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Bergevin needs to reinfornce the defense a.s.a.p.

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Old
09-20-2013, 10:46 AM
  #51
PricePkPatch
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
The point of being a fan isn't to be content with "adequate", either.
I will be satisfied with "improving". As long as we progress year to year, don't blow up the farm over silly short-term moves, I'll be happy.

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09-20-2013, 10:47 AM
  #52
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Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
The problem isn't Bergevin.

Look at our draft picks for DMen over the last several years. Next look at Ottawa's draft history for DMen during the same period. There is your problem.

Our previous management believed that larger DMen are not a target for the draft (except Tinordi).

Gainey/Gauthier put us in this position. Bergevin is trying with the addition of Murray (who is vilified by a lot of people here even before the season starts)

The Gauthier era hurt this team a lot.
I thought we were extremely deep in term of D prospects? Wasn't it one of our top strenghts in Prospect Evaluation?

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09-20-2013, 10:48 AM
  #53
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Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
I don't live in a world where one skater (not named Crosby) plays enough minutes to make that kind of difference by himself. And I won't have a mental break down if I can't neatly sort that kind of uselessly subjective ranking/comparison in my brain, either.
Ok what would you have done last year and this year to put us in contention if you do not want adequate and think Bergevin sucks, what would you have done to push us better than we did last year?

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09-20-2013, 10:49 AM
  #54
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Originally Posted by WhiskeySeven View Post
The whole point of being a GM is to be proactive and find solutions even when they seem difficult.

Nabbing Diaz and Emelin, two immediate NHLers, in one offseason was a stroke of genius - but hardly anybody cared because Gauthier was vegan and referred to everyone as mister.

Bergevin's idea of proactive was to sign and extend Bouillon and trade for and extend Drewiskie - two borderline NHLers - and sign Murray in August. But he wears nice suits and at least he's not that awful LAST GM we had!! Give Bergevin some time!!!

This fanbase has Stockholm Syndrome. Most expensive tickets but continuously and incessantly served the sloppiest management and coaching. Just once it would be nice to have actual visionaries at the helm instead of racist jerkwads who'd rather sign a broken down smurf than look at other options.
Hey Wiskey, theres no need to sugar coat it. Be a straight shooter and tell us what you really think. Geez.....

And to be fair, I kind of agree with you although I think we are on different sides on the murray deal which I would not have liked in an ideal setting but our defensive corps is not ideal. But what do i know, I was in the " I hope tinordi stays in hamilton" camp which looks like it has sailed. And I liked Patteryn last year ( nothing flashy/ not a liability) but I'm less convinced that he is as ready as tinordi.

if tinordi gets komisa-wrecked this year our defense going forward is shot. having a slew of pmd's and nothing else looks suspiciously like last years playoffs.

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09-20-2013, 10:49 AM
  #55
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Originally Posted by Dirty Danglez View Post
. I don't think you are getting it. The cap space that Briere took doesn't hamper the canadiens abilities to make a trade for a top 4 big stay at home D. In order to get one of those guys, you have to give something (that has a salary) in return. Unless your in the business of trading valuable futures for a fix.
Except that the quote you originally were referring to was in response to somebody else. The argument was that there was nobody available via free agency... well, okay. If that's the case then **** free agency and make a trade.

As for Briere, yeah it DOES **** us up. We had the advantage of having lots of cap space and we could've used that to our advantage in a trade. We could've taken some salary off a team like the Flyers and not have had to give that much back. Instead we got Briere and this avenue was taken away. When you have cap space you use it for your advantage. Now the only way we can take on salary is to trade away equal salary back. We're kind of cap ****ed. So unless there's a team out there that really wants Brian Gionta, we're not going to be able to deal for their shutdown guy.

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09-20-2013, 10:50 AM
  #56
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Year 1: 'so glad we finaly have a GM with a long term vision that won't trade assets for immediate help'
year 2: 'i want help now!!'

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Old
09-20-2013, 10:52 AM
  #57
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Originally Posted by 2 Chainz View Post
Our defense isn't even that bad, give Tinordi some minutes now and he'll prove he's an NHL defenseman.

Gorges - Subban
Markov - Tinordi
Murray - Diaz

Also there is a chance Emelin might be back near the end of November, our D isn't as bad as people make it seem.
Our D is bad defensively. I'd say it borders on terrible.

Diaz, Markov and Subban have obvious offensive skills but that's not what we're talking about. NONE of those guys is particularly good at clearing the net and Subban isn't even played on the PK. We need help back there dude.

As for Tinordi being an NHL defenseman, that's all well and good. But he shouldn't be burdened with being our prime shut down guy in his rookie year.

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09-20-2013, 10:53 AM
  #58
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Originally Posted by Redux91 View Post
We've got like 20 freakin defenseman and you want to add more?
Quantity doesn't equal quality.

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09-20-2013, 10:54 AM
  #59
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Originally Posted by MasterDecoy View Post
Year 1: 'so glad we finaly have a GM with a long term vision that won't trade assets for immediate help'
year 2: 'i want help now!!'
It's great that he has long term vision. But we had real needs that were ignored and we went out and got Briere.

That doesn't make sense.

We needed a stopgap on the D and we needed a stopgap for a big forward. We got neither and then we got more of what we already had too much of. And yeah, I think that warrants a lot of criticism.

Long term things actually look good. But in the meantime we throw our goalie to the wolves, aren't giving our younger players the easy ice they should get and we aren't protecting our prospects or our goalies physically. You can't just ignore the 'now' when you've got young players you're developing for the future.

Get a stopgap like Morrow and get a big shutdown guy. Those are our needs. It's not rocket science.

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09-20-2013, 10:57 AM
  #60
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
It's great that he has long term vision. But we had real needs that were ignored and we went out and got Briere.

That doesn't make sense.
It makes a lot of sense. Signing Briere allows the team not to rush young players into that spot. It's not like he is blocking Gallagher or Galchenyuk from playing in the NHL this sesaon.

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Old
09-20-2013, 10:57 AM
  #61
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Someone brought up Giordano for Beauieu/McCarrson +1st on the trade board. Somehow, I see Calgary wanting more, but Gio is someone I'd love to target.

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09-20-2013, 10:57 AM
  #62
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
Except that the quote you originally were referring to was in response to somebody else. The argument was that there was nobody available via free agency... well, okay. If that's the case then **** free agency and make a trade.

As for Briere, yeah it DOES **** us up. We had the advantage of having lots of cap space and we could've used that to our advantage in a trade. We could've taken some salary off a team like the Flyers and not have had to give that much back. Instead we got Briere and this avenue was taken away. When you have cap space you use it for your advantage. Now the only way we can take on salary is to trade away equal salary back. We're kind of cap ****ed. So unless there's a team out there that really wants Brian Gionta, we're not going to be able to deal for their shutdown guy.
I hear you but this year trading was difficult as best. With the cap going down gm's preferred to keep their assets and wait for the cap to go up next year.

Trades are not the magical fix-it you seem to think. you need to give something for it. We can't always have what we want so we make due.

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09-20-2013, 10:58 AM
  #63
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Originally Posted by Zathronas View Post
I hear you but this year trading was difficult as best. With the cap going down gm's preferred to keep their assets and wait for the cap to go up next year.

Trades are not the magical fix-it you seem to think. you need to give something for it. We can't always have what we want so we make due.
Okay, I could buy that except that the Briere signing flies in the face of your argument.

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09-20-2013, 11:00 AM
  #64
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
It's great that he has long term vision. But we had real needs that were ignored and we went out and got Briere.

That doesn't make sense.
Briere was not the optimal move, but it makes sense in many measure. He's been had at a discount, when you look at the FA market this year. He's a PP goalscorer; something we need. He's a supernumary centre, and he's provec to be a clutch playoff performer.

His size is the only thing going against him, but he wouldn't have been bought out if he was 6'1".

Plus, he's french-canadian. I know it irks many people here whenever we sign french-canadian players, calling it a political move, but Bergevin will have much more flexibility in shuffling FC players if he already demonstrated his willingness to acquire good french players.

Plus, if Briere works out (that's an if), it'll go a long way toward softening the Montreal market to other french star. Proving that the "Montreal Nightmare" isn't as bad as they picture it.

There's a lot to gain from signing Briere, and a moderate to lose. It wasn't the optimal move, but it wasn't certainly a "bad" move the way many people claim it is.

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Old
09-20-2013, 11:00 AM
  #65
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Originally Posted by Monctonscout View Post
Isn't that the point of having Emelin and developing Tinordi?

Plus a guy like Pateryn is also close and in that mold as is Gorges.
Well if you want to rely on kids, then don't be surprised if the defense struggles.

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09-20-2013, 11:01 AM
  #66
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
Okay, I could buy that except that the Briere signing flies in the face of your argument.
How? they tried to sign Lecavalier but didn't want to offer him more than 2 years so they signed Briere instead.

What has that got to do with trading?

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09-20-2013, 11:02 AM
  #67
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Well if you want to rely on kids, then don't be surprised if the defense struggles.
Again, instant gratification!

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09-20-2013, 11:02 AM
  #68
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Originally Posted by 2 Chainz View Post
Our defense isn't even that bad, give Tinordi some minutes now and he'll prove he's an NHL defenseman.

Gorges - Subban
Markov - Tinordi
Murray - Diaz

Also there is a chance Emelin might be back near the end of November, our D isn't as bad as people make it seem.
Don't get your hopes up. If everybody is healthy Tinordi won't start the season in Montreal. He's still too raw and hasn't played enough professional hockey. A big body like him needs a lot of minutes to mature and season. You realize a guy like Subban who was more talented and more nhl ready still played way more junior and more AHL games than Tinordi.

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09-20-2013, 11:03 AM
  #69
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Originally Posted by Zathronas View Post
Ok what would you have done last year and this year to put us in contention if you do not want adequate and think Bergevin sucks, what would you have done to push us better than we did last year?
Who thinks Bergevin sucks? Bouillon and Desharnais wouldn't have had spots on my team, and I would have been willing to use assets to find better and longer term solutions to filling their minutes for starters, but otherwise I don't think this team needed to go too crazy last year or this year. Too often the closed thinkers on this board only consider the players who actually moved in the off season, and completely fail to understand that so many more players are always available for the right price. Given that the Habs are a "have" franchise, both in terms of financial backing and organizational assets, there's almost no limit to what could be done if seriously inclined to make a "major" deal.

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09-20-2013, 11:05 AM
  #70
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Originally Posted by Zathronas View Post
Fair enough, so tell me who should he have gotten and how much should he had paid for him?

Bergevin clearly wants to build from within and I think Pateryn and Tinordi will become great shutdown D's within a year or two. So he wouldn't sign anything more than 2 years.

Fan wants action but sometimes inaction is best. But with you guys he's damned if he did and damned if he don't.

Next year we have Markov, Diaz, Emelin, Murray and Bouillon UFA's. you think that's unintentional? at that point Pateryn and Tinordi will be in the lineup, Subban will be resigned probably Emelin too. That will leave 2 spots to fill, maybe Markov or if Beaulieu is ready he'll replace him and another preferably a right handed D.

Does that look like a plan to you?
If that's the case, then why did he sign Briere? I mean, Eller, Gally, Galla, we have kids that need more ice time. Instead of them, Briere, an old small declining player, will apparently play on what many people view as our #1 line. Why couldn't he have gone with kids there where our depth is actually good?

Meanwhile, on defense, where we really struggled, we kept the status quo + another 5-7th Dman.

But you can't ask fans ''who would you have gotten?''. If we knew the answer to that, we'd be working for a NHL team. Who knows who was or could have been interested in coming here? Who knows what trade could have happened?
It's not fair to ask regular guys, simple fans, that question. But there's no reason to believe it can't be done.

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Old
09-20-2013, 11:05 AM
  #71
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Originally Posted by MasterDecoy View Post
Year 1: 'so glad we finaly have a GM with a long term vision that won't trade assets for immediate help'
year 2: 'i want help now!!'
We are habs fans. Did you expect otherwise?

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09-20-2013, 11:05 AM
  #72
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Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
Who thinks Bergevin sucks? Bouillon and Desharnais wouldn't have had spots on my team, and I would have been willing to use assets to find better and longer term solutions to filling their minutes for starters, but otherwise I don't think this team needed to go too crazy last year or this year. Too often the closed thinkers on this board only consider the players who actually moved in the off season, and completely fail to understand that so many more players are always available for the right price. Given that the Habs are a "have" franchise, both in terms of financial backing and organizational assets, there's almost no limit to what could be done if seriously inclined to make a "major" deal.
Except that the "right price" is often so damn wrong.

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Old
09-20-2013, 11:05 AM
  #73
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Murray/Tinordi-Subban
Markov-Gorges
Tinordi/Murray-Diaz

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09-20-2013, 11:07 AM
  #74
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Originally Posted by hogtownhabsfan View Post
Murray/Tinordi-Subban
Markov-Gorges
Tinordi/Murray-Diaz
Murray on the 1st pairing is a receipe for disaster. All Penguin fans will tell you so. Murray is reliable if you don't overexpose him.

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09-20-2013, 11:08 AM
  #75
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Except that the "right price" is often so damn wrong.
Not when the ends justify the means. And regardless of what an asset's value is "in a vacuum", it's actually 0 to you if there's no foreseeable opportunity for him to play ahead of everyone else you already have in position.

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