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Derek Stepan Negotiations (9/19-Dreger: "Unlikely" Stepan signs before season opens)

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09-17-2013, 11:38 AM
  #176
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fire Sather View Post
I wonder if you asked Derek Stepan at the age of say 12... you can make 3 million a year when you are 23.. what do you think?

Do you think he'd say "No, I'd want 3.2!!!!!!"
A totally relevant contribution. Thanks for posting.

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09-17-2013, 11:39 AM
  #177
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Originally Posted by Fire Sather View Post
I wonder if you asked Derek Stepan at the age of say 12... you can make 3 million a year when you are 23.. what do you think?

Do you think he'd say "No, I'd want 3.2!!!!!!"
I dont think the 12 year old Stepan had enough of a grasp on market-based economics.

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09-17-2013, 11:41 AM
  #178
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Tiresome.

That's what this has become. The bad is now becoming the enemy of the good. Do yourself a big fat favor kid and get yourself into camp.

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09-17-2013, 11:55 AM
  #179
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Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
I dont think the 12 year old Stepan had enough of a grasp on market-based economics.
I've always wondered why more 12 year olds aren't agents. Do you think that's it?

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09-17-2013, 11:56 AM
  #180
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Originally Posted by Fire Sather View Post
I wonder if you asked Derek Stepan at the age of say 12... you can make 3 million a year when you are 23.. what do you think?

Do you think he'd say "No, I'd want 3.2!!!!!!"
I agree that here in the real world this disagreement seems fairly petty and pretty ridiculous. And agree with a lot of the fundamental sentiment behind your posts (though I'm not "pro-owner" like you are); but there comes a time when you just have to let things happen how they're going to happen and not let it get to you - especially in situations in which you have zero control.

But as long as we're doing whacky real world hypotheticals, here you go:


Imagine that anyone in the world ever, yourself included, has about 15 years to collect the bulk of the salary that they will collect for the rest of their lives. Now imagine that this person thought that they could increase what they got paid by between 0.5 mil and 1 mil over two years of that time frame with relatively little (or no) harm done to them, their job, or others. Would they just give in and let that half mil fly away? Would they say "Hell yea, **** that half million to million dollars! Who needs it!?!"


Last edited by Richter Scale: 09-17-2013 at 12:02 PM.
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09-17-2013, 11:59 AM
  #181
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fire Sather View Post
I wonder if you asked Derek Stepan at the age of say 12... you can make 3 million a year when you are 23.. what do you think?

Do you think he'd say "No, I'd want 3.2!!!!!!"
If you told a 12 year old Stepan he could make 3.2M when he was 23 or he could get a new Nintendo that afternoon, which would he take?

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09-17-2013, 12:03 PM
  #182
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McKenzie says Stepan is looking for Duchene money plus alittle more so north of 3.5m, while Rangers are willing to pay 3 and some change, so just settle at 3.5m put Hags on IR, figure out who is sticking and ship out Pyatt. We'll be able to fit that cap hit.

I think Lindberg makes the team, Boyle shifts to wing as does one of Richards/Brassard.

Kreider-Stepan-Nash
Richards-Brassard-Zuccarello
Pouliot-Lindberg-Fast/Kristo
Boyle-Moore-Dorsett

CAPGEEK.COM USER GENERATED ROSTER
My Custom Lineup
FORWARDS
Chris Kreider ($1.325m) / Derek Stepan ($0.827m) / Rick Nash ($7.800m)
Brad Richards ($6.667m) / Derick Brassard ($3.200m) / Mats Zuccarello ($1.150m)
Benoit Pouliot ($1.300m) / Oscar Lindberg ($0.760m) / Danny Kristo ($1.300m)
Brian Boyle ($1.700m) / Dominic Moore ($1.000m) / Derek Dorsett ($1.633m)
Arron Asham ($1.000m) / Carl Hagelin ($2.250m) / Ryan Callahan ($4.275m)
DEFENSEMEN
Ryan McDonagh ($4.700m) / Marc Staal ($3.975m)
Dan Girardi ($3.325m) / Michael Del Zotto ($2.550m)
Anton Stralman ($1.700m) / John Moore ($0.965m)
Justin Falk ($0.975m) /
GOALTENDERS
Henrik Lundqvist ($6.875m)
Martin Biron ($1.300m)
OTHER
Buried: Taylor Pyatt ($0.625m)
------
CAPGEEK.COM TOTALS (follow @capgeek on Twitter)
(these totals are compiled with the bonus cushion)
SALARY CAP: $64,300,000; CAP PAYROLL: $63,176,875; BONUSES: $1,687,500
CAP SPACE (24-man roster): $2,810,625


Last edited by Clown Fiesta: 09-17-2013 at 12:09 PM.
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Old
09-17-2013, 12:04 PM
  #183
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SingnBluesOnBroadway View Post
If you told a 12 year old Stepan he could make 3.2M when he was 23 or he could get a new Nintendo that afternoon, which would he take?
A new Nintendo? How old do you think Stepan is?

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09-17-2013, 12:11 PM
  #184
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Barbara Underhill View Post
McKenzie says Stepan is looking for Duchene money plus alittle more so north of 3.5m, while Rangers are willing to pay 3 and some change, so just settle at 3.5m put Hags on IR, figure out who is sticking and ship out Pyatt. We'll be able to fit that cap hit.

I think Lindberg makes the team, Boyle shifts to wing as does one of Richards/Brassard.

Kreider-Stepan-Nash
Richards-Brassard-Zuccarello
Pouliot-Lindberg-Fast/Kristo
Boyle-Moore-Dorsett

CAPGEEK.COM USER GENERATED ROSTER
My Custom Lineup
FORWARDS
Chris Kreider ($1.325m) / Derek Stepan ($0.827m) / Rick Nash ($7.800m)
Brad Richards ($6.667m) / Derick Brassard ($3.200m) / Mats Zuccarello ($1.150m)
Benoit Pouliot ($1.300m) / Oscar Lindberg ($0.760m) / Danny Kristo ($1.300m)
Brian Boyle ($1.700m) / Dominic Moore ($1.000m) / Derek Dorsett ($1.633m)
Arron Asham ($1.000m) / Carl Hagelin ($2.250m) / Ryan Callahan ($4.275m)
DEFENSEMEN
Ryan McDonagh ($4.700m) / Marc Staal ($3.975m)
Dan Girardi ($3.325m) / Michael Del Zotto ($2.550m)
Anton Stralman ($1.700m) / John Moore ($0.965m)
Justin Falk ($0.975m) /
GOALTENDERS
Henrik Lundqvist ($6.875m)
Martin Biron ($1.300m)
OTHER
Buried: Taylor Pyatt ($0.625m)
------
CAPGEEK.COM TOTALS (follow @capgeek on Twitter)
(these totals are compiled with the bonus cushion)
SALARY CAP: $64,300,000; CAP PAYROLL: $63,176,875; BONUSES: $1,687,500
CAP SPACE (24-man roster): $2,810,625
why should the rangers negotiate against themselves?

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09-17-2013, 12:12 PM
  #185
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I'm surprised anyone gets so worked up over this. A couple of lockouts have really hammered it home how this is a business first, so I certainly dont blame a player for doing his business.

Certainly frustrating, not to see our best center in camp right now but its probably in his best personal interest to use the only leverage he has(at least until he starts actually losing pay checks.)

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09-17-2013, 12:12 PM
  #186
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Inferno View Post
why should the rangers negotiate against themselves?
Because you can't let Stepan sit out forever, besides who cares about 250k. If that's what it takes to get him signed, do it.

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09-17-2013, 12:13 PM
  #187
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Stepan......................Wait for it........................Put your Skates on and Play Hockey

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Old
09-17-2013, 12:19 PM
  #188
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No rush for him to sign. He does not lose any pay until Oct. 2.

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Old
09-17-2013, 12:25 PM
  #189
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Originally Posted by Barbara Underhill View Post
Because you can't let Stepan sit out forever, besides who cares about 250k. If that's what it takes to get him signed, do it.
In principle I agree with you, just get the deal done. But in the context of reality, not so much. If Sather consistently took the attitude that $250k wasn't a big deal, he would:

A. Not be a good negotiator in a cap world.
B. All those meaningless $250k's would add up over several signings to mean you wouldn't be able to field as great a team as if you pushed to save that quarter million on each signing.

If you save just $250k on each of 6 players by taking a hard line on negotiations, suddenly you have the difference between being able to pick up a depth forward/defensemen/whatever at a $1 mil salary or a $2.5 mil salary. Or a 1st liner for $6 mil or $7.5 mil. Or the difference between being able to sign a future RFA/UFA or having to let them walk. All of which have the potential to make a pretty big difference in the composition of your future roster.

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09-17-2013, 12:28 PM
  #190
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richter Scale View Post
I agree that here in the real world this disagreement seems fairly petty and pretty ridiculous. And agree with a lot of the fundamental sentiment behind your posts (though I'm not "pro-owner" like you are); but there comes a time when you just have to let things happen how they're going to happen and not let it get to you - especially in situations in which you have zero control.

But as long as we're doing whacky real world hypotheticals, here you go:


Imagine that anyone in the world ever, yourself included, has about 15 years to collect the bulk of the salary that they will collect for the rest of their lives. Now imagine that this person thought that they could increase what they got paid by between 0.5 mil and 1 mil over two years of that time frame with relatively little (or no) harm done to them, their job, or others. Would they just give in and let that half mil fly away? Would they say "Hell yea, **** that half million to million dollars! Who needs it!?!"
I just can't understand how the sides can be held up over 500K a season (if those reports are true) spilt the difference and the deal is done. Would the Rangers not do that? Would Stepan do that? Why is this so difficult? Its not like the team has ample cap space to give him whatever he wants. The team is close to the cap. Its easily doable to sign him but the team can't be right at the cap for the entire season, they need a little wiggle room. Does Stepan want the team to be worsened by forcing them to trade someone to pay him a little more?

It does hurt himself and it hurts the team being he is missing a training camp with a new coach and system. If Stepan signs next week, I fear hes behind schedule and may struggle come the regular season. But he isn't worried about how well he plays after he gets paid.

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09-17-2013, 12:28 PM
  #191
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So save the 250K-500K on UFAs, not on your top line center who is 23 year old.

Whole thing does not make a ton of sense to me anyway, if the Rangers are going to go to 3.5M on a bridge why not just go to above 4M and sign him long term buying up some UFA years... like they should have done from the get go.

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09-17-2013, 12:28 PM
  #192
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richter Scale View Post
In principle I agree with you, just get the deal done. But in the context of reality, not so much. If Sather consistently took the attitude that $250k wasn't a big deal, he would:

A. Not be a good negotiator in a cap world.
B. All those meaningless $250k's would add up over several signings to mean you wouldn't be able to field as great a team as if you pushed to save that quarter million on each signing.

If you save just $250k on each of 6 players by taking a hard line on negotiations, suddenly you have the difference between being able to pick up a depth forward/defensemen/whatever at a $1 mil salary or a $2.5 mil salary. Or a 1st liner for $6 mil or $7.5 mil. Or the difference between being able to sign a future RFA/UFA or having to let them walk. All of which have the potential to make a pretty big difference in the composition of your future roster.
Except I'm not suggesting he do it on every contract, just this one IF that's what it takes.

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09-17-2013, 12:30 PM
  #193
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Originally Posted by Barbara Underhill View Post
Except I'm not suggesting he do it on every contract, just this one IF that's what it takes.
That would ruin his street cred for other negotiations though.

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09-17-2013, 12:31 PM
  #194
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SingnBluesOnBroadway View Post
If you told a 12 year old Stepan he could make 3.2M when he was 23 or he could get a new Nintendo that afternoon, which would he take?
My point is that I wish these players, while holding out over 5-10% of what they are already being offered would think back to their youth and how it was their dream to play in the NHL, and now they are refusing to play the game while being offered 3 mill instead of 3.3 to do so.

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09-17-2013, 12:32 PM
  #195
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Originally Posted by Richter Scale View Post
I agree that here in the real world this disagreement seems fairly petty and pretty ridiculous. And agree with a lot of the fundamental sentiment behind your posts (though I'm not "pro-owner" like you are); but there comes a time when you just have to let things happen how they're going to happen and not let it get to you - especially in situations in which you have zero control.

But as long as we're doing whacky real world hypotheticals, here you go:


Imagine that anyone in the world ever, yourself included, has about 15 years to collect the bulk of the salary that they will collect for the rest of their lives. Now imagine that this person thought that they could increase what they got paid by between 0.5 mil and 1 mil over two years of that time frame with relatively little (or no) harm done to them, their job, or others. Would they just give in and let that half mil fly away? Would they say "Hell yea, **** that half million to million dollars! Who needs it!?!"
spot on - and that's why I asked bleed rangers blue about his ridiculous deserving attitude in regards to what STEPAN should be doing. Stepan deserves every penny he can get.

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09-17-2013, 12:33 PM
  #196
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Off Sides View Post
So save the 250K-500K on UFAs, not on your top line center who is 23 year old.

Whole thing does not make a ton of sense to me anyway, if the Rangers are going to go to 3.5M on a bridge why not just go to above 4M and sign him long term buying up some UFA years... like they should have done from the get go.
How does that work? UFA's have the ability to field offers from everyone and thus get overpaid.

Rangers have the leverage with Stepan because he is RFA. That is how the organization saves cap, and it has been for years now.

I haven't heard anything on possible Lundqvist talks but for that I actually blame the Rangers because he should already be extended. Rangers shouldn't let him play a game this season without a contract for next year. (Although one of my biggest pet peeves is when a player refuses to talk during the season because of the "distraction" thats garbage and just an excuse for a player to get to UFA, which is fine and his right but don't ******** about distraction when you have an agent that handles it) But yeah, get that done because he is the franchise.

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09-17-2013, 12:36 PM
  #197
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Originally Posted by -31- View Post
That would ruin his street cred for other negotiations though.
Not really, it's negotiations. Eventually both parties will budge that's kind of how it works. If you can get Stepan to sign for less that's fine but it isn't some sort of phenomenon that a GM ups their offer slightly to sign a player.

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09-17-2013, 12:39 PM
  #198
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Rangers without Stepan:
-No 1st line center
-Reduces depth
-Reduces PP/PK effectiveness

Stepan without The Rangers:
-No Money
-Falling behind with a new system
-Falling behind without a full training camp
-Hurting your chances with team USA if you hold out for too long


Who needs who more?

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09-17-2013, 12:39 PM
  #199
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Originally Posted by -31- View Post
A new Nintendo? How old do you think Stepan is?
Never been a gamer. ColecoVision instead? Magnavox Odyssey?

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09-17-2013, 12:40 PM
  #200
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Originally Posted by Fire Sather View Post
How does that work? UFA's have the ability to field offers from everyone and thus get overpaid.

Rangers have the leverage with Stepan because he is RFA. That is how the organization saves cap, and it has been for years now.

I haven't heard anything on possible Lundqvist talks but for that I actually blame the Rangers because he should already be extended. Rangers shouldn't let him play a game this season without a contract for next year. Get that done because he is the franchise.
So let them, set a price stick to it, if you asked Lundqvist when he was 12 if he needed 8M or 7.5M per year to play for the New York Rangers when he was 31, would he have said I need 8M?

My point was they didn't save anything on Asham, Pyatt, they put themselves in the position to need those players, so they overspent by 250-500K on each of them. Put themselves in the position to need to pick up Powe off waivers with his cap hit. Put themselves in this position by giving into whatever Richards wanted by trying to circumvent the cap, they made their cap structure by spending it on UFAs and trading for Nash, they have not overspend on any RFA since Dubinsky yet here they are.

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