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Old
09-18-2013, 12:59 PM
  #101
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Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
Agree with everything up until the pass given to McIlrath.

I thought he was bad. Like, scary bad.
Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.

I didn't see anyone raving about him when he made a great diving play to break up a potential cross-crease scoring opportunity, or when he fought off two forwards in the corner and made a nice breakout pass to start a rush the other way. Yet there were countless posters seemingly waiting with "Omg, bust! Fowler! Tarasenko!" posts the minute he made a mistake. If he connects with some of those missed checks, we're raving about his physical game instead of bashing him for blowing them. If Syvret picks up his man and doesn't allow that puck to get to the front of the net on the 2nd goal, it's not as big of a mistake. Yet because of his draft status, his mistakes are compounded exponentially. He's still a 21 year old kid, coming off a major injury, who played his, what, 2nd NHL preseason game ever last night?

Call it a "pass" if you want, but I see a kid who looks light years better than he did when he was drafted, who simply tried to do too much to impress the powers that be. If you take away the context of where he is in his development, then yeah, "bad" might be apt. However, since I choose to evaluate him based on where he is in his development, I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt here.

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09-18-2013, 01:08 PM
  #102
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People on here calling for Kreider to AHL already are out of their minds.

I watched him for 3 years at BC. Massive improvement every year. Only knock is that he adds that extra effort for bigger games. Torts wanted that extra effort every game. He has tendency to disappear when games don't matter. Aside from that his talent is off the roof. His ability to be clutch in big games is uncanny. You want this guy on this team. Period.

First line? I think with his skill set he could be a first liner, but with Stepan and Nash. That line clicked at the end of the playoffs last year, Stepan and Kreider have the chemistry. Richards either gets his linemates or he doesn't. It takes Richards time to acclimate. This is why Stepan holding out extends past just missing him. Throws off line rotations. Otherwise, if Richards is going to be your first line center, move Kreider down a line. York played him on the 2nd line throughout his tenure here. Not because he didn't deserve to be on the first line, he understood who Kreider had chemistry with.

Enjoyed watching Lindberg and Fast last night. Pyatt is a black hole on the ice. He's useful occasionally along the boards or for a rare random snipe that no one is expecting. This team is going to have to be faster and more talented to make the impact that they want. Think Pyatt is waived or scratched. Same goes for Asham. Too slow, not fast enough for this offense.

Lindberg, in my opinion, is a lock to make the team. So much so that I think he forces Richards to a wing (given if Stepan signs).

I think Fast is better than Kristo, as of right now. Think his chemistry with Lindberg helps him make the team too.

As for Miller, I read he's practicing with the first team today. It's unfortunate that he got injured. Hurts his chance to make the team.

Opening day lines:

Kreider-Stepan-Nash
Zucc-Brassard-Richards
Poulloit-Lindberg-Fast
Moore-Boyle-Dorsett

When Cally and Hagelin come back:

Kreider-Stepan-Nash
Hagelin-Lindberg-Cally
Zucc-Brassard-Richards
Poullouit-Boyle-Dorsett

Very deep team this year. Fast, Kristo, Miller, Hrvik, Moore all could have been factors on last year's team and they'll all likely be in AHL this year.

Also, thoughts on McIlrath: Another half season in AHL and he should be ready. His pitching was untimely, he just needs to get smoother around the edges. His time will come. I'm not worried. It's just not now.

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09-18-2013, 01:09 PM
  #103
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The funniest assessment of his diving to break the play up with his stick was that his CHL level defensive positioning was the only reason he had to do that.

So what about when McDonagh does it?

McIlrath doesn't get a pass, but I'm not going to base my opinion of him solely on one preseason game, especially considering he hasn't played a full pro season yet and it was obvious he was a little nervous and trying to do too much.

Let's see him a few more times and then decide, but the fact of the matter is he'll probably head to HFD and get a ton of minutes which is probably the best course of action with him.

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09-18-2013, 01:10 PM
  #104
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Originally Posted by Trxjw View Post
Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.

I didn't see anyone raving about him when he made a great diving play to break up a potential cross-crease scoring opportunity, or when he fought off two forwards in the corner and made a nice breakout pass to start a rush the other way. Yet there were countless posters seemingly waiting with "Omg, bust! Fowler! Tarasenko!" posts the minute he made a mistake. If he connects with some of those missed checks, we're raving about his physical game instead of bashing him for blowing them. If Syvret picks up his man and doesn't allow that puck to get to the front of the net on the 2nd goal, it's not as big of a mistake. Yet because of his draft status, his mistakes are compounded exponentially. He's still a 21 year old kid, coming off a major injury, who played his, what, 2nd NHL preseason game ever last night?

Call it a "pass" if you want, but I see a kid who looks light years better than he did when he was drafted, who simply tried to do too much to impress the powers that be. If you take away the context of where he is in his development, then yeah, "bad" might be apt. However, since I choose to evaluate him based on where he is in his development, I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt here.
Of course the fact he was a top 10 pick over 3 years ago plays a role in it. If some bum off the street had a game like last night, I'd laugh it off because the organization wouldn't be heavily invested in him.

Regarding his development, he had issues with his knee so that buys him more time, but a top 10 pick making a mockery of a pre-season game 3+ years after he was drafted isn't exactly something to shrug off.

McIlrath made several mistakes last night, in different areas of the ice, covering nearly all the responsibilities a defenseman should have. Worst of all, he just looked overwhelmed after the terrible pinch on the first goal...overwhelmed by the speed, mostly. I thought he was, by far, the worst player on the ice for the Rangers the last 2 nights.

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09-18-2013, 01:12 PM
  #105
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Originally Posted by Barbara Underhill View Post
The funniest assessment of his diving to break the play up with his stick was that his CHL level defensive positioning was the only reason he had to do that.

So what about when McDonagh does it?

McIlrath doesn't get a pass, but I'm not going to base my opinion of him solely on one preseason game, especially considering he hasn't played a full pro season yet and it was obvious he was a little nervous and trying to do too much.

Let's see him a few more times and then decide, but the fact of the matter is he'll probably head to HFD and get a ton of minutes which is probably the best course of action with him.
I agree. Timing and positioning come with more experience and being more comfortable and confident in the decisions you make and when you make them... i.e ton of minutes in AHL to gain as much experience as he can. He's not almost there, but close enough where it's not inconceivable he'll be up if theres an injury midseason.

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09-18-2013, 01:14 PM
  #106
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Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
Of course the fact he was a top 10 pick over 3 years ago plays a role in it. If some bum off the street had a game like last night, I'd laugh it off because the organization wouldn't be heavily invested in him.

Regarding his development, he had issues with his knee so that buys him more time, but a top 10 pick making a mockery of a pre-season game 3+ years after he was drafted isn't exactly something to shrug off.

McIlrath made several mistakes last night, in different areas of the ice, covering nearly all the responsibilities a defenseman should have. Worst of all, he just looked overwhelmed after the terrible pinch on the first goal...overwhelmed by the speed, mostly. I thought he was, by far, the worst player on the ice for the Rangers the last 2 nights.
Really? Or are you possibly being a bit dramatic? Because Shawn O'Donnell can't even skate.

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09-18-2013, 01:14 PM
  #107
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Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
Of course the fact he was a top 10 pick over 3 years ago plays a role in it. If some bum off the street had a game like last night, I'd laugh it off because the organization wouldn't be heavily invested in him.

Regarding his development, he had issues with his knee so that buys him more time, but a top 10 pick making a mockery of a pre-season game 3+ years after he was drafted isn't exactly something to shrug off.

McIlrath made several mistakes last night, in different areas of the ice, covering nearly all the responsibilities a defenseman should have. Worst of all, he just looked overwhelmed after the terrible pinch on the first goal...overwhelmed by the speed, mostly. I thought he was, by far, the worst player on the ice for the Rangers the last 2 nights.
A little harsh. He had good and bad. Plenty of players that played only showed bad.

Theres a reason he wasn't sent down to AHL after last night. You're getting extreme.

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09-18-2013, 01:15 PM
  #108
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People on here calling for Kreider to AHL already are out of their minds.

I watched him for 3 years at BC. Massive improvement every year. Only knock is that he adds that extra effort for bigger games. Torts wanted that extra effort every game. He has tendency to disappear when games don't matter. Aside from that his talent is off the roof. His ability to be clutch in big games is uncanny. You want this guy on this team. Period.

First line? I think with his skill set he could be a first liner, but with Stepan and Nash. That line clicked at the end of the playoffs last year, Stepan and Kreider have the chemistry. Richards either gets his linemates or he doesn't. It takes Richards time to acclimate. This is why Stepan holding out extends past just missing him. Throws off line rotations. Otherwise, if Richards is going to be your first line center, move Kreider down a line. York played him on the 2nd line throughout his tenure here. Not because he didn't deserve to be on the first line, he understood who Kreider had chemistry with.

Enjoyed watching Lindberg and Fast last night. Pyatt is a black hole on the ice. He's useful occasionally along the boards or for a rare random snipe that no one is expecting. This team is going to have to be faster and more talented to make the impact that they want. Think Pyatt is waived or scratched. Same goes for Asham. Too slow, not fast enough for this offense.

Lindberg, in my opinion, is a lock to make the team. So much so that I think he forces Richards to a wing (given if Stepan signs).

I think Fast is better than Kristo, as of right now. Think his chemistry with Lindberg helps him make the team too.

As for Miller, I read he's practicing with the first team today. It's unfortunate that he got injured. Hurts his chance to make the team.

Opening day lines:

Kreider-Stepan-Nash
Zucc-Brassard-Richards
Poulloit-Lindberg-Fast
Moore-Boyle-Dorsett

When Cally and Hagelin come back:

Kreider-Stepan-Nash
Hagelin-Lindberg-Cally
Zucc-Brassard-Richards
Poullouit-Boyle-Dorsett

Very deep team this year. Fast, Kristo, Miller, Hrvik, Moore all could have been factors on last year's team and they'll all likely be in AHL this year.

Also, thoughts on McIlrath: Another half season in AHL and he should be ready. His pitching was untimely, he just needs to get smoother around the edges. His time will come. I'm not worried. It's just not now.
No way Dom Moore goes to Wolfpack. He would get claimed... no reason to break up Brassard Pouliot Zucc that shown chemistry in camp and preseason..

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09-18-2013, 01:19 PM
  #109
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No way Dom Moore goes to Wolfpack. He would get claimed... no reason to break up Brassard Pouliot Zucc that shown chemistry in camp and preseason..
Dom would be a healthy scratch. Fast would go back to AHL.

And that line will undoubtedly be broken up when Stepan resigns. Our top center playing with 2 rookies is very unlikely. AV puts players where they can succeed. Pouloit is an energy player trying to make an impact. He's fast, unafraid to go to the net. He'll fit great with Lindberg and Fast.

Richards will likely move down a line. Limit defensive responsibility on him, move him to the wing.

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09-18-2013, 01:23 PM
  #110
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Between watching this game and the game on Monday, you can really tell who the naturally creative players are. The PP last night was infinitely better than the Monday night crew who was trying to force passes and was too slow to make decisions. Though I think Girardi has proven that he just doesn't have the mobility to be a staple on the PP. I think Staal/McDonagh, Del Zotto, Moore and Stralman should be the blue liners who get consideration for PP duty over Danny G..
I only caught a little of the game last night and saw part of one PP...it was refreshing to see McD at one point with his stick already wound up for a shot...when was the last time we've seen that.

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09-18-2013, 01:25 PM
  #111
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Between watching this game and the game on Monday, you can really tell who the naturally creative players are. The PP last night was infinitely better than the Monday night crew who was trying to force passes and was too slow to make decisions. Though I think Girardi has proven that he just doesn't have the mobility to be a staple on the PP. I think Staal/McDonagh, Del Zotto, Moore and Stralman should be the blue liners who get consideration for PP duty over Danny G.

Nice to see some natural chemistry forming between Zucc, Brassard and Pouliot. I hope AV keeps that group together to start the year. They compliment each other quite well. I thought Kreider would be fit there over Pouliot, but I don't see any reason to mess with it right now.

I thought Stralman looked really good, and I was very impressed with Conor Allen. I think the Rangers may have found a really solid player in this kid. Great mobility, smart positioning, good puck movement. I'd like to see him engage his body a bit more. He doesn't need to run people over, but there were a few times where he could have shrugged a guy off the puck but instead tried to use his stick.

Fast looked incredibly slick and elusive. Great on the PP with the open ice, but was knocked off the puck a few times. Need to bulk him up a bit. Lindberg was solid, but not as noticeable as I'd hoped.

Talbot again looked very solid, but so did Marty. My guess is that Marty rides out the year as the backup and Talbot takes over the job next fall.

Yogan and Kantor looked hungry. Liked what I saw from both of them, but their decisions with the puck need to be quicker.

Haley is a clear upgrade over Asham, IMO. Way faster, and he hits harder. Little loose with the discipline, but as I've always said, a lineup can benefit from a bit of crazy.

Dorsett looked good. Like his speed and energy.

Syvret is smooth with the puck in the offensive zone, but is a trainwreck in his own end. Was just as much at fault for that 2nd goal as McIlrath was.

McIlrath was average. I think he made some really solid, simple plays, but he was clearly trying so hard to impress with his physical game that he made some bad mistakes. His skating looked good, but he tried to force some passes that just weren't there. Clearly needs more time, but he looks light years better than he did at his first camp.

All in all, a pretty solid showing from that group.
To steal a line from My Cousin Vinny...

That is a lucid, intelligent, well thought-out post...however I'm sure HF will Object.

Great points and recap for thiose of us who couldn't watch the entire game.

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09-18-2013, 01:26 PM
  #112
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Really? Or are you possibly being a bit dramatic? Because Shawn O'Donnell can't even skate.
O'Donnell wasn't noticeable at all, which is better than McIlrath's comedy of errors.

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09-18-2013, 01:28 PM
  #113
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O'Donnell wasn't noticeable at all, which is better than McIlrath's comedy of errors.
Well at least you just proved why there is absolutely no reason to argue with you. Unsound logic.

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09-18-2013, 01:32 PM
  #114
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Well at least you just proved why there is absolutely no reason to argue with you. Unsound logic.
McIlrath handed the Flyers 2 goals on a silver platter last night. It was legitimately scary how poorly he played, regardless of it he was a top 10 pick or not.

Ill be damned if Im going to be lectured on logic by someone like you, who suggested that McIlrath is still with the team because of his play, and not because the team has a lot invested in its top 10 pick.

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09-18-2013, 01:36 PM
  #115
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Originally Posted by Barbara Underhill View Post
The funniest assessment of his diving to break the play up with his stick was that his CHL level defensive positioning was the only reason he had to do that.

So what about when McDonagh does it?
I make that point frequently in Staal-McDonagh debates.

I don't care a lick about McIlrath's draft position. That's a sunk cost at this point. I want him to succeed, and I like his skillset, but I can't agree with any assessment of his performance last night that doesn't end on bad. He looked like he was always half a step behind the play.

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09-18-2013, 01:38 PM
  #116
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Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
McIlrath handed the Flyers 2 goals on a silver platter last night. It was legitimately scary how poorly he played, regardless of it he was a top 10 pick or not.

Ill be damned if Im going to be lectured on logic by someone like you, who suggested that McIlrath is still with the team because of his play, and not because the team has a lot invested in its top 10 pick.
He wasn't going to be cut based on one game I can assure you that, it wasn't nearly as OMGTERRIBAD as you want to suggest.

Obviously O'Donnell was noticable, if quite a few of us noticed his inability to skate. You can make your player assessments after they have played one preseason game if you want, but be careful because you might end up being wrong more often than not.

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I make that point frequently in Staal-McDonagh debates.

I don't care a lick about McIlrath's draft position. That's a sunk cost at this point. I want him to succeed, and I like his skillset, but I can't agree with any assessment of his performance last night that doesn't end on bad. He looked like he was always half a step behind the play.
I don't think anyone is arguing that he had a good game, simply that he was up and down. Which is understandable and the reason you can't make a decision on him based on that game. If he plays the same way next game then yes, easy decision to send him down. If he shows marked improvement then give him a longer look. It's more assessing him to see what he can do in 4-5 months rather than opening day, because it's highly unlikely he'll beat any of our current top six for a spot.

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09-18-2013, 01:41 PM
  #117
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Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
McIlrath handed the Flyers 2 goals on a silver platter last night. It was legitimately scary how poorly he played, regardless of it he was a top 10 pick or not.

Ill be damned if Im going to be lectured on logic by someone like you, who suggested that McIlrath is still with the team because of his play, and not because the team has a lot invested in its top 10 pick.
No. You're putting words in my mouth I never said. Also, his play does warrant him to remain on the team... for now. Again, he showed good and he showed bad. Is it difficult to be moderate in your assessments? Apparently so.

Read the other posts I wrote including McIlrath on this very same thread page. Both say he is not ready to make the team yet. My opinion is that it'll take half a season. Maybe it takes longer, maybe it takes shorter, maybe it never happens. It's up to how he develops. But, with the strides he's made since he was drafted, it's conceivable that he'll be ready to contribute at some point this year.

His mistakes weren't "scary bad". They're growing pains. These are pre-season games. You throw players out there in certain circumstances and see how they react. For Dylan, he's been talking about how much he wants to make this team and impress the coaches. Is it that hard to believe that he was a) nervous and b) putting himself under a lot of pressure to not only succeed but stand out? There are 6 clear cut starting defensemen already on this team. He's not making the team unless he outshines a veteran. He took risks, ones i'm sure he regrets. I'd rather him take these risks now and see that getting sent down isn't the end of the world rather than play with a level head, not make the team, then think he has to make an impression on the coaches during a playoff run and make boneheaded mistakes.

You put so much emphasis on what a top 10 pick should play like after 3 years of development. Players develop at a different rate. I'm supposed to take logic lessons from someone who believes that 3 years of development should create a superstar? There's this character trait called patience. Learn to use it.

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09-18-2013, 01:44 PM
  #118
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I don't think anyone is arguing that he had a good game, simply that he was up and down. Which is understandable and the reason you can't make a decision on him based on that game. If he plays the same way next game then yes, easy decision to send him down. If he shows marked improvement then give him a longer look. It's more assessing him to see what he can do in 4-5 months rather than opening day, because it's highly unlikely he'll beat any of our current top six for a spot.
I'm definitely a big supporter of sample size. I'm glad that AV didn't make a snap decision and send him down, but in evaluating his performance in last nights game solely, I'm in the OMGTERRIBAD crowd.

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09-18-2013, 01:44 PM
  #119
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He wasn't going to be cut based on one game I can assure you that, it wasn't nearly as OMGTERRIBAD as you want to suggest.

Obviously O'Donnell was noticable, if quite a few of us noticed his inability to skate. You can make your player assessments after they have played one preseason game if you want, but be careful because you might end up being wrong more often than not.
While we are on the subject of making suggestions, heres one for you - admit when a player stinks like McIlrath did last night. I obviously want him to eventually succeed, but he stunk the joint up last night. Theres really nothing wrong about that -- what I think is wrong is glossing it over because hes a top prospect on this team, or because you're a homer, or whatever.

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09-18-2013, 01:45 PM
  #120
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It's cool for the preseason, but could we please not put the results in the title of the post-game threads once the season starts?
Good idea. Although I'm sure you'll know the outcome by the thread titles after a game.

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09-18-2013, 01:45 PM
  #121
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Here's a fun game Bard.

Chris Kreider's playoffs stats last two seasons: 26 GP, 6 G, 3A

Player A over the same period: 26 GP, 6 G, 5 A

Guess who?
Couple of thoughts;

Not all goals are created equal; OT winners are different.
One guy was basically a rookie while the other was teacher's pet. Different level of latitude on the ice.
Ice time discrepacy; don't know the answer but it could be meaningful.
Finally, the other has played above his normal output in the POs which is a good thing.

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09-18-2013, 01:46 PM
  #122
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I make that point frequently in Staal-McDonagh debates.

I don't care a lick about McIlrath's draft position. That's a sunk cost at this point. I want him to succeed, and I like his skillset, but I can't agree with any assessment of his performance last night that doesn't end on bad. He looked like he was always half a step behind the play.
Poor positioning. Needs more confidence in decisions too. Seemed like his reactions were half a second behind too. Can't second guess your decisions at this level. Coaches need to tell him that. That split second is a big difference.

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09-18-2013, 01:55 PM
  #123
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Finally, the other has played above his normal output in the POs which is a good thing.
Glossing over the rest that we're argued about ad nauseum:

Kreider gets the leg up in your book because his regular season performance has been putrid?


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09-18-2013, 02:00 PM
  #124
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Some players just cannot be debated with any semblance of objectivity on HFNYR. However, the debate regarding these players is like a boon of objectivity compared to the Kreider debates.

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09-18-2013, 02:07 PM
  #125
Rust Heisenberg
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Quote:
Originally Posted by -31- View Post
Glossing over the rest that we're argued about ad nauseum:

Kreider gets the leg up in your book because his regular season performance has been putrid?

Who is player A you referred to earlier?

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