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HOH Top 60 Centers of All-Time: Round 1 Preliminary Discussion Thread

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Old
09-19-2013, 06:24 PM
  #551
seventieslord
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dennis Bonvie View Post
I had both McGee and Fredrickson as marginal. What makes Fredrickson clearly better?
A career of being a very strong offensive performer compared to many other players who will make this list.

Quote:
Originally Posted by VanIslander View Post
McGee was the Lindros of his time.
Lindros played 14 seasons, was the MVP of the best league in the world post-european invasion and was a top-5 player for 5 years. McGee played 4 years, total. Considering Lindros was also a devastating physical force (the most devastating of his era, perhaps), I don't see any amount of adjustment or projection that could possibly make McGee the Lindros of his era.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MadArcand
Seems that McGee is getting significantly underrated. Can't believe he couldn't make 70s list. That 'too short career' is about as short as Crosby's...
seriously? Crosby's played 8 seasons now and has been the consensus #1/2 player in the game for 7 of those seasons. McGee played as many regular season and stanley cup games in his career as Crosby played in 2010-11.

McGee has a scoring title from the FAHL which is good; the problem with that is that the rest of the best players were in the CAHL. He actually tied Jack Marshall (not really a dominant superstar type player) and was just 2 points ahead of Westwick (same)

In his seasons in the ECAHA, he placed 2nd (68% of 1st), 7th (43% of 1st, but was on pace for 2nd and 87%), and 3rd (82% of 1st).

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Old
09-19-2013, 06:26 PM
  #552
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VanIslander View Post
He played in 11 Stanley Cup challenges and was the best player clearly at the highest level of competition, averaging three goals a a game over it all.
Almost none of his stanley cup games were at the "highest level of competition"; they were against weak challengers.

Quote:
Only career length keeps him apart from the Taylor and Nighbor level of all-time appreciation.
And also, being anywhere near as good as Taylor offensively or Nighbor defensively.

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Old
09-19-2013, 06:30 PM
  #553
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VanIslander View Post
He was the fullback for Ottawa's football team. In that era, he was average size, but tough and could play through the toughest of tackles and checks.

Read Brian MacFarlane's It Happened in Hockey write-up on him, including plenty of quotes from eyewitnesses as to his ability to play through checks (google 'frank mcgee tough' ).

He played in 11 Stanley Cup challenges and was the best player clearly at the highest level of competition, averaging three goals a a game over it all.

Only career length keeps him apart from the Taylor and Nighbor level of all-time appreciation.
Thanks for the info.

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09-19-2013, 06:58 PM
  #554
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
seriously? Crosby's played 8 seasons now
4 seasons in McGee's era are at least on par with 6 seasons today, which is about as much as Crosby has really played (saying he played 8 seasons when one of them was almost complete loss and three others have been half-seasons (lockout included) is disingenuous).

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09-19-2013, 09:40 PM
  #555
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MadArcand View Post
4 seasons in McGee's era are at least on par with 6 seasons today, which is about as much as Crosby has really played (saying he played 8 seasons when one of them was almost complete loss and three others have been half-seasons (lockout included) is disingenuous).
How exactly is 4 seasons in any era comparable to 6 seasons today?

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09-19-2013, 10:15 PM
  #556
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Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
How exactly is 4 seasons in any era comparable to 6 seasons today?
I'm done eras, careers tended to be shorter. It's a valid point.

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Old
09-20-2013, 12:05 AM
  #557
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
I'm done eras, careers tended to be shorter. It's a valid point.
Haha, nice autocorrect.

But as you say, it is a valid point. Back then, a 6-7 year career was a pretty good length. The game was too violent and if players were paid at all, it was very little. Mcgee's career was still short, even in that era, but not absurdly so.


He's on my list because I think he's worth discussing in detail in round 2, but right now, I don't think he's a must-add.

I've come around to the position that Russell Bowie is significantly ahead of McGee

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09-20-2013, 01:34 AM
  #558
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Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post

Maybe some investigation is needed instead of endless cheer leading for certain players?
Just as long as the so called investigation is equal/fair to all Soviet/European players; i.e. it also includes comparisons to the players that you DON'T have a problem with + the assists that they scored (e.g. Maltsev and Petrov were not just goal-scorers). And maybe it's just me, but a little eye test would not hurt credibility either. Now, if it were to turn out that Petrov and/or Maltsev were feasting on weak teams clearly more so than, say, Larionov (I don't believe that for a second BTW), then there would be something there.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
I don't know yet where to put Petrov or Masltev on my list or even if they make it but their scoring against weaker competition certainly doesn't, and shouldn't help their case.
You know that you could just say "I'm an NHL guy, I don't care about non-NHL Europeans nor their achievements outside the NHL, I'm not going to have them on my list", and that would be okay - maybe a little shortsighted from my view, but still okay. But no, you have to constantly moan when some people might even CONSIDER having them on their lists. And it's not even like somebody will have a Maltsev and/or a Petrov in the top 10 or anything like that.

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09-20-2013, 02:00 AM
  #559
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VMBM View Post
You know that you could just say "I'm an NHL guy, I don't care about non-NHL Europeans nor their achievements outside the NHL, I'm not going to have them on my list", and that would be okay - maybe a little shortsighted from my view, but still okay. But no, you have to constantly moan when some people might even CONSIDER having them on their lists. And it's not even like somebody will have a Maltsev and/or a Petrov in the top 10 or anything like that.
With all due respect that's very off-base. I can say for a fact that Hardyvan bends over backwards to give Euro players the benefit of the doubt.....to the point where I think he does a disservice to past eras. But for anyone to claim Hardy is biased AGAINST Euro players? Just no.

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09-20-2013, 02:46 AM
  #560
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ROUND 1 VOTING IS NOW OPEN
  • To participate, you must submit a list of 80 centers ranked in order
  • Participants MUST submit a list in Round 1 to be eligible for Round 2
  • All eras MUST be considered, and consideration should be given to both NHL and non-NHL players
  • To make it easier to aggregate the submitted lists, please list players using their most commonly used name; e.g. Cyclone Taylor, not Frederick Wellington Taylor; Hooley Smith, not Reginald Smith
  • Lists may be submitted via email to hohtopplayers at yahoo.com or via PM to tarheelhockey. Excel format is preferred, but a top to bottom list of 80 is good too
  • Lists are DUE by October 10. Please PM tarheel or me if you'd like to participate but the deadline is an issue.

Eligibility and Ranking Criteria
  • Any person who spent the majority of his career playing as a center or who has the majority of his accomplishments as a center is eligible
  • It is highly recommended that you use these guidelines to determine whether a player qualifies as a "center" for the purposes of this project (link)
  • A player who qualifies as a center should be ranked based on his overall accomplishments as a forward or hockey player.
  • Players should be judged only on their accomplishments as hockey players
  • Players currently active are eligible, but should be ranked based only on what they have already done


Last edited by TheDevilMadeMe: 09-20-2013 at 08:42 AM.
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Old
09-20-2013, 02:55 AM
  #561
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SaintPatrick33 View Post
But for anyone to claim Hardy is biased AGAINST Euro players? Just no.
Well, I said NON-NHL Euro players (i.e. meaning Euro players who NEVER played in the NHL). In that sense, I think he IS an 'NHL guy' and is being very SELECTIVE, as far as European players go.
Consider this: if I'm not mistaken, in some other thread, he called Makarov the best player in the world during the 1980s behind Wayne Gretzky. Now, surely that opinion can't be based just on 30+ year old Makarov's NHL career (which was good/okay for his age/coming from a different culture) - he has to be looking also what Makarov did internationally/in the Soviet league? If and when so, is he being equally fair to Maltsev and/or Petrov in your opinion? I mean, you can't make that big a distinction between e.g. Maltsev and Makarov, based on their international/Soviet league careers.

C'mon, you can't claim that he has been very fair and 'openminded' to either Maltsev or Petrov here. And frankly, thus far, his arguments against them have been very weak IMO. At least I'm asking for something more than some reference to their international goal-scoring and suggesting those (+ WC best forward awards) mean basically nothing.


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09-20-2013, 03:01 AM
  #562
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VMBM View Post
Well, I said NON-NHL Euro players (i.e. meaning Euro players who NEVER played in the NHL). In that sense, I think he IS an 'NHL guy' and is being very SELECTIVE in his bias.
Consider this: if I'm not mistaken, in some other thread, he called Makarov the best player in the world during the 1980s behind Wayne Gretzky. Now, surely that opinion can't be based just on 30+ year old Makarov's NHL career (which was good/okay for his age/coming from a different culture) - he has to be looking also what Makarov did internationally/in the Soviet league? If and when so, is he being equally fair to Maltsev and/or Petrov in your opinion? I mean, you can't make that big a distinction between e.g. Maltsev and Makarov, for example, based on their international/Soviet league careers.

C'mon, you can't claim that he has been very fair and 'openminded' to either Maltsev or Petrov here. And frankly, thus far, his arguments against them have been very weak IMO. At least I'm asking for something more than some reference to their international goal-scoring and suggesting those (+ WC best forward awards) mean basically nothing.
You can't accuse someone of bias just because you don't like his opinion. I don't like a lot of Hardy's opinions but that doesn't mean I'm going to call bias unless I see a VERY good reason to do so. He thinks that Makarov was much better than Maltsev or Petrov? That's fine. It doesn't mean he's biased just because you don't see it the same. Why not, instead of calling "bias", just ask him why he thinks Makarov was better. Maybe he has a good reason for thinking so that doesn't involve "unfairness" and "closed-mindedness". Did you consider that?

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09-20-2013, 03:10 AM
  #563
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Originally Posted by SaintPatrick33 View Post
Maybe he has a good reason for thinking so that doesn't involve "unfairness" and "closed-mindedness". Did you consider that?
Well, hopefully he will show those reasons, and who knows, maybe I will concur & even eat a lot of humble pie after that...

But thus far, he hasn't shown much IMO.

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09-20-2013, 03:51 AM
  #564
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Scoring chances created by (and caused by) players in the 1972 Summit Series

These have been floating around for a little while now. A pair of recent articles where the author rewatched the Summit Series (for the 40th anniversary) and counted scoring chances created by a player and scoring chances against created by a player's mistake.

Since there is some concern with how Soviet players (in particular Maltsev and Petrov) performed against Canada, I'll post the relevant information here, though the articles themselves are well worth reading in their entirety.

From the first article, which focuses on the first 4 games of the Summit Series:

Quote:
*I didn’t have a stopwatch on the shifts, but it was common to see players out there going three, four, five time times up or down the ice on the same shift. Then, on occasion, they’d stay out for the next face-off. As a result, the game was played at a more leisurely pace.

* The games were nonetheless highly entertaining, and not just for their obvious Us Vs. Them drama. The defenders weren’t as adept or intense, but that allowed more space and room for virtuoso puckhandlers on both teams to work their magic. Stand-outs included Brad Park, Serge Savard, Gil Perreault and Phil Esposito for Team Canada, Valery Kharlamov and Alexander Malstev for the Soviets.
Quote:
The Soviets big line, in memory, was Vladimir Petrov, Boris Mikhailov and Kharlamov, but in the first four games those three players were rarely on the ice together. Kharlamov was more often playing with Malstev and Zimin, with Blinov or Vikulov with Petrov/Mikhailov.

* Alexander Yakushev was another big name on that Soviet team, but in the first four games the real force was the cagey, fast and gritty Mikhailov, who led the Soviet team with 31 contributions to scoring chances, 7.8 per game. Next best were Malstev, 6.0 per game, Kharlamov, 5.5 per game, Blinov, 5.0, then, finally, Yakushev, 4.3, tied with Petrov.
He then goes on to talk about how the big difference between the teams was that Canada had better defensemen.

The Second Article was written after he had analyzed all 8 games.

First, he mentioned how close the teams were: Goals were 32-31 in favor of the USSR, scoring chances were 21.6 to 19.9 per game in favor of Canada.

Again, he stated that the superior Canadian defensemen were the difference:

Quote:
The weakness of the Soviet team was its defencemen. If a defenceman is doing his job against tough competition, he will help create one scoring chance for every scoring chance against where he makes a mistake
....
The Soviets didn’t have one top d-man who came close to meeting this standard.
(A very young Valeri Vasiliev was the only Soviet dmen with even respectable numbers. Makes me think we did the right thing by not including Ragulin or Lutchenko on the dmen project).

The author picked Phil Esposito as the MVP of team Canada because of all the scoring chances he created (Bobby Clarke, Brad Park, Paul Henderson, and Serge Savard were the others in the running for a variety of reasons). He compared the number of scoring chances created by Phil Esposito to all other players:

Quote:
In all situations, Espo made some shot, pass, hit or screen that contributed to 67 scoring chances in the eight games. Off that production, he scored 13 official points, seven goals and six assists. He was way ahead of anyone else. Next best was Malstev, 51 contributions to scoring chances (five points), Boris Mikhailov, 48 (5 points), Henderson, 47 (10 points), Yvan Cournoyer, 44 (5 pts), Kharlamov, 39 (7 pts), Park, 38 (5 pts), Alexander Yakushev, 38 (11 pts), and Clarke, 37 (6 pts).
In a small sample size of 8 games, it is probably better to look at scoring chances created than actual points, and Maltsev does extremely well here, tops among Soviets in fact (Kharlamov's injury undoubtedly played a factor though). Petrov's performance seems pretty middle of the road, at least in this one tournament. Or perhaps Petrov was more of a finisher than a creator?


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09-20-2013, 05:23 AM
  #565
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Interesting. Firstly, it seems to support my opinion that Mikhailov indeed was the most consistent performer of all the Soviet players in the first 4 games. Maltsev's SOG/SAG numbers were the highest of any Soviet player (http://www.1972summitseries.com/shotsindividual.html), and this study seems to further confirm that he was an 'active' player during the Series. And some Canadian players also said nice things about Maltsev. Then again, along with Kharlamov, he was the most skilled player on the team.

Maybe I'd be a little more interested to know what 'scoring chance contribution' exactly means??? Is it possible that his method favours certain type of players?

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
In a small sample size of 8 games, it is probably better to look at scoring chances created than actual points, and Maltsev does extremely well here, tops among Soviets in fact (Kharlamov's injury undoubtedly played a factor though). Petrov's performance seems pretty middle of the road, at least in this one tournament. Or perhaps Petrov was more of a finisher than a creator?
IMO Petrov's performance was solid, not spectacular. He did contribute also defensively/in penalty killing, though (according to that table, his 'contributions to shorthanded chances' were higher than for any other Soviet in the first 4 games at least). He shared one game MVP (Team USSR) with Yakushev (game 5).

EDIT:
Petrov's final number was 35 contributions, not awfully far from Clarke (37) or Yakushev (38), for example (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...wb3hHYVE#gid=0)
BTW, I'm really surprised to see Shadrin doing so poorly here. At least I have a lot more positive image of his play in the series.

Quote:
The Soviets big line, in memory, was Vladimir Petrov, Boris Mikhailov and Kharlamov, but in the first four games those three players were rarely on the ice together. Kharlamov was more often playing with Malstev and Zimin, with Blinov or Vikulov with Petrov/Mikhailov.
Here the author is clearly confusing some players/things (it IS confusing, but still): in games 1 and 4, Kharlamov played with Maltsev and Vikulov, in game 2 he played with Maltsev and Starshinov and in game 3 with Maltsev and Mikhailov - he did not play with Zimin much at all, if any. Zimin was pretty much with Yakushev and Shadrin all the time. Blinov played with Mikhailov and Petrov in all of his 5 games in the series. I'm just a little worried about that, but maybe it's just that article and not the stats. And well, it's M-A-L-T-S-E-V, not Malstev


Last edited by VMBM: 09-20-2013 at 06:42 AM.
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09-20-2013, 05:51 AM
  #566
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Originally Posted by SaintPatrick33 View Post
I can say for a fact that Hardyvan bends over backwards to give Euro players the benefit of the doubt.....to the point where I think he does a disservice to past eras. But for anyone to claim Hardy is biased AGAINST Euro players? Just no.
Here's a fact: hardyvan drafted several Euros in the MLD 2013, including Valeri Kamesky, Sergei Nemchinov and Rollie Stoltz.

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09-20-2013, 07:42 AM
  #567
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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
I'm done eras, careers tended to be shorter. It's a valid point.
So Cyclone Taylor is worth how many seasons then?

I understand the point but 4 seasons is still really short and if a guy like Toews isn't making peoples lists it's hard to see Frank doing so.

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09-20-2013, 08:37 AM
  #568
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Will work on my list over the next day or 2. Great to see this getting started. Going to be interesting to see the final product.

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09-21-2013, 02:56 AM
  #569
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Scoring plays involving Petrov in the 1972 Summit Series (the ones I could think of):

game 1 - SHG by Petrov
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z34w_w6pHUg&t=43m2s

game 3 - SHG by Petrov
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aYnveEDunfQ&t=21m23s

game 4 - PPG by Mikhailov
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XY6xmEZ-qxE&t=17m13s

- goal by Blinov
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z_8lXXF5xj0&t=58m57s

game 5 - goal by Blinov
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pYrt292cNcU&t=26m42s

game 7 - PPG by Petrov
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rRkVIOdEMfQ&t=35m37s

Edit:
Scoring plays involving Maltsev in the 1972 SS (again, the ones I could think of):

game 1 - goal by Kharlamov
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z34w_w6pHUg&t=52m0s

- goal by Kharlamov
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z34w_w6pHUg&t=64m37s

game 4 - goal by Vikulov
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9PDxzSQMxU8&t=6m24s

game 7 - PPG by Yakushev
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KoWBV48CcyU&t=28m32s

game 8 - PPG by Yakushev
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9s2j5N5qVgE&t=16m30s

Maybe not totally fair to Maltsev; e.g. Kharlamov's goals in the 1st game were pretty much solo efforts. There are at least a couple of more scoring plays with Maltsev (from Moscow), but since Maltsev didn't get any credit for them...


Last edited by VMBM: 09-21-2013 at 03:28 AM.
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09-21-2013, 11:41 AM
  #570
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List sent. It was tough; a lot of good players didn't make the cut

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09-21-2013, 01:06 PM
  #571
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Still tweaking the last 15 players or so.

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09-21-2013, 01:14 PM
  #572
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Do we each have to select are own top 60? Is there a final list in the making?

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09-21-2013, 01:20 PM
  #573
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I simply don't know enough of pre-70s players to make any meaningful lists. The only semi-meaningful list I can compile is a list of top Soviet / Russian centers that I feel are worthy of the Top 70 list: Fedorov, Malkin, Petrov, Larionov, Starshinov, and Guryshev.

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09-21-2013, 01:47 PM
  #574
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VMBM View Post

Maybe I'd be a little more interested to know what 'scoring chance contribution' exactly means??? Is it possible that his method favours certain type of players?
Later on in the second article, he indirectly defines it:

Quote:
In all situations, Espo made some shot, pass, hit or screen that contributed to 67 scoring chances in the eight games
I like that he's including hits and screens that contribute to scoring chances. (Not that Maltsev or Kharlamov was doing much hitting really).

Anyway, hope that it helps puts to rest the silliness that Maltsev couldn't play against Canada, but the poster who keeps pushing that theory seems pretty immune to reason, so probably not.


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09-21-2013, 10:03 PM
  #575
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Originally Posted by livewell68 View Post
Do we each have to select are own top 60? Is there a final list in the making?
Everyone needs to make a list of the top 80 centers (in order) and then we proceed from there with votes on a week by week (not sure of the exact time frame actually might be a bit longer) basis.

Just curious.....nah I won't bother asking.

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