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Old
11-20-2006, 03:50 PM
  #51
Qui Gon Dave
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Well, thats disappointing. But I'm sure Carbo has a plan. Hopefully it's a little more adventurous than keeping most of the lines the same, putting someone else with Kovy and Sammy and playing 7 dmen, but it wouldn't suprise me if thats what happens. I suppose there is the chance of a trade on the horizon, but it's difficult to specualte on what effect that would have on the team as we don't know who would be coming or going. So a change of lines seems likely. But personally, I hope Carbo isn't going to go through the roster playing every player in the organisation with Kovy/Sammy until something clicks. Sure, we could hit the jackpot and create a fantastic line, but the season is only so long. If we are giving everyone 3/4 games as a trial, it could be a lot of games before somthing actually works. Hopefully this is going to be a bit of a wake up call for a few people. I'd like to see something close to the following lines to see if we can kick start a few players:

Ryder/Lats - Koivu - Kovalev
Perezhogin - Bonk - Johnson
Samsonov - Plekanec - Latendresse/Ryder
Begin - Murray

- Kovy and Koivu have proven they can play well together in the past and both can carry the puck and seem to prefer playmaking so stick them with Ryder, a natural finisher. Hopefully playing with Saku will wake Kovy up and having 2 international captains to set plays up will create more chances for Ryder to hit the back of the net. Alternatively, if a more physical presence is needs, go with Lats who has also worked well with Saku.
- 2nd line, I think it's widely accepted is working. No need to break that up, they all play well together, all contribute and deserve a little extra ice time (if any were to be gained be being the 2nd line).
- Pleks gets rewarded for his hard work by having a couple of guys around him who can complement the offensive side of his game. He is responsible defensively so can cover the others if they get caught too far up ice.
- 4th line, double shift Kovalev, Perezhogin or Johnson. Kovy has been double shifted before and can handle it (pending injury) and Johnson and Pez are fast, hard working guys who could round out most lines nicely.

As for Kostitsyn, hopefully he gets another call sometime soon. He may not have done anything to force Carbo to keep him around, but it would have been nice to see him given a chance to play on a line which was fully functioning. Instead, it appears he was used in the hope he would be the solution to that line and couldn't get it done (which no-one else has managed either). So now its time to try something else and in the mean time he is back to Hamilton. I'm already looking forward to the 'he clearly doesn't deserve/ isn't ready to be in the NHL' mantra some people are inevitably preparing.

Here's hoping whatever Carbo has in mind has the effect he wants. We already have a team that looks very good and that is while some of our players are not being as effective as they could be. If Carbo can get everyone on the same page and playing well at the same time, we will have one scary team to face off against.

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Old
11-20-2006, 03:54 PM
  #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tatay Farlo View Post
Could Samsonov/Kovalev be the problem and not the 3rd player?

I think so.
Me too. Another move in the game of musical hockey chairs to try and get two seasoned veterans, who make very good salaries, care about playing hockey for the Habs.

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11-20-2006, 03:56 PM
  #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Saku K. View Post
Indeed, the weight of the first round pick is the most overrated thing on this board and thus makes Kostsitsyn one of our most overrated prospect. He did nothing to force Carbonneau's hand but obviously I'm sure it will be a chorus of excuses from Kostsitsyn's fans on how he always get screwed. He looked okay to me wouldn't have minded if he stayed a little bit longer but his demotion is nothing worth screaming for murder.
I don't know if he's over-rated or people are just over-eager to see him succeed.

I personally didn't think he looked bad on the line and I wouldn't have minded if he was afforded the same courtesy Lats was given. But in all honesty he has a place that he can be sent to and continue his development.

I don't blame the Habs nor Kosts, it's part of the process as far as I'm concerned. Those who can deal with it will become the better for it.

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Old
11-20-2006, 03:57 PM
  #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by #11 Saku Koivu View Post
That's the kind of thing I'm hoping to see.
I've said since we got Samsonov that I'd like to see him and Ryder tried on the same line. For whatever reason, I just kind of feel like their styles would mesh well together.

So:

Latendresse - Koivu - Kovalev
Perezhogin - Bonk - Johnson
Samsonov - Plekanec - Ryder
Dandenault - Begin - Downey/Murray

That is assuming Bouillon will decide to play Wednesday. If not, we're looking at a call up of Kostitsyn or Lapierre, or else having BOTH Murray AND Downey in the line-up at the same time .
BINGO

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Old
11-20-2006, 04:01 PM
  #55
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had to be sent down, we already had 23 players on the roster with Bouillon on IR... and Kostytsin he's one of the very few that can be sent down with no "waiver issues".

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Old
11-20-2006, 04:17 PM
  #56
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well let's just say I can't wait to see our second line stuck in our own zone the whole game, kovalev can't get it out and sammy floats in the middle. I'm not saying Kostitsyn is good defensively but at least he tried. I hope they put Plekanec up there now.

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11-20-2006, 04:27 PM
  #57
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All I know is that the personel changes will be very interesting this year. Gainey has many cards to play with and it might be his opportunity to get a royal flush. Or, he could also do nothing .


Personally, I'm wondering what the situation is with Kovalev, is he injured or is he adapting to a new position? Perhaps it's both. He hasn't been that bad if you look at the average play level of NHLers, but he hasn't been good either if you look at what he can bring on a nightly basis. Koivu does seem to have that ability to make players around him that much better. This year especially, I've noticed a drastic change in Koivu's game, much like Brind'Amour went through in Carolina. It's all for the better in my opinion.

I liked that Samsonov-Plekanec-Ryder line, but it could also be a recipe for disaster. If Plekanec was playing like the playoffs last year, that would've been a no-brainer. But at this point... I'm not so sure.

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Old
11-20-2006, 04:28 PM
  #58
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7D is real possible, with Dandenault at forward.

He's probably a better forward than either Downey or Murray.

Streit is third in scoring for D, that's what was expected of him. He deserves to play and none of the Top 6 deserve to sit.

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Old
11-20-2006, 04:29 PM
  #59
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these lines are good ideas however dont forget higgins needs koivu when he comes back as much as kovalev needs him , kovalev has a better chance of performing on his own without koivu then higgins does

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Old
11-20-2006, 04:34 PM
  #60
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They should put Murray or Downey on the 2nd, might as well give some ice time to one of the two... 2nd won't be better/worst anyway


and we wouldnt have to shuffle our other lines!!

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Old
11-20-2006, 04:37 PM
  #61
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Latendresse-Koivu-Ryder
Sammy-Kovy-Perez
Begin-Bonk-Johnson
Dandy-Plekanec-Murray/Downey

Markov-Komo
Souray-Rivet
Bouillon-Streit

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Old
11-20-2006, 04:37 PM
  #62
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Originally Posted by Rahan View Post
well let's just say I can't wait to see our second line stuck in our own zone the whole game, kovalev can't get it out and sammy floats in the middle. I'm not saying Kostitsyn is good defensively but at least he tried. I hope they put Plekanec up there now.
The main problem with Kovalev is that he likes to slow down the pace of the game so much that he forgets he is in his own end. As a result, transition game of the second line is simply horrible. Samsonov is so damn predictable with his moves that even his speed does not help him. Does he get open for one timer? Has he showed good passing skills? Does he shoot often? Does he play physical? Is he good in his own end? Is he good along the boards? What does he do well to earn his salary? Oh yeah I know! He is great turnover machine and a very good cry-baby.

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Old
11-20-2006, 04:39 PM
  #63
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0 pts = Not a very productive top 6 forward.

SO long Kosty

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Old
11-20-2006, 04:42 PM
  #64
Watsatheo
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i like the look of:

Ryder/Lats - Koivu - Kovalev
Perezhogin - Bonk - Johnson
Samsonov - Plekanec - Lats/Ryder
Begin - Murray - Dandenault

Markov-Rivet
Komo-Souray
Bouillion-Streit

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Old
11-20-2006, 04:48 PM
  #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Watzatheo View Post
i like the look of:

Ryder/Lats - Koivu - Kovalev
Perezhogin - Bonk - Johnson
Samsonov - Plekanec - Lats/Ryder
Begin - Murray - Dandenault

Markov-Rivet
Komo-Souray
Bouillion-Streit
I think your second and third would be switched.

Also I was just wondering something... call me crazy but how would streit look as a forward? He's fast and has soft hands

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Old
11-20-2006, 04:54 PM
  #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil Parent View Post
7D is real possible, with Dandenault at forward.

He's probably a better forward than either Downey or Murray.

Streit is third in scoring for D, that's what was expected of him. He deserves to play and none of the Top 6 deserve to sit.
It's true, Streit deserves to play. I've been hard on him, but he's earned a regular spot without having stolen Bouillon or Dandenault's spot.

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Old
11-20-2006, 04:56 PM
  #67
Mathieu Lavergne
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Originally Posted by Whitesnake View Post
Or it's the weight of one of the greatest 1st round ever with Kosty being one of the few not able of being a regular yet.....so let's just say we hope big time not only he'll make it soon but be a regular as well......

He's not overrated, he's overwaited.....
White, trust me when I tell you I hope as much as anybody that Kostsitsyn can be an impact player for the Habs but I'm not convinced that being from a great draft year is enough for me to suggest he's gonna be a great one when there is logically enough to be concerned of.

When he was drafted Kostsitsyn was seen as a top talent in a very stacked draft and even Timmins, who has extremly good credibility as far as player evaluation is concerned, was quoted saying he was a top talent and could be ready to play in the league as soon as the beginning of the following season.

Of course, everybody (including myself) was extremly excited about his selection. However, since his draft day beside some performance on the international scenes for Team Belarus and this year's training camp, Kostsitsyn did show little to convince me as to why I should be excited. Kostsitsyn has shown by his last few years he was more as a project player then the stud star prospect a lot of people claimed (still claim) him of to be.

I'm just puzzled that every summer since his draft day, he is still put on the team's top line every single year despite underwhelming pro achievement. I mean he failed to stick with the father team in Russia, I was not too worried as the Russia Superleague surely doesn't see itself as a developement league for the NHL and I believe some politics could have been were involved.

His AHL rookie year, he did show little thorough the season as far as steady developement is concerned but even there it was his rookie year I gave him the benefit of the doubt since he had to adjust to a new culture, the different rink and the new style and level of play he had to get used to. Even there, I was underwhelmed to see how such a hyped prospect as a talented point scoring machine failed to secure at least a spot of the team's powerplay or on an offensive line on a team with little AHL top-six ready talent.

Last year, second to Corey Locke in points, he still failed to pot 20 goals while having some defensive gains. I don't think anybody would think Kostsitsyn is now a decent defensive forward at the NHL or is a good fit to play against the opponent's top line nights in nights outs or a fourth line as of today. He did have a great camp and deserved a spot though he got caugh in the numbers game. He certainly didn't seperate himself from the pack in Hamilton once again this season and he was okay in his call up.

Then I see all sort of excuses: it's his teammates fault, it's his coaches fault, the canadiens are not handling his development properly.

I just don't seem to understand why people can put Kostsitsyn on their top two line every single year when he fails to take charge in an offensive role at the AHL level and while very talented, he has not shown he can be constant over the long run as far as scoring points or showing a strong work ethic. His development has been very slow so far. I also hear how he should be given a superior treatment to our other prospects, even some people are afraid he could storm back to Russia. If this guy isn't a first round pick, people's thinking of Kostsitsyn would be of an good scoring line prospect with a lot to prove with what he has shown so far in his career.

Some people lastest's argument have been that he should be in because he should be better with NHL talent, even though Kostsitsyn has been known as a player who tends to use his teammates poorly and if I am doing assets management on a team I cannot bank on such baseless prediction. Each and every points is important in the standing in today's NHL, assuming such things is more likely to burn you than anything else, when you have results, it is always more secure to base yourself on past success. In Kostsitsyn's case, you can't use that you have to rely on the so-popular "He was drafted high, he's got great talent and he needs to play with higher skilled player to succeed" type of argument which hold little weight as far as being base for a successful decision making process. Not that Sammy is making Gainey look smart right now but plugging a scoring line veteran instead of handing out the scoring line spot to a prospect with so much question marks was the right decision IMO. Sammy's failure so far doesn't automatically mean Gainey's thought process was necessarily bad. Maybe Samsonov wasn't the right man for the job, that's okay to think that. I think most people were 50/50 on the signing and myself, thought Gainey handed too much money to Sammy but as far as signing a top-six veteran vs Kostsitsyn, they were no doubt in my mind that it was the good decision.

I'm one of the school were RESULTS are far more important than pointless speculation or early draft day potential and try to adjust my thinking of one player with every single year going by. Beside some international moments for Belarus and this season's training camp, Kostsitsyn has been pretty much shown little to be overly optimistic about. The good news is that he's still very talented and keeps on improving a little every season but he is nowhere near on a level that he should be put on a pedestal or be reserved a spot on the roster. He's overwaited, maybe, but it's not the management's fault at all and I think all the bashing is mostly undeserved. Hopefully, he can prove me wrong and put plenty of points in the AHL so we can all agree that without a shadow of a doubt he deserves his shot and has what it takes to make the impact we're all hoping for. Until then, he's still a bit of an enigma with a lot of question marks on his true potential future with the Habs.

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Nice to see you around, Saku K. How's life treating ya?
Pretty good, glad to see you're still here. Hope everything is going well with you.


Last edited by Mathieu Lavergne: 11-20-2006 at 05:07 PM.
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Old
11-20-2006, 05:07 PM
  #68
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I didn't expect it but like many said, he didn't really force the hand of the team to keep him in the NHL. He'll be back though.

I do wonder what the lines will be for next game though. Too many possibilities but none very obvious.

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11-20-2006, 05:16 PM
  #69
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Try Koivu with Kovy and Sammy. If this doesn't get them going, nothing will.

Pleks has played very well and could potentially do well between Lats and Ryder.

Keep the Bonk line together.

Sammy - Koivu - Kovalev
Perezhogin - Bonk - Johnson
Lats- Plekanec -Ryder
Begin - Murray - Dandenault

Markov-Rivet
Komo-Souray
Bouillion-Streit

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11-20-2006, 05:17 PM
  #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil Parent View Post
7D is real possible, with Dandenault at forward.

He's probably a better forward than either Downey or Murray.

Streit is third in scoring for D, that's what was expected of him. He deserves to play and none of the Top 6 deserve to sit.
I think you're right. I'm not sure how things'll shake out with Kovalev and Samsonov,but I don't see Streit sitting right now. When you think about it, is his pp time more valuable than someone's 4th line minutes ?

I was all set to shake my head at putting Kovalev with Koivu, but maybe, it's worth a try. Maybe Ryder/Samsonv/Plekanec makes sense. I'm not sure truthfully, Kovalev has had some brutal shifts. He seems so stationary in his own zone, I wonder how bad he's hurt. You hate to over react when th eteam's winning, but they'll need more 5 on 5 eventually. With Higgins out, it's the time to juggle I guess.

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Old
11-20-2006, 05:17 PM
  #71
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Originally Posted by Saku K. View Post
White, trust me when I tell you I hope as much as anybody that Kostsitsyn can be an impact player for the Habs but I'm not convinced that being from a great draft year is enough for me to suggest he's gonna be a great one when there is logically enough to be concerned of.

When he was drafted Kostsitsyn was seen as a top talent in a very stacked draft and even Timmins, who has extremly good credibility as far as player evaluation is concerned, was quoted saying he was a top talent and could be ready to play in the league as soon as the beginning of the following season.

Of course, everybody (including myself) was extremly excited about his selection. However, since his draft day beside some performance on the international scenes for Team Belarus and this year's training camp, Kostsitsyn did show little to convince me as to why I should be excited. Kostsitsyn has shown by his last few years he was more as a project player then the stud star prospect a lot of people claimed (still claim) him of to be.

I'm just puzzled that every summer since his draft day, he is still put on the team's top line every single year despite underwhelming pro achievement. I mean he failed to stick with the father team in Russia, I was not too worried as the Russia Superleague surely doesn't see itself as a developement league for the NHL and I believe some politics could have been were involved.

His AHL rookie year, he did show little thorough the season as far as steady developement is concerned but even there it was his rookie year I gave him the benefit of the doubt since he had to adjust to a new culture, the different rink and the new style and level of play he had to get used to. Even there, I was underwhelmed to see how such a hyped prospect as a talented point scoring machine failed to secure at least a spot of the team's powerplay or on an offensive line on a team with little AHL top-six ready talent.

Last year, second to Corey Locke in points, he still failed to pot 20 goals while having some defensive gains. I don't think anybody would think Kostsitsyn is now a decent defensive forward at the NHL or is a good fit to play against the opponent's top line nights in nights outs or a fourth line as of today. He did have a great camp and deserved a spot though he got caugh in the numbers game. He certainly didn't seperate himself from the pack in Hamilton once again this season and he was okay in his call up.

Then I see all sort of excuses: it's his teammates fault, it's his coaches fault, the canadiens are not handling his development properly.

I just don't seem to understand why people can put Kostsitsyn on their top two line every single year when he fails to take charge in an offensive role at the AHL level and while very talented, he has not shown he can be constant over the long run as far as scoring points or showing a strong work ethic. His development has been very slow so far. I also hear how he should be given a superior treatment to our other prospects, even some people are afraid he could storm back to Russia. If this guy isn't a first round pick, people's thinking of Kostsitsyn would be of an good scoring line prospect with a lot to prove with what he has shown so far in his career.

Some people lastest's argument have been that he should be in because he should be better with NHL talent, even though Kostsitsyn has been known as a player who tends to use his teammates poorly and if I am doing assets management on a team I cannot bank on such baseless prediction. Each and every points is important in the standing in today's NHL, assuming such things is more likely to burn you than anything else, when you have results, it is always more secure to base yourself on past success. In Kostsitsyn's case, you can't use that you have to rely on the so-popular "He was drafted high, he's got great talent and he needs to play with higher skilled player to succeed" type of argument which hold little weight as far as being base for a successful decision making process. Not that Sammy is making Gainey look smart right now but plugging a scoring line veteran instead of handing out the scoring line spot to a prospect with so much question marks was the right decision IMO. Sammy's failure so far doesn't automatically mean Gainey's thought process was necessarily bad. Maybe Samsonov wasn't the right man for the job, that's okay to think that. I think most people were 50/50 on the signing and myself, thought Gainey handed too much money to Sammy but as far as signing a top-six veteran vs Kostsitsyn, they were no doubt in my mind that it was the good decision.

I'm one of the school were RESULTS are far more important than pointless speculation or early draft day potential and try to adjust my thinking of one player with every single year going by. Beside some international moments for Belarus and this season's training camp, Kostsitsyn has been pretty much shown little to be overly optimistic about. The good news is that he's still very talented and keeps on improving a little every season but he is nowhere near on a level that he should be put on a pedestal or be reserved a spot on the roster. He's overwaited, maybe, but it's not the management's fault at all and I think all the bashing is mostly undeserved. Hopefully, he can prove me wrong and put plenty of points in the AHL so we can all agree that without a shadow of a doubt he deserves his shot and has what it takes to make the impact we're all hoping for. Until then, he's still a bit of an enigma with a lot of question marks on his true potential future with the Habs.
I agree with most of what you say but....
From what I heard (i can only listen to games on the radio out here in calgary) on the radio and what I've read here, Kots certainly didn't play himself OUT of a roster spot...

Plus, I don't believe that Lats did/showed all that much more in his first 15 games with the team than Kots did in his 2, and he got bumped to the first line not demoted...

Now I understand the whole "can't play in the AHL" thing, and that's all fine and dandy, but I think that most teams, with 1st round picks, at some point give them a decent shot at earning/keeping a roster spot. I don't think that Kots has gotten that shot yet, at least not the kind of shot most top ten picks get at some point.
Would anyone be saying anything if he had been a 3rd rounder, of course not, but he wasnt, he was a 1st, and until he proves to be a complete bust, fans, media and even management will continue to hope he can break out... For some reason Gainey just doesn't seem ready to give him a full audition.

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11-20-2006, 05:28 PM
  #72
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I agree with most of what you say but....
From what I heard (i can only listen to games on the radio out here in calgary) on the radio and what I've read here, Kots certainly didn't play himself OUT of a roster spot...

Plus, I don't believe that Lats did/showed all that much more in his first 15 games with the team than Kots did in his 2, and he got bumped to the first line not demoted...

Now I understand the whole "can't play in the AHL" thing, and that's all fine and dandy, but I think that most teams, with 1st round picks, at some point give them a decent shot at earning/keeping a roster spot. I don't think that Kots has gotten that shot yet, at least not the kind of shot most top ten picks get at some point.
Would anyone be saying anything if he had been a 3rd rounder, of course not, but he wasnt, he was a 1st, and until he proves to be a complete bust, fans, media and even management will continue to hope he can break out... For some reason Gainey just doesn't seem ready to give him a full audition.
Kostitsyn played 4 games, on the 2nd line. I thought he played fairly well, so I don't get the demotion, but I'm hoping for a Kovalev and Samsonov shake up...It's time to divide the two.

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11-20-2006, 05:35 PM
  #73
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Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
had to be sent down, we already had 23 players on the roster with Bouillon on IR... and Kostytsin he's one of the very few that can be sent down with no "waiver issues".
This is the only post in this thread which makes any sense at all which is probably why every post after it is still some type of "conspiracy theory" or knock against the player. It seems like unless a post on this board bashes either the player or managements decision it isn't read and therefore we end up with 10 pages of insanity and the riducule of all the other fans on this web site. While I do agree that it's our right as fans to expect more from our players and management it's also our responsibility to tone it down a bit when a valid reason is given for managements decision or the player starts to play better.

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11-20-2006, 05:48 PM
  #74
Mike8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Empireshark View Post
This is the only post in this thread which makes any sense at all which is probably why every post after it is still some type of "conspiracy theory" or knock against the player. It seems like unless a post on this board bashes either the player or managements decision it isn't read and therefore we end up with 10 pages of insanity and the riducule of all the other fans on this web site. While I do agree that it's our right as fans to expect more from our players and management it's also our responsibility to tone it down a bit when a valid reason is given for managements decision or the player starts to play better.
Isn't Higgins on the IR? In which case, the club is at 22 players (with Bouillon).

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11-20-2006, 05:55 PM
  #75
goalchenyuk
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Empireshark View Post
This is the only post in this thread which makes any sense at all which is probably why every post after it is still some type of "conspiracy theory" or knock against the player. It seems like unless a post on this board bashes either the player or managements decision it isn't read and therefore we end up with 10 pages of insanity and the riducule of all the other fans on this web site. While I do agree that it's our right as fans to expect more from our players and management it's also our responsibility to tone it down a bit when a valid reason is given for managements decision or the player starts to play better.
I would add that maybe his back problems are back again , so they decide to return him .

Maybe they have a trade in the work ...

About Latendresse that didn't show nothing during the first 12 games ; he wasn't not there to " shows " something , but to get familiar with the speed of the NHL . Once he was put with offensive players , he than showed what he was able to do .

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