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Bo Horvat vs the World (Nichushkin mostly)

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Old
09-16-2013, 04:43 PM
  #101
Vankiller Whale
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Originally Posted by Please Let Us Win View Post
As was Jan Bulis. Of course I didn't actually watch the games like most of you did.
Just saying, I'm not sure where the idea that Nichushkin will disappear in the playoffs comes from.

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09-16-2013, 04:52 PM
  #102
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Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
Just saying, I'm not sure where the idea that Nichushkin will disappear in the playoffs comes from.
You really don't know where the idea of some of our recent Euro stars disappearing has come from? More importantly, who cares about the KHL playoffs.

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09-16-2013, 04:58 PM
  #103
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Originally Posted by Please Let Us Win View Post
You really don't know where the idea of some of our recent Euro stars disappearing has come from? More importantly, who cares about the KHL playoffs.
Is playoff success predetermined by nationality? As to who cares about the KHL playoffs, I would presume the players playing in the KHL do.

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09-16-2013, 05:00 PM
  #104
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Originally Posted by Please Let Us Win View Post
You really don't know where the idea of some of our recent Euro stars disappearing has come from? More importantly, who cares about the KHL playoffs.
It's the 2nd best league in the world. Success in the playoffs there is a much better indicator than success in the playoffs in the OHL, something lots of people are basing their praise for Horvat on.

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09-16-2013, 05:14 PM
  #105
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Originally Posted by NuxFan09 View Post
It's the 2nd best league in the world. Success in the playoffs there is a much better indicator than success in the playoffs in the OHL, something lots of people are basing their praise for Horvat on.
Why?

Success in the KHL playoffs has little bearing on the NHL playoffs, different rink, different style, most KHLers are unlikely to ever lace up skates in the NHL (VKW knows the stats, there are 30 Russians in the entire NHL).

Neither are good indicators of NHL playoff success, hell, NHL playoff stats aren't a very good indicator of future playoff success either.


Success in the KHL playoffs means nothing to the NHL, same as OHL success...for me its about player type, and Horvat type players have better success in the NHL playoffs....it's his style of game. I'm not trying to say VN can't or won't impact NHL playoff games, because he can and likely will, it's about the totality of said impact.

Scoring in the playoffs is great, but if you're getting outscored or -14 while going PPG, the impact saws itself off.

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09-16-2013, 05:23 PM
  #106
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Originally Posted by arsmaster View Post
Why?

Success in the KHL playoffs has little bearing on the NHL playoffs, different rink, different style, most KHLers are unlikely to ever lace up skates in the NHL (VKW knows the stats, there are 30 Russians in the entire NHL).

Neither are good indicators of NHL playoff success, hell, NHL playoff stats aren't a very good indicator of playoff success either.


Success in the KHL playoffs means nothing to the NHL, same as OHL success...for me its about player type, and Horvat type players have better success in the NHL playoffs....it's his style of game. I'm not trying to say VN can't or won't impact NHL playoff games, because he can and likely will, it's about the totality of said impact.

Scoring in the playoffs is great, but if you're getting outscored or -14 while going PPG, the impact saws itself off.

To add this solid post, the OHL is regarded as the best CHL league, and the CHL the best feeder league in the world. So while the OHL playoffs aren't a direct predictor of future playoff success in the NHL (nothing is), it is about the best developmental league given the transition displayed by its young players. Success there is a very good thing.

30 Russians in the entire NHL is quite humorous to me. That stat is staggering.

But like you said, it's the style of game. With that in mind, Horvat seems tailor made.

Total impact being also a great point. Let's see what Nich does. I'll definitely be catching some DAL games this year.

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09-16-2013, 05:27 PM
  #107
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Originally Posted by arsmaster View Post
Why?

Success in the KHL playoffs has little bearing on the NHL playoffs, different rink, different style, most KHLers are unlikely to ever lace up skates in the NHL (VKW knows the stats, there are 30 Russians in the entire NHL).

Neither are good indicators of NHL playoff success, hell, NHL playoff stats aren't a very good indicator of future playoff success either.


Success in the KHL playoffs means nothing to the NHL, same as OHL success...for me its about player type, and Horvat type players have better success in the NHL playoffs....it's his style of game. I'm not trying to say VN can't or won't impact NHL playoff games, because he can and likely will, it's about the totality of said impact.

Scoring in the playoffs is great, but if you're getting outscored or -14 while going PPG, the impact saws itself off.
I pretty much agree with everything you said here, I'm just not sure where the notion that Nichushkin would disappear in the playoffs is coming from. If he were a soft/skilled type player then maybe I could understand it(not that I'd necessarily agree), or if he had been invisible during his playoff run in the KHL, but neither of those are true.

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09-16-2013, 05:42 PM
  #108
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Originally Posted by NuxFan09 View Post
I really wanted Nichushkin at #9, especially since we traded Schneider to get that pick. I felt sick to my stomach when they drafted Horvat instead and was frustrated for a long time after draft day.

If Nichushkin goes on to light it up for the Stars in his rookie season and becomes a big time player in the future, that's going to be a tough one to live down.

2 goals for Nichushkin in his first preseason game? Like another poster said: your move, Horvat.
How about your move horvat over the next 2-3 years, preferably in important games.

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09-16-2013, 05:51 PM
  #109
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Originally Posted by arsmaster View Post
Why?

Success in the KHL playoffs has little bearing on the NHL playoffs, different rink, different style, most KHLers are unlikely to ever lace up skates in the NHL (VKW knows the stats, there are 30 Russians in the entire NHL).

Neither are good indicators of NHL playoff success, hell, NHL playoff stats aren't a very good indicator of future playoff success either.


Success in the KHL playoffs means nothing to the NHL, same as OHL success...for me its about player type, and Horvat type players have better success in the NHL playoffs....it's his style of game. I'm not trying to say VN can't or won't impact NHL playoff games, because he can and likely will, it's about the totality of said impact.

Scoring in the playoffs is great, but if you're getting outscored or -14 while going PPG, the impact saws itself off.
Fair enough. I won't argue with this.

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09-16-2013, 05:53 PM
  #110
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Originally Posted by Bleach Clean View Post
I felt the exact opposite of this. I cringed at the thought of Nich being taken at #9. Not because I think he will be outright bust, no, but because I wanted a more complete player to build around (among other things).

The second point is something I want to address: Say Nichushkin does become a "big time" player, it won't be tough to live down if Horvat also becomes a very good player. Nichushkin's success alone does not undermine the Horvat pick. He was still picked top10 for a reason. Nor does Nichushkin have to absolutely bust for people to feel good with the Horvat pick. It's not about extremes, it's about what building block the Canucks preferred.
What a rosy, Pollyanna way of looking at things.

If Nichushkin does become a big time player, it will be another nail in Gillis' coffin. Just because there is reasoning that makes sense does not mean it's the right decision. Compelling arguments are meaningless, results matter.

You want BPA. That is how you judge a pick and a franchise. Everything else is fluff.

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09-16-2013, 05:57 PM
  #111
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Originally Posted by Diamonddog01 View Post
What a rosy, Pollyanna way of looking at things.

If Nichushkin does become a big time player, it will be another nail in Gillis' coffin. Just because there is reasoning that makes sense does not mean it's the right decision.

You want BPA. That is how you judge a pick and a franchise. Everything else is fluff.
Personally I think that is exactly what that means.

When weighing the pros and cons, the whole "KHL" factor is no small concern.

Especially when you're basically forced to give up your #1 goalie in the process.

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09-16-2013, 06:02 PM
  #112
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Personally I think that is exactly what that means.

When weighing the pros and cons, the whole "KHL" factor is no small concern.

Especially when you're basically forced to give up your #1 goalie in the process.
This is a big factor on why Horvat was picked, not due to the fact he was the BPA.

I disagree strongly that a compelling argument means that it was the right decision. They are not one automatically one and the same.

I can make a compelling argument for why the Ballard trade had to be made. I can make a compelling argument for why Luongo's contract was a great idea at the time. Does that make either of those decisions good ones, or the right ones?

This is classic Gillis snake-oil.

For non-hockey examples, I can make a compelling argument as to why loosening banking regulations is a great idea. Does that make that the right decision? Given how that cost the US in 2008, probably not.

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09-16-2013, 06:03 PM
  #113
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Originally Posted by Diamonddog01 View Post
What a rosy, Pollyanna way of looking at things.

If Nichushkin does become a big time player, it will be another nail in Gillis' coffin. Just because there is reasoning that makes sense does not mean it's the right decision.

You want BPA. That is how you judge a pick and a franchise. Everything else is fluff.

Your whole post is fluff. If Horvat _also_ becomes a great player, then what does it matter? It's only if Horvat busts/becomes marginal and Nichushkin becomes an impact player that one can see the pick as a failure.

Nichushkin becoming that player, in of itself, does not mean much. Not without taking into account what happens with Horvat.

And one thing to note: BPA at the time of the draft is one thing, BPA beyond is largely a factor of development. Most of what each player becomes happens after this point. Otherwise, you would not have a Giroux type player at 22, and so on.

Edit: Gillis "snake-oil"?... Hmmm, seems like you have an axe to grind with the GM.

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Old
09-16-2013, 06:10 PM
  #114
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BPA is subjective.

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Old
09-16-2013, 06:33 PM
  #115
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Originally Posted by Bleach Clean View Post
Your whole post is fluff. If Horvat _also_ becomes a great player, then what does it matter? It's only if Horvat busts/becomes marginal and Nichushkin becomes an impact player that one can see the pick as a failure.

Nichushkin becoming that player, in of itself, does not mean much. Not without taking into account what happens with Horvat.

And one thing to note: BPA at the time of the draft is one thing, BPA beyond is largely a factor of development. Most of what each player becomes happens after this point. Otherwise, you would not have a Giroux type player at 22, and so on.

Edit: Gillis "snake-oil"?... Hmmm, seems like you have an axe to grind with the GM.
How rude.

Your 2nd line is exactly my point. It will come down to who is better - and yes, judging BPA or greater value is subjective. But if Nich becomes a player, who is deemed to be better by the majority, then the point stands.

I don't have an axe to grind with our GM, I have an axe to grind with posters who parrot his nonsense and pretend as though it's sound reasoning simply because it's convincing. It's demagoguery. His recent decisions have been terrible, regardless of how prettily he justifies them.

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09-16-2013, 06:34 PM
  #116
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How rude.

Your 2nd line is exactly my point. It will come down to who is better - and yes, judging BPA or greater value is subjective. But if Nich becomes a player, who is deemed to be better by the majority, then the point stands.

I don't have an axe to grind with our GM, I have an axe to grind with posters who parrot his nonsense and pretend as though it's sound reasoning simply because it's convincing. It's demagoguery. His recent decisions have been terrible, regardless of how prettily he justifies them.
I just imagined you as an Olsen twin from Full House.

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09-16-2013, 06:39 PM
  #117
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I just imagined you as an Olsen twin from Full House.
I identify quite strongly with "Uncle Joey".

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09-16-2013, 06:51 PM
  #118
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I just imagined you as an Olsen twin from Full House.
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Originally Posted by Diamonddog01 View Post
I identify quite strongly with "Uncle Joey".
Both of you 2... Cut-it-out

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09-16-2013, 06:51 PM
  #119
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Originally Posted by Diamonddog01 View Post
How rude.

Your 2nd line is exactly my point. It will come down to who is better - and yes, judging BPA or greater value is subjective. But if Nich becomes a player, who is deemed to be better by the majority, then the point stands.

I don't have an axe to grind with our GM, I have an axe to grind with posters who parrot his nonsense and pretend as though it's sound reasoning simply because it's convincing. It's demagoguery. His recent decisions have been terrible, regardless of how prettily he justifies them.


I guess I didn't take too kindly to this:

Quote:
What a rosy, Pollyanna way of looking at things.
Was that supposed to be polite?

"Better by the majority" will also be subjective DD. If Horvat goes 60 points with great defense, and Nich goes 70 points with not-so-good defense, who is better?

Demagoguery? Umm wow. I'm the one displaying the moderate viewpoint in my post addressed to NuxFan09, not you. Nor do I view the people I am speaking to on this board as less educated. If anything, the "this is X and the other stuff is fluff" stuff is the closest thing to demagoguery. Besides, what am I parroting with my support for Horvat? I can like Horvat because I like Horvat. People need to stop seeing a bias where there isn't one. Any poster on here can come to their own conclusion without being beholden to Gillis's viewpoint. Just like you have with regards to Nichushkin. It is possible.

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09-16-2013, 06:56 PM
  #120
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Originally Posted by Bleach Clean View Post
"Better by the majority" will also be subjective DD. If Horvat goes 60 points with great defense, and Nich goes 70 points with not-so-good defense, who is better? .
Certainly true. Guess we'll find out, if Horvat becomes a 40 point player with great defense, and Nich goes 70 - that's where things become a bit more clear-cut.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bleach Clean View Post
Demagoguery? Umm wow. I'm the one displaying the moderate viewpoint in my post addressed to NuxFan09, not you. Nor do I view the people I am speaking to on this board as less educated. If anything, the "this is X and the other stuff is fluff" stuff is the closest thing to demagoguery. Besides, what am I parroting with my support for Horvat? I can like Horvat because I like Horvat. People need to stop seeing a bias where there isn't one. Any poster on here can come to their own conclusion without being beholden to Gillis's viewpoint. Just like you have with regards to Nichushkin. It is possible.
That wasn't necessarily directed at you, but I do see a lot of posters justifying some of the poor organizational moves made over the past few years.

As for this particular decision - I recognize that it's currently personal preference, only time will tell whether it was the right move or not.

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09-16-2013, 07:01 PM
  #121
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Jesus H Christ.

WTF

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09-16-2013, 07:02 PM
  #122
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About playoffs KHL
nichushkin scores more points than Malkin/Ovie/Kuznetsov at this age

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09-16-2013, 07:05 PM
  #123
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Horvat vs Nichushkin will be an interesting debate for years I suspect.
Once you get outside of the top 5 picks or so it becomes a bit of a crapshoot as to who is the better player to pick. I'm satisfied that Gillis made an informed decision as to who the better player was and I'm ok with the decision regardless of how it turns out.
The real issue with me is Schneider vs Horvat. I know the deal was more complicated than that but I still believe that we needed to get more than a 9th overall pick (be it Nichushkin or Horvat) to part with Schneider. That's more the issue for me than the Nichushkin vs Horvat debate, even though that will be interesting to look at over the years.

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09-16-2013, 07:09 PM
  #124
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Pretty lame that Fonzie is putting Horvat with Sestito and Weise tonight. Excellent position to put him in to succeed

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09-16-2013, 07:11 PM
  #125
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Originally Posted by Diamonddog01 View Post
Certainly true. Guess we'll find out, if Horvat becomes a 40 point player with great defense, and Nich goes 70 - that's where things become a bit more clear-cut.

That wasn't necessarily directed at you, but I do see a lot of posters justifying some of the poor organizational moves made over the past few years.

As for this particular decision - I recognize that it's currently personal preference, only time will tell whether it was the right move or not.

Let me be clear: I hate the Schneider deal itself. Still do. I've never been a fan of VAN's depth drafting, and have argued with some people about it. Gillis is not perfect. That said, I'm certainly one that has seen the logic behind the majority of his moves. Not all, but the majority. So I may give him more leeway than others do. That said, I like this player. On his own. Gillis has little if anything to do with it.

Some very good prospect evaluators on this board also like the Horvat pick, so there's both sides to this. But the cool thing is we get to see what Nich is like right away. So at least we can both look forward to that.

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