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Derek Stepan Negotiations (9/19-Dreger: "Unlikely" Stepan signs before season opens)

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09-18-2013, 08:26 AM
  #276
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Originally Posted by pld459666 View Post
Thank you for making my point.

Theres' no guarantee that he will get better or stay healthy which only intensifies the reasoning for gettign as much as you can today.
I made both points because they are both linked you just chose to acknowledge only one. The point you ignored though is that despite this the reasonable outcome is NOT what Stepan wants. He IS asking for more than he should get. Not a lot more but more nonetheless. I would never argue against him trying to get more for himself especially bc I think he will earn it but I'm also looking at this from what the market and similar situations dictate he should get. I'm also looking at the cap.

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09-18-2013, 08:26 AM
  #277
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That doesn't scare ANYONE



At 3 million he's underpaid.

At 3.5 million he's underpaid.

Now, while I get that he has LIMITED leverage, he still has to think long term.

A 3.25 contract today means a QO of 3.25 in 2 years after this bridge deal expires. Should his development stall for any reason, in order for the Rangers to keep their 45-50+ point scoring center, Stepan is ensuring that he maximizes his potential earning power beyond this contract.

Just like a game of chess, moves made today are done with the eye towards the future.

If his development continues the upward trend, then the next contract will take care of itself.

At the end of the day, the Rangers are trying to limit his money today with an eye towards the future as well.

Stepan, with limited leverage and all, is well within his rights to make sure that should this be his last contract he makes as much as he can.

These guys play a game where career ending injuries happen. They may not happen every year, and they may not happen all that often, but they happen and you have to protect yourself against that when you have the opportunity to do so...such as when you are a Free Agent as Stepan is in this case.

I don't give a good rats arse what he's making. $250k is STILL A LOT OF MONEY
It's not scary, but good enough for ~5 games. That center corps should be somewhere 15-20th in the league, not good, not terrible.

Look, you can't discard the comparables. Would someone give Stepan $6M+ per year as an UFA? Most likely.

But he isn't an UFA, so on a 2-year deal $3M+ is a more than a fair offer. He'll get the long-term $6M/year deal when his 2-year contract expires.

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09-18-2013, 08:31 AM
  #278
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Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
I remember Garden management choosing to pay perpetual loser Patrick Ewing the big money over Messier.

I also remember Checketts asking Messier "How long do you expect us to pay you for '94?" which, 20 years later, is painfully ironic considering how that year STILL gets shoved down our throats.
It was a good question then. It is still a good question today.

The Rangers offered Messier exactly what a better player in Gretzky was making.

After being awarded the 3 years at 6 per post cup that he was set to hold out for, he wanted another 6 per year from the Rangers that was completely un-justified as evidenced by his Vanvouver tenure.

The Canucks couldn't wait to pay him the 2 million buy out of the last two years of the contract he signed. Getting rid of Messier couldn't have happened any faster for that Franchise.

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09-18-2013, 08:36 AM
  #279
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Originally Posted by Riche16 View Post
Really? That's all?

I doubt that's true.
I remember the cup, but I remember that it was more than Messier that won it.

I remember that it was more than Richter that won it.

What is more in my head is the threat of holding out and potentially NOT attending the cup raising ceremony had the 94-95 season started on time.

And I remember the lies that were told during the season that he was more than patient waiting until the off-season so that the Garden brass could get the the Patrick Ewing deal done.

And I remember the Rangers making an offer to Messier that would have paid him EXACTLY what a better player was making and I remember Messier taking a 5 year deal worth 30 million (3 years and 20 million guaranteed) from Vancouver. A contract he was not deserving of at that time.

That's what i remember.

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09-18-2013, 08:37 AM
  #280
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I'm a little surprised by the confidence in Richards, I think he's on the decline. Brassard is way better than he as is Stepan.

Rangers screwed this up, they should have bought out Richards signed Stepan long term and gone into the season with Brassard, Stepan, Moore, Boyle, Miller and Lindberg as their centers.

Blaming it on Stepan is weak, pretty much every other team in the league would have signed their version of Stepan especially after the season he had last year, shortened or not. In fact pretty much every team did sign their non arbitration eligible versions even if they feel they overpaid some. Hodgson, Kadri, Henrique and none of them have as much NHL experience as Stepan.

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09-18-2013, 08:40 AM
  #281
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Originally Posted by shinchanyo View Post
I made both points because they are both linked you just chose to acknowledge only one. The point you ignored though is that despite this the reasonable outcome is NOT what Stepan wants. He IS asking for more than he should get. Not a lot more but more nonetheless. I would never argue against him trying to get more for himself especially bc I think he will earn it but I'm also looking at this from what the market and similar situations dictate he should get. I'm also looking at the cap.
I don't doubt that he's asking for more than he will get, but I would bet it's because the other side is coming in with offers for less that what they will eventually pay him.

This is a negotiation. Sather is not coming in and starting this off with his best and final number. Just as much as Stepan is not coming in with HIS best and final number. they both have a number in mind and they have not gotten there yet.

I've said it countless times, I don't fault anyone here.

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09-18-2013, 08:43 AM
  #282
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Originally Posted by Off Sides View Post
I'm a little surprised by the confidence in Richards, I think he's on the decline. Brassard is way better than he as is Stepan.

Rangers screwed this up, they should have bought out Richards signed Stepan long term and gone into the season with Brassard, Stepan, Moore, Boyle, Miller and Lindberg as their centers.

Blaming it on Stepan is weak, pretty much every other team in the league would have signed their version of Stepan especially after the season he had last year, shortened or not. In fact pretty much every team did sign their non arbitration eligible versions even if they feel they overpaid some. Hodgson, Kadri, Henrique and none of them have as much NHL experience as Stepan.
Hockey is different here.


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09-18-2013, 08:45 AM
  #283
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Originally Posted by pld459666 View Post
It was a good question then. It is still a good question today.

The Rangers offered Messier exactly what a better player in Gretzky was making.

After being awarded the 3 years at 6 per post cup that he was set to hold out for, he wanted another 6 per year from the Rangers that was completely un-justified as evidenced by his Vanvouver tenure.

The Canucks couldn't wait to pay him the 2 million buy out of the last two years of the contract he signed. Getting rid of Messier couldn't have happened any faster for that Franchise.
Not to belabor the point but, how does one of the best players to ever lace 'em up, and one of the best leaders in ANY sport... looking for his retirement contract - even come close to a comparable with Stepan whom I'm a huge fan of, but who has a ton to prove in this league, and is an RFA seeking his 2nd contract?

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09-18-2013, 08:49 AM
  #284
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Originally Posted by pld459666 View Post
I remember the cup, but I remember that it was more than Messier that won it.

I remember that it was more than Richter that won it.

What is more in my head is the threat of holding out and potentially NOT attending the cup raising ceremony had the 94-95 season started on time.

And I remember the lies that were told during the season that he was more than patient waiting until the off-season so that the Garden brass could get the the Patrick Ewing deal done.

And I remember the Rangers making an offer to Messier that would have paid him EXACTLY what a better player was making and I remember Messier taking a 5 year deal worth 30 million (3 years and 20 million guaranteed) from Vancouver. A contract he was not deserving of at that time.

That's what i remember.
Mess was a HUGE part of the Cup. Leetch says it, Richter says it.

If you remember the cup, then you shouldn't begrudge someone looking for a payday on their retirement contract.

I wasn't happy he went to Vancouver either, but it's his prerogative and at that point, he could ask for anything he wanted... someone would give it to him.

Stepan does not have that luxury. Not yet.

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09-18-2013, 09:04 AM
  #285
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Originally Posted by Riche16 View Post
Not to belabor the point but, how does one of the best players to ever lace 'em up, and one of the best leaders in ANY sport... looking for his retirement contract - even come close to a comparable with Stepan whom I'm a huge fan of, but who has a ton to prove in this league, and is an RFA seeking his 2nd contract?
I didn't bring up the comparison, I just elaborated on d-bag move Messier pulled.

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09-18-2013, 09:04 AM
  #286
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Originally Posted by pld459666 View Post
I've said it countless times, I don't fault anyone here.
i agree...i'm sure someone's being stubborn but we won't know who until this is all over-with.
anyhow, this lower cap has also got to be a big factor.

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09-18-2013, 09:10 AM
  #287
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Originally Posted by pld459666 View Post
I didn't bring up the comparison, I just elaborated on d-bag move Messier pulled.
We'll have to disagree that it was a d-bag move.

Straight business decision.

Again, I wasn't happy either... but he already accomplished everything he could in the game at that point... the guy has more cups than a Starbucks. Not much to gain other than $.

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09-18-2013, 09:11 AM
  #288
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Originally Posted by Riche16 View Post
Mess was a HUGE part of the Cup. Leetch says it, Richter says it.

If you remember the cup, then you shouldn't begrudge someone looking for a payday on their retirement contract.

I wasn't happy he went to Vancouver either, but it's his prerogative and at that point, he could ask for anything he wanted... someone would give it to him.

Stepan does not have that luxury. Not yet.
I never said Messier was not a huge part of the cup.

He was paid handsomely for it with teh Rangers making him the highest paid player in the game for the three seasons that followed.

I 1000% disagree that it entitled him to a retirement contract.

He was brought here to do a job. The contract he had stated that should he win the cup he could re-open things and negotiate a new deal. He did and the Rangers paid him.

He ASSUMED that his talents would not diminish and he assumed that fan pressure would force the Gardens hand into signing him to a contract he was no longer deserving of.

He assumed wrong...very wrong.

And the following three seasons displayed the good sense the Rangers had in not resigning him.

Yeah they missed the PO's, but Messier would not have made one bit of difference in that. He was a declining player who's effectiveness had begun to wane. He wasn't worth the 20 million the Canucks paid him

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09-18-2013, 09:12 AM
  #289
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i agree...i'm sure someone's being stubborn but we won't know who until this is all over-with.
anyhow, this lower cap has also got to be a big factor.
they both are.

Stepan is being stubborn as are the Rangers

This is a two way street here.

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09-18-2013, 09:12 AM
  #290
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Originally Posted by pld459666 View Post
That doesn't scare ANYONE



At 3 million he's underpaid.

At 3.5 million he's underpaid.

Now, while I get that he has LIMITED leverage, he still has to think long term.

A 3.25 contract today means a QO of 3.25 in 2 years after this bridge deal expires. Should his development stall for any reason, in order for the Rangers to keep their 45-50+ point scoring center, Stepan is ensuring that he maximizes his potential earning power beyond this contract.

Just like a game of chess, moves made today are done with the eye towards the future.

If his development continues the upward trend, then the next contract will take care of itself.

At the end of the day, the Rangers are trying to limit his money today with an eye towards the future as well.

Stepan, with limited leverage and all, is well within his rights to make sure that should this be his last contract he makes as much as he can.

These guys play a game where career ending injuries happen. They may not happen every year, and they may not happen all that often, but they happen and you have to protect yourself against that when you have the opportunity to do so...such as when you are a Free Agent as Stepan is in this case.

I don't give a good rats arse what he's making. $250k is STILL A LOT OF MONEY
250k is a lot of money if you are talking about $750k salary. It is 33% of that. However it is only 7.6% of 3.25 million and 7.1 % of 3.5 million. It is really not that much.

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09-18-2013, 09:22 AM
  #291
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Originally Posted by pld459666 View Post
I never said Messier was not a huge part of the cup.

He was paid handsomely for it with teh Rangers making him the highest paid player in the game for the three seasons that followed.

I 1000% disagree that it entitled him to a retirement contract.

He was brought here to do a job. The contract he had stated that should he win the cup he could re-open things and negotiate a new deal. He did and the Rangers paid him.

He ASSUMED that his talents would not diminish and he assumed that fan pressure would force the Gardens hand into signing him to a contract he was no longer deserving of.

He assumed wrong...very wrong.

And the following three seasons displayed the good sense the Rangers had in not resigning him.

Yeah they missed the PO's, but Messier would not have made one bit of difference in that. He was a declining player who's effectiveness had begun to wane. He wasn't worth the 20 million the Canucks paid him

Absolutely agree with the bold.

Hindsight is beautiful isn't it?

All kindding aside... Mess wanted his last contract to be a biggie. No prob with that. I also think he was "going to bring a cup to the team he took one away from".

That's how his mind works. But we're derailing this thread at this point.

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09-18-2013, 09:23 AM
  #292
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No need to be a **** simply because I proved your point to be wrong. I have no issues with the contract negotiations. I have an issue if he is holding out over $250k.
The only thing you've proved is that you're taking a big leap of faith with Richards and Brassard. I see zero reason to discredit Stepan's standing as the best center on this team to pump up these 2.

Richards was an embarrassment last season - a mental and physical train wreck. I think he'll have a bounce back season, but its a lot to ask for him to regain his old form as a true #1 center

Brassard has not proven he can be a consistent contributor through a full season, but that hasn't stopped you from guessing that he can based on a couple of good months of play with the Rangers.

So again, the only point you've proven is that you're ready and willing to overstep the bounds of reality because this Stepan situation is pissing you off.

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09-18-2013, 09:28 AM
  #293
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250k is a lot of money if you are talking about $750k salary. It is 33% of that. However it is only 7.6% of 3.25 million and 7.1 % of 3.5 million. It is really not that much.
Re that last line. You keep telling yourself that.

Lol

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09-18-2013, 09:44 AM
  #294
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Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
The only thing you've proved is that you're taking a big leap of faith with Richards and Brassard. I see zero reason to discredit Stepan's standing as the best center on this team to pump up these 2.

Richards was an embarrassment last season - a mental and physical train wreck. I think he'll have a bounce back season, but its a lot to ask for him to regain his old form as a true #1 center

Brassard has not proven he can be a consistent contributor through a full season, but that hasn't stopped you from guessing that he can based on a couple of good months of play with the Rangers.

So again, the only point you've proven is that you're ready and willing to overstep the bounds of reality because this Stepan situation is pissing you off.
Where did I discredit Stepan's standing as the best center? Derek Stepan not signing over 250k is not going to piss me off. I think its ridiculous but I have much more important **** in my life to worry about and get pissed off about than a baby who is holding out over a nominal amount of money. Your angry because I showed you how its all a numbers game and how you look at those numbers. I have never once said Stepan is not the best center on this team. You need to chill and read more carefully.

All I said was
Quote:
If Brassard is over rated because of 1 good shortened season/playoff run then so is Stepan.
I don't see how making a comparison and defending Brassard is undermining Stepan?


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09-18-2013, 09:46 AM
  #295
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Re that last line. You keep telling yourself that.

Lol
I will. You can't argue with math. Perspective is key and $250k is not much when compared to the contract he is signing. In relative terms $250K is a huge amount of a smaller contract and thus would be an appropriate sticking point. In terms of a $3 million dollar + contract is it less than 8% and I find that utterly ridiculous. Im not saying Stepan isn't deserving of it by any means.


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09-18-2013, 09:51 AM
  #296
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He is hurting himself but it might not be to such a significant degree that he can't recover. Hell Staal showed up after months for the WC. Crosby missed almost a full year without skipping a beat. Stepan has no injury. I'm optimistic he'll be fine although the situation does warrant that he get here faster. But really if a player can be traded mid season and adapt to a new system why can't a player do the same to start the year?
Guess you don't really understand the concepts of "New Coach" and "New System" either.

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09-18-2013, 09:57 AM
  #297
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Guess you don't really understand the concepts of "New Coach" and "New System" either.
This is part of the reason why I think he needs to get his ass in camp. New coach, new system and he needs to be as familiar as possible with it before the season starts. We are already going to be missing Callahan and Hagelin and him being in top shape and not having a rusty start is even more important.

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09-18-2013, 10:09 AM
  #298
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I will. You can't argue with math. Perspective is key and $250k is not much when compared to the contract he is signing. In relative terms $250K is a huge amount of a smaller contract and thus would be an appropriate sticking point. In terms of a $3 million dollar + contract is it less than 8% and I find that utterly ridiculous. Im not saying Stepan isn't deserving of it by any means.
Perspective?

a quarter million is a quarter million is a quarter million.

You want to minimize the number by equating it to % of X by all means do so, at the end of the day it's still $250,000.00

translated that means it's ALOT OF MONEY

And we are talking per year so in REALITY it's half a million over 2 years.

Of course Sather and his team are going to try to minimize the impact by bring in fractions and such, but to the player they see the real number and it's NOT 7.6% or 7.1%

It's $250,000.00 per and $500,000.00 on the total.

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09-18-2013, 10:30 AM
  #299
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Honest question: why is everyone so optimistic that Step is a PPG player now? He did it for half of one season.

I want him to be that just as much as anybody else, but I kinda feel that people are defaulting to the blame the GM position and taking Stepan's side and assuming that he can and will do everything they want of him. I'm not really convinced.

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09-18-2013, 10:33 AM
  #300
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Which one of u last year early in the season said there were 5 better players at his rec center than Steps? And half of u wanted him shipped out..Bipolar at its finest

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