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Mika Zibanejad second line centre?

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Old
09-16-2013, 06:37 AM
  #76
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Luke Richardson and his coaching staff voted him Bingo's MVP and best defensive forward last season... Grant also led the AHL in shorthanded goals.
Did Corey Locke ever win any of those awards?

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09-16-2013, 07:11 AM
  #77
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Did Corey Locke ever win any of those awards?
Nope he did not

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09-16-2013, 07:42 AM
  #78
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Grant had a great season last year, and was rewarded with NHL games. That said, he is older and has more pro experience than Pageau.

It is easy to see who the Org. is higher on, no matter the accolades given by Bingo's coaching staff.

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09-16-2013, 09:21 AM
  #79
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All I'm saying in five years when both are established NHLers, they will be similarly valued.

I'm looking at the players long term.

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09-16-2013, 09:37 AM
  #80
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Sorry, I just find it hypocritical when you say that Karlsson is the best defenceman on the team because he "helps keep the puck out"... yet you roast Spezza defensively, despite the fact that their giveaway totals are literally exactly the same (they both tied for the team lead in their last healthy season -2011/12 - with 84 giveaways each, respectively).

C'mon, man. Double standard.
omg the Spezza-Karlsson comparisons in this thread are reDQless


I didn't even mention giveaways... but I'll play along. In 2011-12, Karlsson had more takeaways (and a better takeaway-giveaway ratio) than Spezza. Which is an impressive feat, because defensemen (such as Karlsson) don't get a lot of takeaways. Karlsson was 12th in the league with 67, while the 2nd defenseman was none other than Shea Weber at 47th in the league. Only two cracked the top 50, and that was the two best defensemen.

Looking at giveaways, 5 out of the top 10 are defenseman. It's split 50/50.

So while Karlsson gives away the puck, he 1-has better giveaway takeaway ratio than Spezza and (most importantly) 2-does it from a position where it's much harder to get credited with a takeaway (so, relatively speaking considering position, Karlsson >>>>> Spezza at takeaways).

Karlsson IMPROVED on his takeaways per game this year, and had a top 5 in the league pace in his 17 games.


Methot is better defensively than Karlsson in the defensive zone (Karlsson is no slouch, he has good positioning and impeccable stick work). Why Karlsson is so effective defensively (and why he is specifically put out there against top lines, unlike Spezza) is because he keeps the puck away from the other team.

So while you point to giveaway numbers, I say that's because he is in possession of the puck so much (it's bound to happen sometimes). With Karlsson on the ice, the Sens' Corsi goes up soooo much. Corsi is pretty much shot attempts at the net. The higher the number, the more you outshoot (or out-attempt) your opponent. So people use this to measure puck possession; if you have the puck more, you shoot more. Regardless, Karlsson tilts the ice towards the other end. It's a barrage of shots towards the other net. In essence, the puck does not spend much time in the defensive zone when Karlsson is on.

Spezza on the other hand is decent at Corsi but nowhere near Karlsson.

My point wasn't about giveaways. Karlsson is far superior to Spezza in defensive positioning, defensive IQ, stick work and quite honestly just flat out effort.

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09-16-2013, 09:46 AM
  #81
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Tl;dr

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09-16-2013, 09:48 AM
  #82
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Tl;dr
Essentially why Karlsson is better defensively than Spezza. if you already disagree with Bonk's post, no need to read

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09-16-2013, 09:49 AM
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One area defensively where Spezza is important is on face-offs, and he's gotten really good.

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09-16-2013, 11:26 AM
  #84
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Originally Posted by MandyAlwaysKnows View Post
omg the Spezza-Karlsson comparisons in this thread are reDQless


I didn't even mention giveaways... but I'll play along. In 2011-12, Karlsson had more takeaways (and a better takeaway-giveaway ratio) than Spezza. Which is an impressive feat, because defensemen (such as Karlsson) don't get a lot of takeaways. Karlsson was 12th in the league with 67, while the 2nd defenseman was none other than Shea Weber at 47th in the league. Only two cracked the top 50, and that was the two best defensemen.

Looking at giveaways, 5 out of the top 10 are defenseman. It's split 50/50.

So while Karlsson gives away the puck, he 1-has better giveaway takeaway ratio than Spezza and (most importantly) 2-does it from a position where it's much harder to get credited with a takeaway (so, relatively speaking considering position, Karlsson >>>>> Spezza at takeaways).

Karlsson IMPROVED on his takeaways per game this year, and had a top 5 in the league pace in his 17 games.


Methot is better defensively than Karlsson in the defensive zone (Karlsson is no slouch, he has good positioning and impeccable stick work). Why Karlsson is so effective defensively (and why he is specifically put out there against top lines, unlike Spezza) is because he keeps the puck away from the other team.

So while you point to giveaway numbers, I say that's because he is in possession of the puck so much (it's bound to happen sometimes). With Karlsson on the ice, the Sens' Corsi goes up soooo much. Corsi is pretty much shot attempts at the net. The higher the number, the more you outshoot (or out-attempt) your opponent. So people use this to measure puck possession; if you have the puck more, you shoot more. Regardless, Karlsson tilts the ice towards the other end. It's a barrage of shots towards the other net. In essence, the puck does not spend much time in the defensive zone when Karlsson is on.

Spezza on the other hand is decent at Corsi but nowhere near Karlsson.

My point wasn't about giveaways. Karlsson is far superior to Spezza in defensive positioning, defensive IQ, stick work and quite honestly just flat out effort.
Woah woah woah there, chief.

No one is trying to compare Spezza vs Karlsson. My point was that you use one metric in favor of one player when evaluating defensive skill among his peers (in Karlsson's case: defencemen), and not when evaluating another player (in Spezza's case: centers)

All I'm getting from this is that Methot is better than Karlsson defensively (in his own zone, killing penalties, etc...), but Karlsson simply doesn't have to be as good defensively because he "tilts the ice". Which I agree with. Completely. Never said otherwise. Methot is the better defensive player, and Karlsson can get away with not being as good because he's light-years better offensively (particularly, in puck possession).

So, in summary on the Methot vs Karlsson thing:
Defence - Methot >(>) Karlsson.
Offence - Karlsson >>>>>>>>(>>>)... (>>>) Methot.

Can we agree on that? Great.



Now, getting back to Spezza vs Pageau/Zibanejad, defensively...

Can we not apply the Karlsson logic, here? Literally, the exact same arguments you used in favor of Karlsson, only for forwards/centers?

a) Spezza's giveaway totals are high because when he's on the ice, he has the puck FAR more than any forward on the team.
b) In 2012, he led the team in corsi among forwards.
c) In 2012, who was 10th in the entire league in takeaways among centers? Well, that would be Spezza! (and for the record, Spezza ALSO had a top-5-in-the-league takeaway rate amongst centers in his limited games in 2013, though it's a smaller number of games played than Karlsson had).

Are these not the exact same arguments you just used in favor of Karlsson vs Spezza? They are, right? So can't we then use the same arguments in favor of Spezza vs Pageau/Zibanejad? We can? OK then.


So, let's bring this round-circle, shall we?


How can you claim that Karlsson is "better defensively" than Methot because of his advanced offensive/ puck possession skills (thus overlooking Methot's actual defensive skill), and then in the same breath say that Pageau is better defensively than Spezza despite Spezza having every right to use the same argument you are using in favor of Karlsson?

This isn't "Spezza vs Karlsson", this is "why are you using one set of data to declare Karlsson better defensively than Methot, then omitting that very same data entirely in favor of another metric when comparing Spezza to Pageau/Zibanejad?"

You are not being consistent. You are picking one set of information when it suits your argument in favor of one player, and picking another set entirely when arguing essentially the exact same debate about another player at his respective position.


Last edited by BonkTastic: 09-16-2013 at 11:32 AM.
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Old
09-16-2013, 12:50 PM
  #85
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Originally Posted by BonkTastic View Post
Woah woah woah there, chief.

No one is trying to compare Spezza vs Karlsson. My point was that you use one metric in favor of one player when evaluating defensive skill among his peers (in Karlsson's case: defencemen), and not when evaluating another player (in Spezza's case: centers)

All I'm getting from this is that Methot is better than Karlsson defensively (in his own zone, killing penalties, etc...), but Karlsson simply doesn't have to be as good defensively because he "tilts the ice". Which I agree with. Completely. Never said otherwise. Methot is the better defensive player, and Karlsson can get away with not being as good because he's light-years better offensively (particularly, in puck possession).

So, in summary on the Methot vs Karlsson thing:
Defence - Methot >(>) Karlsson.
Offence - Karlsson >>>>>>>>(>>>)... (>>>) Methot.

Can we agree on that? Great.



Now, getting back to Spezza vs Pageau/Zibanejad, defensively...

Can we not apply the Karlsson logic, here? Literally, the exact same arguments you used in favor of Karlsson, only for forwards/centers?

a) Spezza's giveaway totals are high because when he's on the ice, he has the puck FAR more than any forward on the team.
b) In 2012, he led the team in corsi among forwards.
c) In 2012, who was 10th in the entire league in takeaways among centers? Well, that would be Spezza! (and for the record, Spezza ALSO had a top-5-in-the-league takeaway rate amongst centers in his limited games in 2013, though it's a smaller number of games played than Karlsson had).

Are these not the exact same arguments you just used in favor of Karlsson vs Spezza? They are, right? So can't we then use the same arguments in favor of Spezza vs Pageau/Zibanejad? We can? OK then.


So, let's bring this round-circle, shall we?


How can you claim that Karlsson is "better defensively" than Methot because of his advanced offensive/ puck possession skills (thus overlooking Methot's actual defensive skill), and then in the same breath say that Pageau is better defensively than Spezza despite Spezza having every right to use the same argument you are using in favor of Karlsson?

This isn't "Spezza vs Karlsson", this is "why are you using one set of data to declare Karlsson better defensively than Methot, then omitting that very same data entirely in favor of another metric when comparing Spezza to Pageau/Zibanejad?"

You are not being consistent. You are picking one set of information when it suits your argument in favor of one player, and picking another set entirely when arguing essentially the exact same debate about another player at his respective position.
That was well worth the read.

Unfortunately Mandy doesn't like Spezza and therefore the whole thing will fall on deaf ears. A shame really, as it was a very well laid out, and unassailable point.

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09-16-2013, 12:59 PM
  #86
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Originally Posted by MandyAlwaysKnows View Post
Essentially why Karlsson is better defensively than Spezza. if you already disagree with Bonk's post, no need to read
Well no **** he's better. Who's the one playing "defense"?

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09-16-2013, 01:08 PM
  #87
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Originally Posted by BonkTastic View Post
Woah woah woah there, chief.

No one is trying to compare Spezza vs Karlsson. My point was that you use one metric in favor of one player when evaluating defensive skill among his peers (in Karlsson's case: defencemen), and not when evaluating another player (in Spezza's case: centers)

All I'm getting from this is that Methot is better than Karlsson defensively (in his own zone, killing penalties, etc...), but Karlsson simply doesn't have to be as good defensively because he "tilts the ice". Which I agree with. Completely. Never said otherwise. Methot is the better defensive player, and Karlsson can get away with not being as good because he's light-years better offensively (particularly, in puck possession).

So, in summary on the Methot vs Karlsson thing:
Defence - Methot >(>) Karlsson.
Offence - Karlsson >>>>>>>>(>>>)... (>>>) Methot.

Can we agree on that? Great.
Remember when I said Karlsson ''keeps the puck out''? I meant out of the net. That's what I mean about best defensively. Whoever allows the Sens to give up the least amount of goals is best defensively. I'm not limiting defense to defensive zone play. Karlsson > Methot defensively. So no, I don't agree.

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Originally Posted by BonkTastic View Post
Now, getting back to Spezza vs Pageau/Zibanejad, defensively...

Can we not apply the Karlsson logic, here? Literally, the exact same arguments you used in favor of Karlsson, only for forwards/centers?

a) Spezza's giveaway totals are high because when he's on the ice, he has the puck FAR more than any forward on the team.
b) In 2012, he led the team in corsi among forwards.
c) In 2012, who was 10th in the entire league in takeaways among centers? Well, that would be Spezza! (and for the record, Spezza ALSO had a top-5-in-the-league takeaway rate amongst centers in his limited games in 2013, though it's a smaller number of games played than Karlsson had).

Are these not the exact same arguments you just used in favor of Karlsson vs Spezza? They are, right? So can't we then use the same arguments in favor of Spezza vs Pageau/Zibanejad? We can? OK then.
a) agreed to some extent, he probably has the puck on his own stick more. However, Spezza's giveaways are often of the ''bad'' quality. Not only do the Sens lose possession, but it leads to good scoring chance the other way. You know what I'm talking about. Never been an issue with the other 3. But again, before replying to you I never even mentioned giveaways as a concern.

b) Alfredsson lead the team in Corsi, and Turris also had a better net Corsi than Spezza (Spezza is higher in RelCorsi, explained by the Sens being lower overall before Turris arrived). Also, Spezza spent 54.3% of all his ice time with Karlsson, which is much more than any player in total ice time (and more than anyone in percentage too). Karlsson inflated Spezza's Corsi big time. And no, it's not the other way around because:
- Karlsson was a good deal higher than Spezza
- Karlsson's Corsi shot up again in 2012-13 despite no Spezza (or should I say because of no Spezza)

c) 10th among centres is cool. Pretty good but not amazing. Certainly not even close to as good as Karlsson. Regardless, takeaways aren't the be all end all. Tavares and Grabner were top 5 in the league and I certainly don't consider them good defensive players. I wouldn't even have mentioned takeaways if you didn't mention giveaways.

And no, we cannot use these argument in favour of Spezza vs Pageau/Zibanejad. Zibanejad's Corsi this year = to Spezza's last year. Almost identical despite extremely limited ice time with Karlsson.

Pageau on the other had the highest Corsi on the team (3rd using RelCorsi). Pageau is a Corsi machine.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BonkTastic View Post
So, let's bring this round-circle, shall we?


How can you claim that Karlsson is "better defensively" than Methot because of his advanced offensive/ puck possession skills (thus overlooking Methot's actual defensive skill), and then in the same breath say that Pageau is better defensively than Spezza despite Spezza having every right to use the same argument you are using in favor of Karlsson?
See above, Spezza is not better at all. Pageau actually had a higher Corsi than King Corsi Karlsson this year. In the playoffs, Pageau was 6th on the team, ahead of Spezza.

Not only is Pageau better than Spezza at puck possession, he is also better defensively in the traditional Methot-style. Pageau is better in the D zone.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BonkTastic View Post
This isn't "Spezza vs Karlsson", this is "why are you using one set of data to declare Karlsson better defensively than Methot, then omitting that very same data entirely in favor of another metric when comparing Spezza to Pageau/Zibanejad?"

You are not being consistent. You are picking one set of information when it suits your argument in favor of one player, and picking another set entirely when arguing essentially the exact same debate about another player at his respective position.
yes I am^^^^^^

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09-16-2013, 01:09 PM
  #88
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Well no **** he's better. Who's the one playing "defense"?
OK, Karlsson relative to other defensemen is better defensively than Spezza relative to other centres.

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09-16-2013, 01:25 PM
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Probably, but we'll see how Spezza does this season. The past few years he's been above average defensively. And just his faceoffs make him good defensively already. Give instant puck possession.

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09-16-2013, 01:29 PM
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Probably, but we'll see how Spezza does this season. The past few years he's been above average defensively. And just his faceoffs make him good defensively already. Give instant puck possession.
Faceoffs are just one puck possession play. They are many puck possession plays just over the course of one shift.

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09-16-2013, 01:33 PM
  #91
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Faceoffs are just one puck possession play. They are many puck possession plays just over the course of one shift.
After seeing Travis Green almost singlehandedly put the Sens away back in the day in the faceoff dot, I'm never going to underestimate faceoffs again.

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09-16-2013, 03:04 PM
  #92
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After seeing Travis Green almost singlehandedly put the Sens away back in the day in the faceoff dot, I'm never going to underestimate faceoffs again.
Totally... It was brutal

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09-16-2013, 04:34 PM
  #93
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Totally... It was brutal
Yup, an offensive faceoff win almost always leads to a chance on net.

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09-16-2013, 06:39 PM
  #94
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Originally Posted by BonkTastic View Post
Woah woah woah there, chief.

No one is trying to compare Spezza vs Karlsson. My point was that you use one metric in favor of one player when evaluating defensive skill among his peers (in Karlsson's case: defencemen), and not when evaluating another player (in Spezza's case: centers)

All I'm getting from this is that Methot is better than Karlsson defensively (in his own zone, killing penalties, etc...), but Karlsson simply doesn't have to be as good defensively because he "tilts the ice". Which I agree with. Completely. Never said otherwise. Methot is the better defensive player, and Karlsson can get away with not being as good because he's light-years better offensively (particularly, in puck possession).

So, in summary on the Methot vs Karlsson thing:
Defence - Methot >(>) Karlsson.
Offence - Karlsson >>>>>>>>(>>>)... (>>>) Methot.

Can we agree on that? Great.



Now, getting back to Spezza vs Pageau/Zibanejad, defensively...

Can we not apply the Karlsson logic, here? Literally, the exact same arguments you used in favor of Karlsson, only for forwards/centers?

a) Spezza's giveaway totals are high because when he's on the ice, he has the puck FAR more than any forward on the team.
b) In 2012, he led the team in corsi among forwards.
c) In 2012, who was 10th in the entire league in takeaways among centers? Well, that would be Spezza! (and for the record, Spezza ALSO had a top-5-in-the-league takeaway rate amongst centers in his limited games in 2013, though it's a smaller number of games played than Karlsson had).

Are these not the exact same arguments you just used in favor of Karlsson vs Spezza? They are, right? So can't we then use the same arguments in favor of Spezza vs Pageau/Zibanejad? We can? OK then.


So, let's bring this round-circle, shall we?


How can you claim that Karlsson is "better defensively" than Methot because of his advanced offensive/ puck possession skills (thus overlooking Methot's actual defensive skill), and then in the same breath say that Pageau is better defensively than Spezza despite Spezza having every right to use the same argument you are using in favor of Karlsson?

This isn't "Spezza vs Karlsson", this is "why are you using one set of data to declare Karlsson better defensively than Methot, then omitting that very same data entirely in favor of another metric when comparing Spezza to Pageau/Zibanejad?"

You are not being consistent. You are picking one set of information when it suits your argument in favor of one player, and picking another set entirely when arguing essentially the exact same debate about another player at his respective position.
Maybe the smartest and most well thought out posts I have read on this site

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09-18-2013, 07:57 AM
  #95
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Weird. We have one of the 8 active career PPG players in the NHL today and some guy wants to switch him so that some unproven, potential 2nd line center might be better defensively because of the BS that behind the net writes.

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09-18-2013, 09:53 AM
  #96
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MAK has always been against Spezza and every time a legitimate point is made in his favour he skirts around it.

However this is often seen in most topics regarding Spezza when compared to other players (Tavares, for example). The reality is that nobody will ever give Spezza his dues unless he does something ridiculous like lead this team to the cup as the captain. Even then people will claim that Spezza was carried by Karlsson or something.

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09-18-2013, 10:04 AM
  #97
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Originally Posted by Cujomi View Post
MAK has always been against Spezza and every time a legitimate point is made in his favour he skirts around it.

However this is often seen in most topics regarding Spezza when compared to other players (Tavares, for example). The reality is that nobody will ever give Spezza his dues unless he does something ridiculous like lead this team to the cup as the captain. Even then people will claim that Spezza was carried by Karlsson or something.
It was the same thing with Alfie for years. Then he went beast mode on our way to the finals. From that point on he could do no wrong in this city (well, until this summer at least...)

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09-18-2013, 10:26 AM
  #98
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It was the same thing with Alfie for years. Then he went beast mode on our way to the finals. From that point on he could do no wrong in this city (well, until this summer at least...)
Oddly enough Spezza was also in "beast mode" during our cup run.

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09-18-2013, 10:30 AM
  #99
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Oddly enough Spezza was also in "beast mode" during our cup run.
Until the final.

But yes, in the first three rounds, he was playing incredibly well. Yzerman comparisons were coming up - forechecking, backchecking, good on face-offs, crazy production.

Heatley was the passenger.

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09-18-2013, 10:44 AM
  #100
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Originally Posted by NyQuil View Post
Until the final.

But yes, in the first three rounds, he was playing incredibly well. Yzerman comparisons were coming up - forechecking, backchecking, good on face-offs, crazy production.

Heatley was the passenger.
Spezza's 2012 season was better than any season that Alfie ever had for the Sens and is up there with Yashin's near MVP season. Too bad he ended up getting dragged down by the super defensive Rangers with the hottest goalie in the land (against whom he still had 5 points in 7 games, with 3 goals). He has always performed in the playoffs, and he's been our best forward for a long time now.

He had his best ever season the first time he was thrust into a leadership role, and I think that we're going to see that trend continue if he can stay healthy this year. He has more tools, and hopefully he's fully rested and healed.

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