do the math.

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Old
09-16-2013, 02:23 PM
  #199
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FO %. How many faceoff wins lead to goals or prevention of goals?

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Old
09-16-2013, 02:45 PM
  #200
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BNHL View Post
FO %. How many faceoff wins lead to goals or prevention of goals?
Hard to measure, but it does mean you have the puck more often than not...

Faceoffs in either zone are important, but neutral zone faceoffs are less meaningful...

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