HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Eastern Conference > Atlantic Division > Montreal Canadiens
Notices

Crosby proclaims Price the best goalie in the league.

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
09-18-2013, 07:25 PM
  #201
Agnostic
11 Stanley Cups
 
Agnostic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Country: Canada
Posts: 8,019
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by WeThreeKings View Post
Quantity of shots =/= dangerous shots.

You can't take 4 goals out of 10 shots and say that the metric indicates the goalie was poor.
If all 10 shots were break-aways, that would be along the league average for shootouts. So that would be an average performance.

Don't try and use shot metrics as a measure of a goaltenders performance.

Price lost us game 1 by letting in an awful Silfverberg goal in the 3rd period.
Every other game he was as good as he needed to be. We would have won that series without injuries, Therrien knowing how to employ systems that worked, and a team identity that understood you need to go to the net for the juicy rebounds that Anderson let out on EVERY SHOT.

You want to know why Anderson faces more shots than Price even though Ottawa's defensive system and team defense is better (why Anderson had such great stats).. Because A) his rebound control is terrible and B) Ottawa took away the center of the ice and teams shot from the perimeter a lot more frequently to create second chance opportunities and because they couldn't get passes through the cross seams.

Let's stop this play-off series fallacy that Price some how cost us the series and that it was his goaltending that was at fault. If that was the case, then Budaj coming in would not have peformed remarkably worse against the same team.
Your entire post is so off base as to be ridiculous. The GM of this team has noted Price's poor performance on numerous occasions, it's documented and one of the big stories of last year's team. Stop denying this.

Poor Budaj , came into a game cold in overtime, after Price blew the game, and had his defenseman direct the puck into the net on the first shot. If you were expecting an average backup to clean up Price's mess at that point I have news for you he's not that good. That's another product of having Price in the net, having a good challenging backup was long ago deemed not an option.

Agnostic is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-18-2013, 07:37 PM
  #202
Lafleurs Guy
Registered User
 
Lafleurs Guy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 20,585
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by habsfanatics View Post
I love the absurdity of this fan base. They'll say or do anything to defend each and every player. Even trying to create the false idea that our team was terrible defensively, despite every single metric suggesting otherwise.

We allowed the fifth fewest shots against and had one of the best shot differentials in the league. We were in no way poor defensively. The team played great for the majority of the season, Price's play hit rock bottom, his last 10 games was some of the poorest goaltending I've seen from him.

The team was fine, Price flat out stunk for a 1/4 of the season. I dunno why some feel the need to perpetuate this myth that the team stinks and price is our only hope. It's a load of hogwash, if anything, Price has held the team back.
The team wasn't fine once Emelin went down. The D is thin even with him in the lineup. He's the only real fear factor we have back there and without him we haven't got a whole lot back there. And it's not like Emelin is all that great to begin with. But at least players had some respect in our end of the rink when he was on the ice.

Moreover, our PK sucked and I don't see that changing now.

Lafleurs Guy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-18-2013, 07:56 PM
  #203
Roulin
Registered User
 
Roulin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Montreal
Posts: 4,235
vCash: 500
I'm skeptical about the argument that Price's performance has been crippled by Hab defencemen. I think there are very few teams (Phoenix) whose systems can have a positive impact on goalies, but I don't see much of a negative effect by teams with bad D - I think bad D mostly manifests itself in the number of shots against. Columbus and Toronto were bad in their own ends last season, but Bobrovsky and Reimer did great and fine respectively. Washington has been leaky, but Holtby has been good.

Roulin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-18-2013, 08:24 PM
  #204
Roulin
Registered User
 
Roulin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Montreal
Posts: 4,235
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
The team wasn't fine once Emelin went down. The D is thin even with him in the lineup. He's the only real fear factor we have back there and without him we haven't got a whole lot back there. And it's not like Emelin is all that great to begin with. But at least players had some respect in our end of the rink when he was on the ice.

Moreover, our PK sucked and I don't see that changing now.
Taking the PK out of the equation, here are the goalies who played at least 20 games last season, ES only:

Player Sv%
Craig Anderson 0.943
Sergei Bobrovsky 0.941
Tomas Vokoun 0.940
Tuukka Rask 0.938
Henrik Lundqvist 0.937
Jimmy Howard 0.937
Jonas Hiller 0.936
Corey Crawford 0.934
Braden Holtby 0.931
Cory Schneider 0.931
Antti Niemi 0.930
Ryan Miller 0.928
Pekka Rinne 0.927
Marc-Andre Fleury0.927
Ben Bishop 0.927
Ray Emery 0.927
Viktor Fasth 0.926
Kari Lehtonen 0.924
Mike Smith 0.924
James Reimer 0.924
Devan Dubnyk 0.922
Carey Price 0.920
Roberto Luongo 0.920
Ben Scrivens 0.920
Martin Brodeur 0.919
Brian Elliott 0.917
Evgeni Nabokov 0.916
Ondrej Pavelec 0.914
Niklas Backstrom 0.914
Jacob Markstrom 0.912
Semyon Varlamov0.911
Steve Mason 0.911
Jonathan Quick 0.910
Ilya Bryzgalov 0.907

Roulin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-18-2013, 08:41 PM
  #205
Andy
Registered User
 
Andy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Montreal
Country: Canada
Posts: 17,951
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roulin View Post
Taking the PK out of the equation, here are the goalies who played at least 20 games last season, ES only:

Player Sv%
Craig Anderson 0.943
Sergei Bobrovsky 0.941
Tomas Vokoun 0.940
Tuukka Rask 0.938
Henrik Lundqvist 0.937
Jimmy Howard 0.937
Jonas Hiller 0.936
Corey Crawford 0.934
Braden Holtby 0.931
Cory Schneider 0.931
Antti Niemi 0.930
Ryan Miller 0.928
Pekka Rinne 0.927
Marc-Andre Fleury0.927
Ben Bishop 0.927
Ray Emery 0.927
Viktor Fasth 0.926
Kari Lehtonen 0.924
Mike Smith 0.924
James Reimer 0.924
Devan Dubnyk 0.922
Carey Price 0.920
Roberto Luongo 0.920
Ben Scrivens 0.920
Martin Brodeur 0.919
Brian Elliott 0.917
Evgeni Nabokov 0.916
Ondrej Pavelec 0.914
Niklas Backstrom 0.914
Jacob Markstrom 0.912
Semyon Varlamov0.911
Steve Mason 0.911
Jonathan Quick 0.910
Ilya Bryzgalov 0.907
So he jumps from 35th in SV% to 20th just with the removal of PK...interesting.

He did slump at the end of the season, there is no question about that, PK or not. It's interesting to see how much the PK brought his stats down in the end, in addition to the post-Emelin slump.

Andy is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
09-18-2013, 11:11 PM
  #206
Mrb1p
Registered User
 
Mrb1p's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Citizen of the world
Country: Canada
Posts: 15,109
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roulin View Post
I'm skeptical about the argument that Price's performance has been crippled by Hab defencemen. I think there are very few teams (Phoenix) whose systems can have a positive impact on goalies, but I don't see much of a negative effect by teams with bad D - I think bad D mostly manifests itself in the number of shots against. Columbus and Toronto were bad in their own ends last season, but Bobrovsky and Reimer did great and fine respectively. Washington has been leaky, but Holtby has been good.
If you think Colombus were bad in their own end you are clearly missing something. They were one of the strongest defensive team in the league, the problem is that they cannot score.

And have Reimer and Holtby been better than Price ?

Mrb1p is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-19-2013, 05:38 AM
  #207
Whitesnake
Habs of steel
 
Whitesnake's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Lorraine, QC
Country: Canada
Posts: 47,371
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mrb1p View Post
If you think Colombus were bad in their own end you are clearly missing something. They were one of the strongest defensive team in the league, the problem is that they cannot score.

And have Reimer and Holtby been better than Price ?
As great a D you can have, if you don't have offensive support, you STILL need to be a great goalie.

Whitesnake is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-19-2013, 09:08 AM
  #208
Habz2006
Registered User
 
Habz2006's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 89
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mrb1p View Post
If you think Colombus were bad in their own end you are clearly missing something. They were one of the strongest defensive team in the league, the problem is that they cannot score.

And have Reimer and Holtby been better than Price ?
Brandon Holtby
2013 Season Save % - 0.920
2013 Playoff Save % - 0.922

James Reimer -
2013 Season Save % - 0.924
2013 Playoff Save % - 0.923

Carey Price -
2013 Season Save % - 0.905
2013 Playoff Save % - 0.894

Does that answer your question ???

Habz2006 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-19-2013, 09:18 AM
  #209
Habs
Registered User
 
Habs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Country: Canada
Posts: 9,258
vCash: 500
I'm a Price fanboy, but Sid is wrong on this.

Habs is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-19-2013, 09:22 AM
  #210
Mrb1p
Registered User
 
Mrb1p's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Citizen of the world
Country: Canada
Posts: 15,109
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Habz2006 View Post
Brandon Holtby
2013 Season Save % - 0.920
2013 Playoff Save % - 0.922

James Reimer -
2013 Season Save % - 0.924
2013 Playoff Save % - 0.923

Carey Price -
2013 Season Save % - 0.905
2013 Playoff Save % - 0.894

Does that answer your question ???

Not at all

If the only real argument you can come up with is this, I have nothing to debate with you

Mrb1p is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-19-2013, 09:24 AM
  #211
Mrb1p
Registered User
 
Mrb1p's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Citizen of the world
Country: Canada
Posts: 15,109
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Whitesnake View Post
As great a D you can have, if you don't have offensive support, you STILL need to be a great goalie.
I really don't see the GAA/save % relation to goal scored by your own team. I might have missed something here.

Mrb1p is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-19-2013, 09:24 AM
  #212
KnightofBoston
MVP
 
KnightofBoston's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Amherst, Ma
Country: United States
Posts: 12,467
vCash: 500
I've always liked price so I don't have an issue with this,other than I think there really is no best goalie, there's just a handful of them that on any given night can shut you down

KnightofBoston is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-19-2013, 10:13 AM
  #213
Mrb1p
Registered User
 
Mrb1p's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Citizen of the world
Country: Canada
Posts: 15,109
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by KnightofBoston View Post
I've always liked price so I don't have an issue with this,other than I think there really is no best goalie, there's just a handful of them that on any given night can shut you down
This goes in the same way that a good team will make the best goalie. A good defensive scheme and a good defensively aware squad will allow a goalie to thrive.

Watch all the vezina winners over the past, they all had strong defenses. Colombus is a prime example of this, full of two-way players.

Mrb1p is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-19-2013, 10:27 AM
  #214
Habz2006
Registered User
 
Habz2006's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 89
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mrb1p View Post
Not at all

If the only real argument you can come up with is this, I have nothing to debate with you
Well you were sarcastically asking if Reimer and/or Holtby outplayed Price and if you can't see through those stats that they did ... then you might want to switch sports. Might I also mention that Reimer had to beat a MUCH better Boston team than Price had to face with Ottawa.

Habz2006 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-19-2013, 10:31 AM
  #215
Habz2006
Registered User
 
Habz2006's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 89
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mrb1p View Post
This goes in the same way that a good team will make the best goalie. A good defensive scheme and a good defensively aware squad will allow a goalie to thrive.

Watch all the vezina winners over the past, they all had strong defenses. Colombus is a prime example of this, full of two-way players.
Well then what you are essentially saying is that the Canadiens should build a great 2 way defensive oriented team like columbus did .... AND if they do that, they can afford to pretty much throw any goalie in nets and they will win the vezina ??? How about this .. why don't we do that ... trade Price and but Mayer in nets and maybe we will groom a Vezina winner ?? haha what a joke

Habz2006 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-19-2013, 10:45 AM
  #216
Ohashi_Jouzu
Registered User
 
Ohashi_Jouzu's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Halifax
Country: Japan
Posts: 21,598
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mrb1p View Post
Watch all the vezina winners over the past, they all had strong defenses.
I think you'll also find, though, that they had one of the highest SV% at even strength, and were among their teams' best penalty killers (as evidenced by league-wide ranking of PK SV%). Now, it can always be turned around to say that good defenses help those numbers, but to be the "best goalie", you have to measurably be one of the guys driving success in those situations. That wasn't Price last year. Not even close. Maybe this year.

Ohashi_Jouzu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-19-2013, 11:15 AM
  #217
Whitesnake
Habs of steel
 
Whitesnake's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Lorraine, QC
Country: Canada
Posts: 47,371
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mrb1p View Post
I really don't see the GAA/save % relation to goal scored by your own team. I might have missed something here.
Well you do miss that in regards to the subject of this thread, Crosby didn't proclaimed Price as the best goalie based on GAA and Save%...if so, he can't read. So there are other factors to have in mind here when you try to assess who is a good goalie and who isn't.

Whitesnake is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-19-2013, 11:20 AM
  #218
WeThreeKings
Registered User
 
WeThreeKings's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Halifax
Country: Canada
Posts: 32,696
vCash: 500
Send a message via MSN to WeThreeKings
Quote:
Originally Posted by Habz2006 View Post
Well you were sarcastically asking if Reimer and/or Holtby outplayed Price and if you can't see through those stats that they did ... then you might want to switch sports. Might I also mention that Reimer had to beat a MUCH better Boston team than Price had to face with Ottawa.
Price put up a .923% in a 7 game series against the Boston Bruins team that won the cup.
Care to cherry pick more stats?

WeThreeKings is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-19-2013, 11:22 AM
  #219
Whitesnake
Habs of steel
 
Whitesnake's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Lorraine, QC
Country: Canada
Posts: 47,371
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mrb1p View Post
This goes in the same way that a good team will make the best goalie. A good defensive scheme and a good defensively aware squad will allow a goalie to thrive.

Watch all the vezina winners over the past, they all had strong defenses. Colombus is a prime example of this, full of two-way players.
Strange how things change. Not that long ago we had 2 good goalies, with the same system, one was capable of doing more than the other. Then we traded that small goalie and when he won the Jennings, we were told that it was solely because of the system....yet, now he sucks with the same team....did they change the system?

Jacques Martin always had a great system....even with Ottawa. But then he had Patrick Lalime in net...How great did that go? Yes, great systems helps a goalie but a great goalie helps a system too....It goes together.

Whitesnake is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-19-2013, 11:23 AM
  #220
HiggsBozon
LOLZ, keep hating
 
HiggsBozon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Country: Canada
Posts: 3,036
vCash: 500
*sigh*

The last thing Price needs before this season is more exposure...

HiggsBozon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-19-2013, 11:25 AM
  #221
Habz2006
Registered User
 
Habz2006's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 89
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by WeThreeKings View Post
Price put up a .923% in a 7 game series against the Boston Bruins team that won the cup.
Care to cherry pick more stats?
You are going to bring up something he accomplished 3 years ago as an argument ? He hasn't won a playoff series since 2007-2008.

On a side note .... since everyone is saying the defence leaves him out to dry ... MTL was ranked 5th in the league in shots allowed per game last year.

The bottom line is that Carey Price is not an elite goalie and therefore the argument that he is the best in the league is a real farce. I don't even consider Price in the top 5 in the league.

Habz2006 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-19-2013, 11:26 AM
  #222
Ohashi_Jouzu
Registered User
 
Ohashi_Jouzu's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Halifax
Country: Japan
Posts: 21,598
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by HiggsBozon View Post
*sigh*

The last thing Price needs before this season is more exposure...
I think the last thing Price needs is the projecting of so many people's personal insecurities onto him.

Ohashi_Jouzu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-19-2013, 11:30 AM
  #223
WeThreeKings
Registered User
 
WeThreeKings's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Halifax
Country: Canada
Posts: 32,696
vCash: 500
Send a message via MSN to WeThreeKings
Quote:
Originally Posted by Habz2006 View Post
You are going to bring up something he accomplished 3 years ago as an argument ? He hasn't won a playoff series since 2007-2008.

On a side note .... since everyone is saying the defence leaves him out to dry ... MTL was ranked 5th in the league in shots allowed per game last year.

The bottom line is that Carey Price is not an elite goalie and therefore the argument that he is the best in the league is a real farce. I don't even consider Price in the top 5 in the league.
Shots allowed does not indicate quality of shots.

My god, people really need to be taught statistics in high school so this false belief in them can go to hell.

100% of people who drink water and breathe air die.
STOP BREATHING and DRINKING WATER now!!!

If the team you are playing gives you free reign to pass the puck through the slot and take shots/redirections from there.. are you going to go over the blueline, rip a shot from the perimeter and hope to regain possession from a rebound? Or will you take the puck in, set up, and score on a prime chance because the defensive system is horrible?

Martins defensive system was way better at limiting scoring chances than Therrien's, yet the shots against in Martin's system was way higher than Therrien's regime. You have to take a nugget of information, especially statistical information, then analyze it and use logic to determine why these discrepancies exist.

Teams will gladly take one shot in a prime scoring chance vs. 3-4 shots from the perimeter on every offensive zone possession.

WeThreeKings is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-19-2013, 12:09 PM
  #224
Habz2006
Registered User
 
Habz2006's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 89
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by WeThreeKings View Post
Shots allowed does not indicate quality of shots.

My god, people really need to be taught statistics in high school so this false belief in them can go to hell.

100% of people who drink water and breathe air die.
STOP BREATHING and DRINKING WATER now!!!

If the team you are playing gives you free reign to pass the puck through the slot and take shots/redirections from there.. are you going to go over the blueline, rip a shot from the perimeter and hope to regain possession from a rebound? Or will you take the puck in, set up, and score on a prime chance because the defensive system is horrible?

Martins defensive system was way better at limiting scoring chances than Therrien's, yet the shots against in Martin's system was way higher than Therrien's regime. You have to take a nugget of information, especially statistical information, then analyze it and use logic to determine why these discrepancies exist.

Teams will gladly take one shot in a prime scoring chance vs. 3-4 shots from the perimeter on every offensive zone possession.
2007-2008 !!!!! Last playoff series win (and his only 1). !!!!!

Habz2006 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-19-2013, 01:05 PM
  #225
chosen
Registered User
 
chosen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 5,616
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Whitesnake View Post
You mean the Rangers defense that sees this no-good overrated punk be top 2 that is Ryan McDonagh? And I keep hearing how our defense is just so great. That we're top 5 on this and top 5 on that. No, it really seems that we're underrating our D. And is this also the Rangers defense without Staal we're talking about?

And then...shouldn't we visit the rest of the league and excuse most of the teams' goalies because of how poor their team are? Does Cam Ward looked worst because of his D? Why do we keep bashing the Leafs goalies based on how pathetic their D are? If it works for Price...should it work for others?
Rangers fan for 50 years and to me McDonagh is already in their top 5 D over that period. Park, Leetch, Beck, Zubov.

Nobody beats McDonagh one on one and at even strength he was top 5 in points for D last year.

chosen is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 11:53 PM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2014 All Rights Reserved.