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2013-2014 Training Camp/Preseason Discussion Thread Part 2

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09-17-2013, 10:30 AM
  #551
RangerBoy
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Originally Posted by Blue Blooded View Post
Why do they have these restrictions? 20 days, with 60-90 minute practices is ridiculously little preparation when you think about it.

I'm guessing the players are complaining about workload, to which I say: Get over yourselves. They train and skate all summer anyway, why can't they do that with the coaches supervision?
Its 105 minutes. The PA wants these restrictions. Its in the CBA. Its the same thing in the NFL. Their new CBA changed how teams prepare in training camp.

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09-17-2013, 10:31 AM
  #552
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From: @LavoieRenaud
Sent: Sep 14, 2013 1:01p

Starts of preseason games in the NHL. Teams are required to dress at least 8 veterans. Ex: 100 games + in nhl or first round pick in 2013.

sent via Twitter for BlackBerry
On Twitter: http://twitter.com/LavoieRenaud/stat...26513217077250

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09-17-2013, 10:35 AM
  #553
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Originally Posted by Blue Blooded View Post
A little vacation is fine, but these guys basically have 2-3 months off or even more!

20 days is way too little. 60 days with a bit more practice time is not unreasonable at all IMO.
I don't entirely disagree but also keep in mind that the NHL is an 82 games schedule, almost 30 more games than the SEL. It's a long grind and by the end of it, players are exhausted and almost all are injured. Much of those 2-3 months off are spent recovering and just getting back into game shape.

e: not to mention the playoffs that drag on and add even more games

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09-17-2013, 10:38 AM
  #554
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I'm a hockey player, not a statistician, but what i know for a fact is that when you have a blueliner for each pairing that gets advanced, you want to have a very defensively aware pivot ready to accommodate for them should they lose the puck or go after it on a dump from the blue line in.

Stepan, Anisimov, Boyle, Moore were guys I'd trust with that assignment. Richards and Brassard I absolutely do not. Team has to be aware.

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09-17-2013, 10:49 AM
  #555
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Originally Posted by Fitzy View Post
I'm a hockey player, not a statistician, but what i know for a fact is that when you have a blueliner for each pairing that gets advanced, you want to have a very defensively aware pivot ready to accommodate for them should they lose the puck or go after it on a dump from the blue line in.

Stepan, Anisimov, Boyle, Moore were guys I'd trust with that assignment. Richards and Brassard I absolutely do not. Team has to be aware.
Oh I'm not saying always go for the carry/pass, there still needs to be situational awareness involved. Trying an ambitious entry attempt with no defensive coverage behind is probably not a good idea in any situation.

But there is a definite bias towards avoiding mistakes (a natural human tendency) which leads to suboptimal decisions and tactics. I.E. the benefits of the successes outweigh the disadvantages of the failures.

As was proven in the linked paper, a turnover at the offensive blueline is no more dangerous than a failed dump-and-chase.

And a defenceman skating the puck up the ice is definitely an example of a controlled exit that is likely to lead to a controlled entry, so something that should be encouraged.

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09-17-2013, 10:56 AM
  #556
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Another thing that concerns me is this talk about an emphasis on additional defenseman pinching. I don't think you can coach that the way Joe described it.

Pinching is crucial to sustained, meaningful offensive zone pressure. But it's one of the toughest things to do as a blueliner because it's a split-second decision, and you need to fully commit, or fully back off. You hesitate, and get stuck in-between, and with the speed of forwards in this league it's going to be an odd-man rush the other direction.

I don't want the defenseman having to think about whether or not the coach wants me to pinch in this situation, whilst trying to make that judgement call. That can facilitate hesitancy whilst they reconsider their gut instinct, and second-guess themselves. I understand that when you're behind in the third period, you have to tell the players to pinch. But you don't want to over coach.

Some of our blueliners are good at pinching in. Del Zotto and Girardi. Some of our defensemen, specifically Staal, are very poor at pinching. We should let them figure out what works best.

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Old
09-17-2013, 10:57 AM
  #557
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Levitate View Post
I don't entirely disagree but also keep in mind that the NHL is an 82 games schedule, almost 30 more games than the SEL. It's a long grind and by the end of it, players are exhausted and almost all are injured. Much of those 2-3 months off are spent recovering and just getting back into game shape.
True, but in some cases the games stack up for SEL players too. Lindberg for instance was very busy last season. I dont think he missed a single game neither in his club or the national team. 55 regular + 13 playoff games plus 25 games with Team Sweden. Total 93 games. Probably helped his development. Fast had some injury but still stacked up 61 games.


Last edited by romelson: 09-17-2013 at 11:03 AM.
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Old
09-17-2013, 12:37 PM
  #558
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Originally Posted by RangerBoy View Post
Its 105 minutes. The PA wants these restrictions. Its in the CBA. Its the same thing in the NFL. Their new CBA changed how teams prepare in training camp.
The big issue I have is that not only is it impossible to properly implement a new system efficiently, it also creates a small sample size to create a team and put together lines.

Zuccarello got shafted in 2011-12 where he only got ~5-6 games (pre- and reg. season) before he got sent down. And after taking a stupid penalty in game 1 he hardly got any ice-time at all.

5-6 games with limited ice time is definitely not a big enough sample to evaluate a players game. Zuccarello had just come off a season where he was by far the best possession player on the Rangers, but struggled for three games with limited ice time. He was then sent down and not called back up until March. Despite the deficit of his initial three games, where he posted a negative Corsi in each one, he managed in only six more games (got injured after 2 minutes in the 7th) put his possession numbers solidly back into the black.

Due to his injury, everyone forgot about those six games of good play come the summer and the Rangers made no big effort to sign him. He subsequently went to the KHL and didn't rejoin the team until late in the season. Back into the lineup he once again put up the best possession numbers on the team.

My point with all of this is that with a longer and more extensive camp, Zuccarello would likely have stuck in 11-12 and we would have had a valuable player in the lineup throughout the 11-12 and 12-13 seasons. We could have identified that Christensen wasn't the center for Gaborik in 10-11. McDonagh and Hagelin might have gotten to start their rookie seasons with the big club. Sauer may have gotten a real place in the lineup immediately instead of being thrown in and out for the first ~10 games.


Last edited by Blue Blooded: 09-17-2013 at 01:18 PM.
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Old
09-17-2013, 01:01 PM
  #559
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Anybody find it weird st croix is the only guy not to get any preseason game time? Expect him to be cut from tc roster after philly game anyway, but still.

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09-17-2013, 01:06 PM
  #560
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Anybody find it weird st croix is the only guy not to get any preseason game time? Expect him to be cut from tc roster after philly game anyway, but still.
Josh Nicholls as well.

Dyson Stevenson?
Taylor Burke?
Tommy Hughes?
Peter Trainor?

I think that's it

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09-17-2013, 01:46 PM
  #561
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Originally Posted by Blue Blooded View Post
A little vacation is fine, but these guys basically have 2-3 months off or even more!

20 days is way too little. 60 days with a bit more practice time is not unreasonable at all IMO.
As many have pointed out I think it is in our best interest to allow the players a proper summer to heal their bodies and rest their injuries, recharge mentally, work on their off-ice conditioning to put on more muscle and also spend some time in vacation and/or at home.

These players take a huge amount of punishment, play a huge amount of games and go through an insane amount of travel and having a few months off is necessary imo.

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09-17-2013, 01:46 PM
  #562
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Originally Posted by NYR Viper View Post
Josh Nicholls as well.

Dyson Stevenson?
Taylor Burke?
Tommy Hughes?
Peter Trainor?

I think that's it
How does O'Donnell make the lineup who has 0 future in the NHL while St.Croix has a future if he puts it together. Is this O'Donnell a favor that Sather is doing for someone???

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Old
09-17-2013, 02:02 PM
  #563
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Top 50 NHL D

#10-Mac Truck

Ahead of the guy who signed the big contract at #11

#14-Dan Girardi

#38-Michael Del Zotto

http://espn.go.com/nhl/notebook/_/pa...men/defensemen

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09-17-2013, 02:09 PM
  #564
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15.3 (a) The duration of Training Camp for all Players who have qualified during the preceding Regular Season for at least 50 games credit for Pension Plan purposes shall not be more than 20 days, and shall not be more than 27 days for all other Players.

(b) Players who have qualified during the preceding Regular Season for at least 50 games credit for Pension Plan purposes will, on a voluntary basis, be permitted to receive Training Camp medicals/physicals during the five (5) day period prior to the opening of Training Camp. For all other Players, no Training Camp activities shall be performed prior to the opening of Training Camp.

(c) The first day of Training Camp will be dedicated (and exclusively limited) to off- ice activities, such as medicals/physicals, fitness testing, photographs and other public relations- related matters. During the first four (4) days of on-ice activity at Training Camp (days 2 through 5), ice-time activities will be limited to 1.75 hours and off-ice activities will be limited to 1.25 hours per day, except on Exhibition Game days where these limits shall not apply to Players playing in the Exhibition Game.

(d) Players shall be provided with two (2) mandatory days off during Training Camp, with each Player being provided one (1) day off during the first half of Training Camp and the other day off during the second half of Training Camp. Each Player may be given a different day off. A day off shall be a day off for all purposes, except that if a Club travels following the conclusion of a game, the next day may be considered a day off if the Club is scheduled to arrive at its destination city by no later than 2:00 a.m. local time. If a Club travels on the day following a game (i.e., stays at a hotel overnight and departs the following morning), such day may not be considered a day off.
In the 20 day camp,the first day is just physicals. The players also get 2 days off.

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09-17-2013, 02:17 PM
  #565
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Originally Posted by RangerBoy View Post
Top 50 NHL D

#10-Mac Truck

Ahead of the guy who signed the big contract at #11

#14-Dan Girardi

#38-Michael Del Zotto

http://espn.go.com/nhl/notebook/_/pa...men/defensemen
As much as I like McDonagh, Girardi at #14 and Staal not being included at all make it hard for me to take the list seriously.

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Old
09-17-2013, 02:23 PM
  #566
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As much as I like McDonagh, Girardi at #14 and Staal not being included at all make it hard for me to take the list seriously.
Injury factor.

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Old
09-17-2013, 02:26 PM
  #567
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Pack camp starts Friday

Quote:
Thanks, same here. Camp begins Fri. MT @EMTChris2003: @HawkCrawford when does the Wolfpack open camp? Can't wait to see ya during season
https://twitter.com/HawkCrawford/sta...46877573386240

Quote:
#NYR roster stands at 46, including Stepan (holdout), Callahan and Hagelin (shoulders). AV says more cuts tomorrow, roster down to 37-40
https://twitter.com/AGrossRecord/sta...97313319436288

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09-17-2013, 02:28 PM
  #568
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Injury factor.
Still doesn't explain Girardi at #14, he is nowhere near the 14th best defenceman in the league.

Those were just the most egregious mistakes related to the Rangers. There are a ton of other problems with the list.

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09-17-2013, 03:30 PM
  #569
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Still doesn't explain Girardi at #14, he is nowhere near the 14th best defenceman in the league.

Those were just the most egregious mistakes related to the Rangers. There are a ton of other problems with the list.
You are just egregiously wrong.

Girardi has been recognized as a top Dman in the league by his all star selection, his Norris rankings. This is not something new.
These are his numbers the last 3 years

12-13
GP: 46
TOI: 8th
Hits: 20th
Blocks: 1st
Points: 14
+/-: -1

11-12
GP: 82
TOI: 6th
Hits: 8th
Blocks: 5th
Points: 29
+/-: +13

10-11
GP: 80
TOI: 16th
Hits: 10th
Blocks: 1st
Points: 31
+/-: +7

He is workhorse, who has missed 4 games in his entire career. He's a warrior, plays hurt ... Broken noses. Stiches. Big injuries that would sideline many other hockey players. He consistently plays against the opposition best players and shuts them down. He brings it every night.
29 years old. A very likeable teammate. Someone who doesn't carry any baggage either. Great locker room guy and one of our Alternates.

Girardi is underrated on these boards because he doesn't have the sexy offensive game, it still doesn't take away from his outstanding shutdown D.
Anybody can have a different opinion of Girardi, but the numbers don't lie. They point to Girardi as a top shutdown Dmen in the league.

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09-17-2013, 03:34 PM
  #570
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RangerBoy View Post
Top 50 NHL D

#10-Mac Truck

Ahead of the guy who signed the big contract at #11

#14-Dan Girardi

#38-Michael Del Zotto

http://espn.go.com/nhl/notebook/_/pa...men/defensemen
list is atrocious. Seabrook at 12 is a joke, Staal not even being on it is worse. Letang is way too high for a guy with barely any defensive skill. Pietrangelo should be higher. But whatever it's ESPN.

Edit; Why is Jake Muzzin even ON this list? Played only 18 minutes A/TOI and almost never took a PK shift. I don't get it.

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Old
09-17-2013, 03:40 PM
  #571
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Originally Posted by Kwayry View Post
You are just egregiously wrong.

Girardi has been recognized as a top Dman in the league by his all star selection, his Norris rankings. This is not something new.
These are his numbers the last 3 years

12-13
GP: 46
TOI: 8th
Hits: 20th
Blocks: 1st
Points: 14
+/-: -1

11-12
GP: 82
TOI: 6th
Hits: 8th
Blocks: 5th
Points: 29
+/-: +13

10-11
GP: 80
TOI: 16th
Hits: 10th
Blocks: 1st
Points: 31
+/-: +7

He is workhorse, who has missed 4 games in his entire career. He's a warrior, plays hurt ... Broken noses. Stiches. Big injuries that would sideline many other hockey players. He consistently plays against the opposition best players and shuts them down. He brings it every night.
29 years old. A very likeable teammate. Someone who doesn't carry any baggage either. Great locker room guy and one of our Alternates.

Girardi is underrated on these boards because he doesn't have the sexy offensive game, it still doesn't take away from his outstanding shutdown D.
Anybody can have a different opinion of Girardi, but the numbers don't lie. They point to Girardi as a top shutdown Dmen in the league.
You'd be hard pressed to find another defenseman who has lived as charmed a life as Girardi, who has been lucky enough to play with Staal and McDonagh for the majority of his career.

Take him away from those 2, and his game ultimately slips.

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09-17-2013, 03:43 PM
  #572
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Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
You'd be hard pressed to find another defenseman who has lived as charmed a life as Girardi, who has been lucky enough to play with Staal and McDonagh for the majority of his career.

Take him away from those 2, and his game ultimately slips.
Okay I don't think Girardi is better than Staal or McD and he might be ranked a taaad too high on that list, but you're giving him very little credit. He's a fantastic positional player who makes players miserable. If his skating were better he would be in the top 10, imo. Which I believe is the only real knock on his game. And lack of offense I guess but he's not that type of player.

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09-17-2013, 03:44 PM
  #573
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Girardi is NOT underrated by hfboards. He's a little underrated by this fan base tho

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Old
09-17-2013, 03:46 PM
  #574
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Girardi's biggest problem is that he doesn't move the puck effectively in the defensive zone.

That said, under Torts' system no one really moved the puck effectively in the defensive zone.

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Old
09-17-2013, 03:48 PM
  #575
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Originally Posted by Raspewtin View Post
Okay I don't think Girardi is better than Staal or McD and he might be ranked a taaad too high on that list, but you're giving him very little credit. He's a fantastic positional player who makes players miserable. If his skating were better he would be in the top 10, imo. Which I believe is the only real knock on his game. And lack of offense I guess but he's not that type of player.
Its not that Im giving him little credit. I think hes a very good player. I am just not putting him in the elite category. He is an ideal complimentary piece to an elite partner -- thats obviously wonderful to have.

But if the Rangers ever found themselves in a situation where Girardi would have to be the #1 guy, it wouldnt be so wonderful.

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