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Derek Stepan Negotiations (9/19-Dreger: "Unlikely" Stepan signs before season opens)

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09-17-2013, 01:41 PM
  #201
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SingnBluesOnBroadway View Post
Never been a gamer. ColecoVision instead? Magnavox Odyssey?
Making him even older now 10 years ago Stepan would have been wanting a PS2 or Xbox.

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09-17-2013, 01:44 PM
  #202
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Originally Posted by Off Sides View Post
So let them, set a price stick to it, if you asked Lundqvist when he was 12 if he needed 8M or 7.5M per year to play for the New York Rangers when he was 31, would he have said I need 8M?

My point was they didn't save anything on Asham, Pyatt, they put themselves in the position to need those players, so they overspent by 250-500K on each of them. Put themselves in the position to need to pick up Powe off waivers with his cap hit. Put themselves in this position by giving into whatever Richards wanted by trying to circumvent the cap, they made their cap structure by spending it on UFAs and trading for Nash, they have not overspend on any RFA since Dubinsky yet here they are.
It doesn't even matter to mention extras like Asham, Pyatt or Powe because they can easily be sent down or traded. (Although I remind everyone to a time when we had no depth, those guys are still NHL players who can fill a bottom line role) Richards is an albatross we're stuck with this year and we better hope he doesn't get hurt because he needs to be bought out whether he scores 120 points or 20.

Of course I said that last year, he had the worst season imaginable and was kept. So who knows.

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09-17-2013, 01:46 PM
  #203
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Not very bright...
Just take the bridge.
For a NY young player it's almost a right of passage. Take the bridge and then
You'll get your pay day.

Not taking the bridge and being overpaid exponentially increases his chances of getting dealt.
Pay your dues..

These agents are idiots sometimes

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09-17-2013, 01:47 PM
  #204
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Originally Posted by Richter Scale View Post
But as long as we're doing whacky real world hypotheticals, here you go:


Imagine that anyone in the world ever, yourself included, has about 15 years to collect the bulk of the salary that they will collect for the rest of their lives. Now imagine that this person thought that they could increase what they got paid by between 0.5 mil and 1 mil over two years of that time frame with relatively little (or no) harm done to them, their job, or others. Would they just give in and let that half mil fly away? Would they say "Hell yea, **** that half million to million dollars! Who needs it!?!"
I have never bought this argument regarding pro athletes, for two main reasons:

First--look around the league, particularly the periphery. Many of the broadcasters, scouts, team personnel, coaches, etc etc etc are former players. That's not even counting things like speaking engagements or non-NHL non hockey positions. It's not like you have 15 years and then suddenly can't make money anymore.

Second--they (athletes) are making ridiculous money. I'm not saying that they don't deserve it, because the league makes money off of them, but don't play the "he has to make as much as he can in 15 years or he'll go hungry in his 40s!" card. Even if Stepan took Sather's line of 3 mil on a two year bridge, Stepan would be making more money in those two years than most Americans make in their lifetimes.

Are there arguments that Stepan can make? Sure, but this ain't one of them.

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09-17-2013, 02:10 PM
  #205
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This idea about setting precedent also confuses me, do you guys really think the next rfa without arbitration rights is going to just sign the first thing offered because of the way the Rangers handled past non arbitration eligible rfas?

Same for the leverage idea? Is the next player without leverage, except for holding out or signing an offer sheet, going to give in just because of this leverage without exploring every other option to maximize his guaranteed money?

And how does that work? Does the agent say in a shaky unconfident voice, well we know what the Rangers are going to do so we might as well just sign?

How about the player going forward, is he going to be like, we'll they really have a lot of faith in me offering me a bridge contract and all, I'll give a little next time and sell my UFA years cheap when I have the leverage.

If the Rangers want to sign their non arbitration eligible 2nd line center to a 6M dollar bridge deal under the guise of leverage, they may want to get it done before their 60M dollar ufa top line center that they signed two years ago falls off the map making that 2nd line center their top line center.

Yeah we messed up giving Richards 60M in guaranteed money, please take 1/10th of what we gave him to do the job we signed him to do. Please?

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09-17-2013, 02:16 PM
  #206
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Some people seem to be applying a standard of fairness that, while logical, doesn't actually have any bearing on the situation.

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Old
09-17-2013, 02:18 PM
  #207
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Originally Posted by Tawnos View Post
Some people seem to be applying a standard of fairness that, while logical, doesn't actually have any bearing on the situation.
I haven't seen anyone try to apply logic on this board in a long time.

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Old
09-17-2013, 02:24 PM
  #208
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If I ask a kid how he'd like to make $30,000 a year when he grows up, he'd poop his pants out if excitement. So I don't see how this applies to anything.

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09-17-2013, 02:24 PM
  #209
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Originally Posted by Fire Sather View Post
Making him even older now 10 years ago Stepan would have been wanting a PS2 or Xbox.
Eff that - I want an Intellivision.

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09-17-2013, 02:57 PM
  #210
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Originally Posted by smoneil View Post
I have never bought this argument regarding pro athletes, for two main reasons:

First--look around the league, particularly the periphery. Many of the broadcasters, scouts, team personnel, coaches, etc etc etc are former players. That's not even counting things like speaking engagements or non-NHL non hockey positions. It's not like you have 15 years and then suddenly can't make money anymore.

Second--they (athletes) are making ridiculous money. I'm not saying that they don't deserve it, because the league makes money off of them, but don't play the "he has to make as much as he can in 15 years or he'll go hungry in his 40s!" card. Even if Stepan took Sather's line of 3 mil on a two year bridge, Stepan would be making more money in those two years than most Americans make in their lifetimes.

Are there arguments that Stepan can make? Sure, but this ain't one of them.
I wasn't saying that this was an argument Stepan could or should make. The point of the hypothetical was to provide a whaky hypo opposite of the one in the post I quoted - and another way of looking at the situation.

And if you read the part of my post that you excluded from your quote, you would know that in the context of the real world, I see the differences between the two parties in this "dispute" to be fairly ridiculous and both sides are being petty to a degree. Nor was my post making an argument that players are underpaid. It was completely separate from the issues of fairness you're bringing up; many of which, as I implied, I fundamentally agree with.

Distilling the point I was making down to its bare bones, it was simply: Would anyone in their right mind pass up the opportunity to make half a million to a million more dollars over two years at relatively little harm to themselves or others?

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09-17-2013, 03:01 PM
  #211
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Originally Posted by Off Sides View Post
This idea about setting precedent also confuses me, do you guys really think the next rfa without arbitration rights is going to just sign the first thing offered because of the way the Rangers handled past non arbitration eligible rfas?

Same for the leverage idea? Is the next player without leverage, except for holding out or signing an offer sheet, going to give in just because of this leverage without exploring every other option to maximize his guaranteed money?

And how does that work? Does the agent say in a shaky unconfident voice, well we know what the Rangers are going to do so we might as well just sign?

How about the player going forward, is he going to be like, we'll they really have a lot of faith in me offering me a bridge contract and all, I'll give a little next time and sell my UFA years cheap when I have the leverage.

If the Rangers want to sign their non arbitration eligible 2nd line center to a 6M dollar bridge deal under the guise of leverage, they may want to get it done before their 60M dollar ufa top line center that they signed two years ago falls off the map making that 2nd line center their top line center.

Yeah we messed up giving Richards 60M in guaranteed money, please take 1/10th of what we gave him to do the job we signed him to do. Please?
Every negotiation is based on previously set precedents. The arguments come from each side having a different idea of which precedents fit the current situation. Stepan's agent probably looks at what Duchene got and thinks his client deserves the same. Sather maybe looks at what Kadri got and thinks Stepan only deserves a little more than that.

Richards is in no way, shape or form a comparable contract. Sather knows this. Stepan's agent knows this. His agent isn't going to tell Sather that Stepan deserves more than what Richards got, though I'm sure he will argue that Stepan is the #1 center on the Rangers and therefore deserves more than is being offered.

Agents know how the game works. They don't compare RFA contract to UFA contracts. They compare other players that were recently in the same situation as their client.

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09-17-2013, 03:34 PM
  #212
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Originally Posted by GAGLine View Post
Every negotiation is based on previously set precedents. The arguments come from each side having a different idea of which precedents fit the current situation. Stepan's agent probably looks at what Duchene got and thinks his client deserves the same. Sather maybe looks at what Kadri got and thinks Stepan only deserves a little more than that.

Richards is in no way, shape or form a comparable contract. Sather knows this. Stepan's agent knows this. His agent isn't going to tell Sather that Stepan deserves more than what Richards got, though I'm sure he will argue that Stepan is the #1 center on the Rangers and therefore deserves more than is being offered.

Agents know how the game works. They don't compare RFA contract to UFA contracts. They compare other players that were recently in the same situation as their client.
I'd trade Stepan for Duchene without blinking.

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09-17-2013, 04:19 PM
  #213
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At this point, I am going to start disliking holdy. You're now disrupting the team in a handful of ways.

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09-17-2013, 04:21 PM
  #214
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At this point, I am going to start disliking holdy. You're now disrupting the team in a handful of ways.
Agreed. It was alright at first but now we are getting into the swing of pre-season games. Now its coming down to being selfish.

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09-17-2013, 04:24 PM
  #215
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Stepan is doing what is best for Stepan....just like each and every one of you would do in his shoes.

I commend him for it.

No one is wrong here. There is no right and wrong in thsi situation. Both parties are doing what is best for them.

Sather is trying to manage his cap and Stepan is trying to make as much as he can.

I applaud both sides here.

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09-17-2013, 04:30 PM
  #216
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Holding out is fine for unfair deals. Nothing is unfair about $3M.

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09-17-2013, 04:31 PM
  #217
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Originally Posted by pld459666 View Post
Stepan is doing what is best for Stepan....just like each and every one of you would do in his shoes.

I commend him for it.

No one is wrong here. There is no right and wrong in thsi situation. Both parties are doing what is best for them.

Sather is trying to manage his cap and Stepan is trying to make as much as he can.

I applaud both sides here.
Agreed.

If Stepan doesn't look out for Stepan, who will? Wojtek Goalski? Drewbackatu?

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09-17-2013, 04:33 PM
  #218
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Originally Posted by JCrusty View Post
Holding out is fine for unfair deals. Nothing is unfair about $3M.
and that is your opinion. which you are 100% entitled to.

Im MY opinion, holding out is fine until you get the deal you are happy with. and if the difference of $250k per year extra is the difference between being happy and un happy, thats more than fine as well.

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09-17-2013, 04:36 PM
  #219
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Has there been ANY news?

This is getting ridiculous.

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09-17-2013, 04:37 PM
  #220
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and that is your opinion. which you are 100% entitled to.
I'd say 80%.

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09-17-2013, 04:49 PM
  #221
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I would have to imagine Stepan camp has an end game. When can players be sent down to free up cap?

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09-17-2013, 04:52 PM
  #222
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Originally Posted by pld459666 View Post
Stepan is doing what is best for Stepan....just like each and every one of you would do in his shoes.

I commend him for it.

No one is wrong here. There is no right and wrong in thsi situation. Both parties are doing what is best for them.

Sather is trying to manage his cap and Stepan is trying to make as much as he can.

I applaud both sides here.

Stepan is wrong because he has no cards to play. He has no arbitration rights and we have more depth down the middle than we've had in a long time, including two top 6 centers in Richards and Brassard. We have a very tight salary cap situation.

From a negotiation perspective, all of this makes Stepan expendable. He hasn't produced consistently at an elite pace yet, he had one breakout half season and showed a high ceiling prior to that but didn't perform at a level that warrants anything besides a bridge contract.

He also said in his exit interview that he wants to stay and retire with the Rangers, claiming he cares about the team, but his demand of more pay could cripple at least part of the team because of the cap situation. It's not like Sather wants to sign him to 3 mil a year for the next 6 years, it's a bridge deal. He's still young.

If he wants to be here, and he thinks he can perform at a high level, let him prove it for 2 years. If not, let him get offer sheeted and take the first rounders.

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09-17-2013, 04:53 PM
  #223
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Originally Posted by JCrusty View Post
I would have to imagine Stepan camp has an end game. When can players be sent down to free up cap?
Stepan's only leverage right now is "your forward roster sucks and Im your #1 center."

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09-17-2013, 04:54 PM
  #224
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Stepan is wrong because he has no cards to play. He has no arbitration rights and we have more depth down the middle than we've had in a long time, including two top 6 centers in Richards and Brassard. We have a very tight salary cap situation.

From a negotiation perspective, all of this makes Stepan expendable. He hasn't produced consistently at an elite pace yet, he had one breakout half season and showed a high ceiling prior to that but didn't perform at a level that warrants anything besides a bridge contract.

He also said in his exit interview that he wants to stay and retire with the Rangers, claiming he cares about the team, but his demand of more pay could cripple at least part of the team because of the cap situation. It's not like Sather wants to sign him to 3 mil a year for the next 6 years, it's a bridge deal. He's still young.

If he wants to be here, and he thinks he can perform at a high level, let him prove it for 2 years. If not, let him get offer sheeted and take the first rounders.
If you totally overrate Richards and Brassard, which you've done here, you have a point.

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09-17-2013, 04:59 PM
  #225
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Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
If you totally overrate Richards and Brassard, which you've done here, you have a point.
Calling Richards and Brassard top 6 centers is no more an overrating than calling Stepan a PPG player is. Brassard produced at the same pace as Stepan for us last year, and Richards has made a career out of being a legit top 6 center. He had one bad half season where Stepan and Brass both had one great one.

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