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Derek Stepan Negotiations (9/19-Dreger: "Unlikely" Stepan signs before season opens)

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09-18-2013, 10:37 AM
  #301
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Originally Posted by haveandare View Post
Honest question: why is everyone so optimistic that Step is a PPG player now? He did it for half of one season.

I want him to be that just as much as anybody else, but I kinda feel that people are defaulting to the blame the GM position and taking Stepan's side and assuming that he can and will do everything they want of him. I'm not really convinced.
Honest answer: Nobody is convinced hes a PPG player. Theres only a handful of them in the league.

What Im convinced of is hes this team's best center and needs to be in camp ASAP

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09-18-2013, 10:40 AM
  #302
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Originally Posted by pld459666 View Post
Perspective?

a quarter million is a quarter million is a quarter million.

You want to minimize the number by equating it to % of X by all means do so, at the end of the day it's still $250,000.00

translated that means it's ALOT OF MONEY

And we are talking per year so in REALITY it's half a million over 2 years.

Of course Sather and his team are going to try to minimize the impact by bring in fractions and such, but to the player they see the real number and it's NOT 7.6% or 7.1%

It's $250,000.00 per and $500,000.00 on the total.
Im not minimizing it. Im being realistic and in reality $250,000 a year is small potato's when compared to the size of the contract. I don't blame him for wanting the extra $250K. Where I think its wrong that he is holding out over that amount of money is because we have a new coaching staff and a new system. Stepan as our #1C is going to be an integral part of that system.

With Callahan and Hagelin out to start the season, we need Stepan more than every to come out of the gate flying. He may not be able to do that if he holds out until the season starts.

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09-18-2013, 10:41 AM
  #303
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Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
Honest answer: Nobody is convinced hes a PPG player. Theres only a handful of them in the league.

What Im convinced of is hes this team's best center and needs to be in camp ASAP
Can't argue with that.

Maybe I'm filling in the blanks too generously, but it seems like most posts take it for granted that the player we saw for 40 games last year is the player that Step is going to be from now on. He needs to take a reasonable bridge deal and really prove that he's that player. He's putting himself behind the 8 ball here in my opinion.

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09-18-2013, 10:43 AM
  #304
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Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
Honest answer: Nobody is convinced hes a PPG player. Theres only a handful of them in the league.

What Im convinced of is hes this team's best center and needs to be in camp ASAP
Most people don't disagree and neither do I. I just made the same point. Where I do disagree is you getting your "panties in a bunch" because I simply played Devils Advocate. These boards are about discussion, not ridicule and your anger because some one disagrees does nothing to foster discussion, it hampers it.

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09-18-2013, 10:43 AM
  #305
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Originally Posted by pld459666 View Post
I remember the cup, but I remember that it was more than Messier that won it.

I remember that it was more than Richter that won it.

What is more in my head is the threat of holding out and potentially NOT attending the cup raising ceremony had the 94-95 season started on time.

And I remember the lies that were told during the season that he was more than patient waiting until the off-season so that the Garden brass could get the the Patrick Ewing deal done.

And I remember the Rangers making an offer to Messier that would have paid him EXACTLY what a better player was making and I remember Messier taking a 5 year deal worth 30 million (3 years and 20 million guaranteed) from Vancouver. A contract he was not deserving of at that time.

That's what i remember.
Mess is the main reason they won that cup. Every single Rangers fan knows that. Did other players play great, yea. But he willed them there.

The fact that you remember him leaving over the cup is a joke. I don't care if we traded away the entire roster, Messier played for us for one year, won them the cup and then spurned us.

1 cup in what is it now, 74 years. Give me a break.

And anyone saying we should have bought out Richards and given Stepan more than 3.5 is off their rocker. You don't win a cup with Moore or Boyle as your third line center. If Richards has a season like last year, he will still be one of the best 3rd line centers in the NHL.

Stepan wants more than Duchene money wise and term and the cap is currently lower. Duchene is a better player and had a 67 point season under his belt.

Stepan should take the 2 year deal. 3.2-3.3 and prove that he can maintain this level of play over the coruse of a full season. He will be handsomly rewarded if he ups or continues his player for the 2 years.

And if he wants to miss out on money and playing, then he can wait for an offer sheet that may never come. This has nothin to do with cap management. This has to do with the way the Rangers have run their business by not giving in to players that have no leverage.

They give in to him, what happens if Kreider has a huge year this year. Or Fast and Lindberg have good years leading up to there bridge years. It sets a precedent that would potentially keep us from keeping other young players.

If stepan wants to sit at home and watch his team win games without him, then by all means do that. He'll give in soon enough and if he doesn't, then i couldn't care less.


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09-18-2013, 10:46 AM
  #306
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Old
09-18-2013, 10:47 AM
  #307
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Originally Posted by 16 To Stanley View Post
Mess is the main reason they won that cup. Every single Rangers fan knows that. Did other players play great, yea. But he willed them there.

The fact that you remember him leaving over the cup is a joke.

I don't care we traded away the entire roster, Messier played for us for one year, won them the cup and then spurned us.

1 cup in what is it now, 74 years. Give me a break.

And anyone saying we should have bought out Richards and given Stepan more than 3.5 is off their rocker.

You don't win a cup with Moore or Boyle as your third line center. If Richards has a season like last year, he will still be one of the best 3rd line centers in the NHL.

Stepan wants more than Duchene money wise and term and the cap is currently lower. Duchene is a better player and had a 67 point season under his belt.

Stepan should take the 2 year deal. 3.2-3.3 and prove that he can maintain this level of play over the coruse of a full season. He will be handsomly rewarded if he ups or continues his player for the 2 years.

And if he wants to miss out on money and playing, then he can wait for an offer sheet that may never come.

This has nothin to do with cap management. This has to do with the way the Rangers have run their business by not giving in to players that have no leverage.

They give in to him, what happens if Kreider has a huge year this year. Or Fast and Lindberg have good years leading up to there bridge years.

It sets a precedent that would potentially keep us from keeping other young players.

If stepan wants to sit at home and watch his team win games without him, then by all means do that. He'll give in soon enough and if he doesn't, then i couldn't care less.
Exactly. Stepan is looking for a contract that he would have gotten had the cap not been lowered.

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09-18-2013, 10:50 AM
  #308
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Originally Posted by haveandare View Post
Honest question: why is everyone so optimistic that Step is a PPG player now? He did it for half of one season.

I want him to be that just as much as anybody else, but I kinda feel that people are defaulting to the blame the GM position and taking Stepan's side and assuming that he can and will do everything they want of him. I'm not really convinced.
I for one have never insinuated that he was a point a game player.

Don't think that anyone is saying that that is what he is.

If he were a point a game guy, this is not a discussion we are having.

Either the Rangers would have given him his 5-6 per year over 8 years or some other team would have.

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09-18-2013, 10:51 AM
  #309
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Originally Posted by haveandare View Post
Can't argue with that.

Maybe I'm filling in the blanks too generously, but it seems like most posts take it for granted that the player we saw for 40 games last year is the player that Step is going to be from now on. He needs to take a reasonable bridge deal and really prove that he's that player. He's putting himself behind the 8 ball here in my opinion.
According to the rumors of what has been offered, compared to what other team's players in the exact same situation signed for, players who have less NHL experience and a worse resume than Stepan, there is no reasonable deal to take.

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09-18-2013, 11:02 AM
  #310
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Originally Posted by Gardner McKay View Post
Exactly. Stepan is looking for a contract that he would have gotten had the cap not been lowered.
And the Rangers could be offering a contract looking to pay him had the cap gone down further.

If we assume that Stepan is asking 3.8 per, pure speculation on my part based on the report that he wanted more than Matt D got in Colorado, logic tells me that Sather and the Rangers came in at a number significantly under 3 million per. And since I look at a few hundred thousand dollars as significant I can see the Rangers initial offer in the 2.75k to 2.85k range.

Someone above stated that he should sign the 3.2-3.3 per year bridge deal, yet we have no idea if that has ever been laid on the table by the Rangers.

I would agree that if plated, Stepan SHOULD accept 3.25 per. We don't know WHAT has been offered.

But I have no problems if Stepan tried as hard as he could to get north of 3.5. I'd have no issues with that at all.

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09-18-2013, 11:06 AM
  #311
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According to the rumors of what has been offered, compared to what other team's players in the exact same situation signed for, players who have less NHL experience and a worse resume than Stepan, there is no reasonable deal to take.
In a vacuum, maybe not. In this context, where he has no leverage and is currently missing maybe the most important camp of his career - there is a reasonable deal. 2 years, 3-3.5 per. Sign it and play. Earn that next payday. Yeah, maybe his career will somehow end tragically before then. Maybe a lot of things. Most likely scenario by far, he'll play more and make way more.

Other players got more because their GMs are careless, or they see that player very differently. If I were on NYR, I wouldn't be crossing my fingers that our management started taking cues from the leafs.

I'm as happy as anybody that he looks like he took a big step last year. But, he hasn't established himself as that tier of player yet. He's not going to, and shouldn't, be paid like it.

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09-18-2013, 11:32 AM
  #312
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Other players got more because their GMs are careless
Yes, and our GM is a beacon of financial restraint.

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09-18-2013, 11:35 AM
  #313
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Yes, and our GM is a beacon of financial restraint.
Yeah, let's hope NYR bases their strategies for signing players on those that the Maple Leafs use. They're always contenders. They don't have a handful of hilariously overpaid guys that are depended on to play far above their heads.

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09-18-2013, 11:36 AM
  #314
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This just needs to get done. I am not frustrated yet. But I am more concerned with Stepan joining the team so he can get acclimated with the new coach and system, especially the PP.

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09-18-2013, 11:38 AM
  #315
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Stepan needs to sign the damn deal. He's had two good seasons and one very good one (which was not even a full season so we have no idea how he'd do over 82 games).

He's also been terrible in the playoffs. His .38 PPG does not warrant much over what Sather is offering.

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09-18-2013, 11:45 AM
  #316
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Yeah, let's hope NYR bases their strategies for signing players on those that the Maple Leafs use. They're always contenders. They don't have a handful of hilariously overpaid guys that are depended on to play far above their heads.
If Toronto had a Lundqvist to mask the roster construction mistakes/blunders, those two teams would be a lot more similar than you think.

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09-18-2013, 11:47 AM
  #317
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Who is Stepan's agent and has that agent worked for other players who've held out? Just curious, really hoping this all doesn't go south and I'd like to see Stepan getting used to AV and the new guys.

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09-18-2013, 11:51 AM
  #318
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Originally Posted by 16 To Stanley View Post
Mess is the main reason they won that cup. Every single Rangers fan knows that. Did other players play great, yea. But he willed them there.

The fact that you remember him leaving over the cup is a joke. I don't care if we traded away the entire roster, Messier played for us for one year, won them the cup and then spurned us.

1 cup in what is it now, 74 years. Give me a break.

And anyone saying we should have bought out Richards and given Stepan more than 3.5 is off their rocker. You don't win a cup with Moore or Boyle as your third line center. If Richards has a season like last year, he will still be one of the best 3rd line centers in the NHL.

Stepan wants more than Duchene money wise and term and the cap is currently lower. Duchene is a better player and had a 67 point season under his belt.

Stepan should take the 2 year deal. 3.2-3.3 and prove that he can maintain this level of play over the coruse of a full season. He will be handsomly rewarded if he ups or continues his player for the 2 years.

And if he wants to miss out on money and playing, then he can wait for an offer sheet that may never come. This has nothin to do with cap management. This has to do with the way the Rangers have run their business by not giving in to players that have no leverage.

They give in to him, what happens if Kreider has a huge year this year. Or Fast and Lindberg have good years leading up to there bridge years. It sets a precedent that would potentially keep us from keeping other young players.

If stepan wants to sit at home and watch his team win games without him, then by all means do that. He'll give in soon enough and if he doesn't, then i couldn't care less.
Very good post. Nice to see some sense of fair play and common sense around here.

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09-18-2013, 11:53 AM
  #319
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If Toronto had a Lundqvist to mask the roster construction mistakes/blunders, those two teams would be a lot more similar than you think.
If anything were different, everything would be different. Doesn't mean much.

My point is, and I still stand by it, that another team being willing to sign a stupid contract doesn't mean NYR should also sign a stupid contract, especially when those teams are in worse places than NYR.

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09-18-2013, 11:58 AM
  #320
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If anything were different, everything would be different. Doesn't mean much.

My point is, and I still stand by it, that another team being willing to sign a stupid contract doesn't mean NYR should also sign a stupid contract, especially when those teams are in worse places than NYR.
No, I agree.

Besides, the Rangers only lead the pack in stupidity with UFA's anyway.

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09-18-2013, 11:59 AM
  #321
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Who is Stepan's agent and has that agent worked for other players who've held out? Just curious, really hoping this all doesn't go south and I'd like to see Stepan getting used to AV and the new guys.
Matt Oates from O2K Sports Management.

T.J. Oshie is another one of his clients and he seemed to work out a reasonable 1-year bridge deal with the Blues a few years back for $2.35M before getting a 5 year, roughly $21M deal.

Similar players, same agent, am I missing something here?

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09-18-2013, 12:00 PM
  #322
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Stepan needs to sign the damn deal. He's had two good seasons and one very good one (which was not even a full season so we have no idea how he'd do over 82 games).

He's also been terrible in the playoffs. His .38 PPG does not warrant much over what Sather is offering.
Exactly right. When the checking gets tighter, the game more physical and there is less space to operate, a small, soft player like Stepan is going to struggle in the playoffs more often than not.

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09-18-2013, 12:16 PM
  #323
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Matt Oates from O2K Sports Management.

T.J. Oshie is another one of his clients and he seemed to work out a reasonable 1-year bridge deal with the Blues a few years back for $2.35M before getting a 5 year, roughly $21M deal.

Similar players, same agent, am I missing something here?
Yes... Look at the markets both teams play in.

You've got your answer.

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09-18-2013, 12:25 PM
  #324
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In a vacuum, maybe not. In this context, where he has no leverage and is currently missing maybe the most important camp of his career - there is a reasonable deal. 2 years, 3-3.5 per. Sign it and play. Earn that next payday. Yeah, maybe his career will somehow end tragically before then. Maybe a lot of things. Most likely scenario by far, he'll play more and make way more.

Other players got more because their GMs are careless, or they see that player very differently. If I were on NYR, I wouldn't be crossing my fingers that our management started taking cues from the leafs.

I'm as happy as anybody that he looks like he took a big step last year. But, he hasn't established himself as that tier of player yet. He's not going to, and shouldn't, be paid like it.
I guess my Vacuum is different

Among forwards

Stepan
11-12 51 pts in 82 games ranked him 89th in production
12-13 44 pts in 48 games ranked him 21st

3.5M is not being offered according to the rumors

If he earns his next pay day, how is that good for the Rangers when they could just sign him cheaper now than they will have to pay later on?

Maybe the Rangers should take some cues from the Hawks, who seem to have no issue extending their players before a holdout?

Compare his ranking just based on production to those around him over the past two years and I think he has proven to be on the tier to most of those making far more than 3.5M per year. Factor in his two way game and there is no context other than the leverage angle that makes what's rumored to be offered correct.

Can't root for leverage I heard he's not a very good player nor does he help the Rangers contend in maybe the last year they can before 13 free agents need resigned of replaced, all before Stepan would need to be.

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09-18-2013, 12:25 PM
  #325
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Exactly right. When the checking gets tighter, the game more physical and there is less space to operate, a small, soft player like Stepan is going to struggle in the playoffs more often than not.
He's not that small. But I agree about less space to operate.

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