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Bergevin needs to reinfornce the defense a.s.a.p.

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Old
09-20-2013, 10:11 AM
  #76
Zathronas
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Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
Who thinks Bergevin sucks? Bouillon and Desharnais wouldn't have had spots on my team, and I would have been willing to use assets to find better and longer term solutions to filling their minutes for starters, but otherwise I don't think this team needed to go too crazy last year or this year. Too often the closed thinkers on this board only consider the players who actually moved in the off season, and completely fail to understand that so many more players are always available for the right price. Given that the Habs are a "have" franchise, both in terms of financial backing and organizational assets, there's almost no limit to what could be done if seriously inclined to make a "major" deal.
Vague, vague, vague! you're like the palm reader who give vague answers to make sure some are right!

As for no limits, that was true in the pre-cap era and is no longer true. Bergevin already said he prefers to build thru the draft and complement the drafting with free agents and that's what he's doing. You only say you would trade Bouillon and Desharnais for the great and powerful "ASSET" and to find "BETTER" player. then continue by saying there is always better options out there without naming anything.

Yep! that's how a gm thinks! With all your concrete option you sure changed my mind about Bergevin, your options are much better!

DOWN WITH BERGEVIN!!!

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Old
09-20-2013, 10:15 AM
  #77
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Originally Posted by Zathronas View Post
How? they tried to sign Lecavalier but didn't want to offer him more than 2 years so they signed Briere instead.

What has that got to do with trading?
Opportunity Cost.

Google it.

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09-20-2013, 10:18 AM
  #78
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What's the problem? Were we planning on keeping Tinordi, Beaulieu, pateryn and others in minors all year? Day to day, that's it. When a real injury happens, that's why we have young guys who are near NHL ready. I'd argue Tinordi is ready.

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09-20-2013, 10:20 AM
  #79
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Originally Posted by MXD View Post
I m not sure how Whitney addresses the need for a Top-4 D-men.
Whitney can't skate anymore. Sad to say, but his ankles are shot.

If the Habs acquired Whitney on top of acquiring Murray, you'd have to wonder why their pro scouting department doesn't keep current.

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09-20-2013, 10:22 AM
  #80
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Originally Posted by Zathronas View Post
Now you're thinking like a Leafs GM which wants immediate results no matter what. Instant gratification does not work in the NHL. You have to build a contender.

I agree with you that Gauthier was much maligned as he was good finding prospect.

Emelin was not an instant nhl'er he was drafted in 2004 and started in MTL 2 years ago.

Basically you want a fast food team.
Bouillon and Drewiskie make us a fast food team. I want a team build responsibly and with the future in mind. I don't want 36 year old Briere or 28 year old Bouillon. Those are stopgaps.

And my point was that Gauthier INJECTED assets into the system where there weren't any. Diaz and Emelin immediately factored into our top6, top4 by the end of the season actually. That's proper management, not this haphazard sillyness that Bergevin's doing.

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Originally Posted by Monctonscout View Post
I'm not one of those that touted Gauthier as a failure as GM. He was rough around the edges and rubbed some the wrong way so they disliked him, bring Emelin and Diaz over as well as the Bourque trade were good moves. Kaberle one didn't work out so well but he cost next to nothing.

That being said, I don't see any options which were a huge upgrade on Murray that were available this summer. Unless Phillie was willing to move one of Coburn Meszaros or Grossman cheap, the market on defense was pretty bare. You can argue Hainsey or Whitney, but Murray though he is not as good as them, is a better fit for the Habs needs. Both of those guys are more skilled and mobile but can't come close to Murray in toughness and mean streak, two things the chorus on here was clamoring for.
Murray's signing doesn't really affect us in a bad way but when you see that Hainsey went for 2m and Komisarek for 700k (to a bottom-feeding team no less) it's kind of frustrating to see Bouillon and the eternally useless Drewiskie locked in and extended.

I was happy with his signing because it finally meant one of our bottom4 players could actually clear the crease for once. But it still indicated patchwork management and I hate Bergevin for it.

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I guess you believe that the whole point of being a fan is to criticize no matter what, never be satisfied with anything regardless of the circumstances?
I'm getting older and I don't see this team improving in anyway. Instead of an organizational do-over, which we thought would happen, we now see that Gauthier was just the scapegoat and the status-quo was to be maintained. Mediocre French players and coaches, never make the big move, keep trudging along and sucking the fans dry, rinse and repeat.

Name one thing Bergevin did differently from Gainey?

After last year's disaster of a PK you'd figure that one of those idiot assistant coaches would've seen his head rolling down Parc Avenue, no?

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Man, you need help
You need to ease off the xanax and smell the roses.

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Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
The problem isn't Bergevin.

Look at our draft picks for DMen over the last several years. Next look at Ottawa's draft history for DMen during the same period. There is your problem.

Our previous management believed that larger DMen are not a target for the draft (except Tinordi).

Gainey/Gauthier put us in this position. Bergevin is trying with the addition of Murray (who is vilified by a lot of people here even before the season starts)

The Gauthier era hurt this team a lot.
You're the guy who wanted to dump Subban for being "selfish" during his hold-out.

You don't have much credibility left, and if you did you'd be dismissed again because Gauthier was only around for two drafts and we got Beaulieu and Tinordi out of them.

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Except that the "right price" is often so damn wrong.
Only on HFBoards. In reality there are interesting trades done all the time. Look at Brent Burns, look at Shattenkirk and so on.

If our drafting is so good, then we should have some assets, no?

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09-20-2013, 10:22 AM
  #81
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What I really don't get is if the Habs are looking for a top-4 right-handed defenseman, why they didn't just pick up Tom Gilbert. He's miles better than Murray, a better fit, AND he's on a freaking PTO so he wouldn't necessarily have been expensive.

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09-20-2013, 10:23 AM
  #82
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Originally Posted by LyricalLyricist View Post
What's the problem? Were we planning on keeping Tinordi, Beaulieu, pateryn and others in minors all year? Day to day, that's it. When a real injury happens, that's why we have young guys who are near NHL ready. I'd argue Tinordi is ready.
I think he's ready too.

But that doesnt' mean we don't need a big shutdown blueliner to go with him. Tinordi's a rookie. Just because he's an NHL ready rookie doesn't change anything. Our D is weak defensively. We need a guy who can log big minutes in a defensive role who can actually clear the crease and kill penalties. We don't have this right now so the burden will be put on Tinordi. Maybe Murray can help out but he seems awfully slow.

A legit number three shutdown guy was needed in the worst way and I don't think we addressed this problem. Tinordi and Murray might work out but we're rolling the dice.

My fingers are crossed but I don't like the look of our D at all from a defensive standpoint. Offensively? That's a different story.

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Old
09-20-2013, 10:24 AM
  #83
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
If that's the case, then why did he sign Briere? I mean, Eller, Gally, Galla, we have kids that need more ice time. Instead of them, Briere, an old small declining player, will apparently play on what many people view as our #1 line. Why couldn't he have gone with kids there where our depth is actually good?

Meanwhile, on defense, where we really struggled, we kept the status quo + another 5-7th Dman.

But you can't ask fans ''who would you have gotten?''. If we knew the answer to that, we'd be working for a NHL team. Who knows who was or could have been interested in coming here? Who knows what trade could have happened?
It's not fair to ask regular guys, simple fans, that question. But there's no reason to believe it can't be done.
But that's just it, we criticize signings and deals then criticize inaction. Nobody criticize results as it's too early and frankly as of now the result that we see aren't too bad.

There is nothing objective about the critics right now because IT'S TOO EARLY to tell. So as we can't see the results yet I have to ask what could have been done better, knowing someone will criticize their choice for the same reason they do since we cannot see the result of their option either.

THE ONLY changes from Bergevin we can safely talk about as we have started to see results are Bouillon and Galchenyuk. and even then result are sketchy at best.

In 3 years time I might agree with you that he's done a bad job (I don't think so but it's possible) But right now all I can say is put your money where your mouth is!

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09-20-2013, 10:25 AM
  #84
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Originally Posted by donghabs98 View Post
We are habs fans. Did you expect otherwise?
Nope

is tell all those that complain that this obvious problem concerning the defense is EASILY solved by trading or singning whoever because obviously, every player in the league is dying to sign here with th greatest fannase and no income tax, I'd tell those people to shove a fistful of old yuan in their mouth (or cuticle in this case), and show me trades that would be possible or signings that gmmb could have done.

I'm my stupid phone ao I'm not proofreading anythig

Go!

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Old
09-20-2013, 10:25 AM
  #85
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
Diaz, Markov and Subban have obvious offensive skills but that's not what we're talking about. NONE of those guys is particularly good at clearing the net and Subban isn't even played on the PK. We need help back there dude.
PK's an exceptional defensive defenseman. He's also an excellent penalty-killer, which makes it quite strange that Therrien won't use him when he was fantastic at it in 11-12.

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09-20-2013, 10:25 AM
  #86
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You don't understand - nobody cares if there was an available option or not. It was the job of MB to find a magic solution and if he couldn't then obviously it's because he sucks and must be replaced. That's how all GM in the last decades have been evaluated around here. Not going to change today. Welcome to entitlement land.
There are always ways. To sit there and said this D core is the best Bergie could have done is bogus.

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09-20-2013, 10:27 AM
  #87
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PK's an exceptional defensive defenseman. He's also an excellent penalty-killer, which makes it quite strange that Therrien won't use him when he was fantastic at it in 11-12.
Well that's the problem. He isn't used on the PK (which doesn't make sense at all) and is basically just being used as an offensive guy.

He's a great all around blueliner (one of the best in the league) but he's not a Chara or a Webber type guy who clears the front of the net. And that's what we really need right now.

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09-20-2013, 10:27 AM
  #88
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
Opportunity Cost.

Google it.
yeah cause I'm vinny was dying to have his buyout be taxed to ****. Yep.

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09-20-2013, 10:27 AM
  #89
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Originally Posted by Bourne Endeavor View Post
Someone brought up Giordano for Beauieu/McCarrson +1st on the trade board. Somehow, I see Calgary wanting more, but Gio is someone I'd love to target.
That's a steep price to pay but man would I love to have a guy like Giodano here. I can't remember if we've ever had defenseman like him. He's exactly what this team is missing, physical, fast, can play hockey and log minutes. #dream

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09-20-2013, 10:31 AM
  #90
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
Well that's the problem. He isn't used on the PK (which doesn't make sense at all) and is basically just being used as an offensive guy.
PK's flatly underused by Therrien for reasons that escape me. Frankly, the Habs were very good in 12-13, but they could get even better simply by applying more Subban. Maybe the Norris will convince him.

Just having PK eat three or four minutes from the third pairing makes the defense instantly better, and since PK can do it all it doesn't even particularly matter which minutes they are.

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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
He's a great all around blueliner (one of the best in the league) but he's not a Chara or a Webber type guy who clears the front of the net. And that's what we really need right now.
It's not a matter of "clearing the front of the net" (IMHO an overrated attribute) as it is preventing scoring chances against (no scoring chances, no goals). Something all three are great at.

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09-20-2013, 10:32 AM
  #91
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yeah cause I'm vinny was dying to have his buyout be taxed to ****. Yep.
Lalfeurs was against the Vinny signing actually - his point was that there is opportunity cost loss when you sign Briere over other options.

Even Gagne is better than Briere.

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09-20-2013, 10:33 AM
  #92
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That's a steep price to pay but man would I love to have a guy like Giodano here. I can't remember if we've ever had defenseman like him. He's exactly what this team is missing, physical, fast, can play hockey and log minutes. #dream
Isn't he their captain? :fugitaboutut:

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09-20-2013, 10:34 AM
  #93
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But that's just it, we criticize signings and deals then criticize inaction. Nobody criticize results as it's too early and frankly as of now the result that we see aren't too bad.
Except that we made moves that we didn't really need to make when we had glaring weaknesses. And we did this before the FreeAgency deadline even happened.

That's why he's taking heat here. The priorities are out of whack.
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Originally Posted by Zathronas View Post
There is nothing objective about the critics right now because IT'S TOO EARLY to tell. So as we can't see the results yet I have to ask what could have been done better, knowing someone will criticize their choice for the same reason they do since we cannot see the result of their option either.
BS.

It's not too early to know if we could've done better here. We KNOW we could've done better than we did because we addressed areas that didn't need addressing and did so right away. Many (including me) feel that the Briere move actually hurt us more than it helped. And then we go get Murray who was almost last in the game of musical FA chairs...
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Originally Posted by Zathronas View Post
THE ONLY changes from Bergevin we can safely talk about as we have started to see results are Bouillon and Galchenyuk. and even then result are sketchy at best.

In 3 years time I might agree with you that he's done a bad job (I don't think so but it's possible) But right now all I can say is put your money where your mouth is!
Unlike Whiskey I'm not going to say that MB should be thrown out. But I can understand his frustration.

It's great that we're building long term. That's definitely something to be happy about. But Whiskey is right that the Briere move is something that we've seen for years now. It's never gotten us anywhere but here we go again. And what's worse is that we ignore our (very obvious and pressing) needs. THAT's why people are upset.

I still think we're a playoff team. I still think we'll score a bunch of goals. But our D sucks and our forwards are too small. Nobody stands in front of the net except Gallagher and nobody clears our net. It's like we've forgotten that this part of the game is actually important. We're a good team but we could be so much better right now.

And that's frustrating.

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09-20-2013, 10:35 AM
  #94
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I don't think we need a shutdown defenceman at all, we need a two-way player to replace Markov and take some weight off his and Gorges' shoulders. Put Markov in the minutes and situations he'll succeed. Tinordi can't play in the top-4 now or anytime within the next year. His offensive/passing game is nowhere close to where it needs to be and this would really diminish our strengths as a team.

Luca Sbisa might be a trade option, still improving and finding his game but capable of playing big minutes at both ends of the ice. He'll still be an RFA in 2015-2016 IIRC. In terms of prospects, Simon Despres would be perfect to fill this role. He's got all the makings of a solid, two-way, top-4 defenceman. It would be very difficult to get him out of Pittsburgh.

Sbisa-Subban
Markov-Gorges
Murray-Diaz
(Bouillon, Drewiske)

As well, anyone trying to pan off this BS about Gagne being better than Briere needs to give it a rest. Despite the size difference, Briere is twice the player Gagne is at this point in their careers.

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Old
09-20-2013, 10:36 AM
  #95
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Originally Posted by WhiskeySeven View Post
Lalfeurs was against the Vinny signing actually - his point was that there is opportunity cost loss when you sign Briere over other options.

Even Gagne is better than Briere.
Simon? You gitta be kidding brosef, guy's more broken than... Something, you figure it out

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Old
09-20-2013, 10:38 AM
  #96
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yeah cause I'm vinny was dying to have his buyout be taxed to ****. Yep.
I don't know what you're talking about. And it seems you don't know what you're talking about either.

Google opportunity cost and maybe you'll get what I'm saying because that post shows me that you don't.
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Originally Posted by MathMan View Post
PK's flatly underused by Therrien for reasons that escape me. Frankly, the Habs were very good in 12-13, but they could get even better simply by applying more Subban. Maybe the Norris will convince him.

Just having PK eat three or four minutes from the third pairing makes the defense instantly better, and since PK can do it all it doesn't even particularly matter which minutes they are.
You will get zero arguments from me here. I didn't understand it then and I don't understand it now. He should be playing 27 minutes a game at least.

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Originally Posted by MathMan View Post
It's not a matter of "clearing the front of the net" (IMHO an overrated attribute) as it is preventing scoring chances against (no scoring chances, no goals). Something all three are great at.
Chara and Weber are awesome at clearing the net. Yeah, I'd say it's pretty important for your goalie to be able to see the shot.

As for limiting scoring chances... sure, I don't disagree. But if you want to win you fight the battles in front of the net. We don't do this and it hurts us.

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09-20-2013, 10:40 AM
  #97
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Originally Posted by WhiskeySeven View Post
Bouillon and Drewiskie make us a fast food team. I want a team build responsibly and with the future in mind. I don't want 36 year old Briere or 28 year old Bouillon. Those are stopgaps.
Of course they are! That's what you do while building a contender you stopgap position until the youngin's in your system are ready!

Quote:
And my point was that Gauthier INJECTED assets into the system where there weren't any. Diaz and Emelin immediately factored into our top6, top4 by the end of the season actually. That's proper management, not this haphazard sillyness that Bergevin's doing.
As I said earlier he INJECTED Emelin after he was in the system for 7 YEARS. You know! like Bergevin is doing with Pateryn, Tinordi and Beaulieu! what a coincidence!

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Murray's signing doesn't really affect us in a bad way but when you see that Hainsey went for 2m and Komisarek for 700k (to a bottom-feeding team no less) it's kind of frustrating to see Bouillon and the eternally useless Drewiskie locked in and extended.
Aren't those stopgaps too?

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I was happy with his signing because it finally meant one of our bottom4 players could actually clear the crease for once. But it still indicated patchwork management and I hate Bergevin for it.
Sooo! stopgaps Bouillon and Drewiske NO! but stopgaps Hainsey and Komisarek YES!

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I'm getting older and I don't see this team improving in anyway. Instead of an organizational do-over, which we thought would happen, we now see that Gauthier was just the scapegoat and the status-quo was to be maintained. Mediocre French players and coaches, never make the big move, keep trudging along and sucking the fans dry, rinse and repeat.
OK french player bbbaaaaddd! But I do agree with you that we do not give Gauthier his due. He's a great main scout but a bad GM. Good at finding talent but bad at developing them.

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Name one thing Bergevin did differently from Gainey?
Too early to tell yet.

Quote:
After last year's disaster of a PK you'd figure that one of those idiot assistant coaches would've seen his head rolling down Parc Avenue, no?
So a 48 games season with a 23rd penalty kill is enough to start making change in the management... again.

You want instant gratification you don't want a contender, you want the Rangers.

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Old
09-20-2013, 10:46 AM
  #98
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
You will get zero arguments from me here. I didn't understand it then and I don't understand it now. He should be playing 27 minutes a game at least.
Randy Cunneyworth used Subban better than Therrien. Between this and the terrible PK tactics, I wonder about Daigneault.

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Chara and Weber are awesome at clearing the net. Yeah, I'd say it's pretty important for your goalie to be able to see the shot.
More important that the other guys don't get to shoot at all. "Clearing the net" is highly visible, but not nearly as impactful. Especially since while you're doing it you risk screening your goalie yourself.

Chara and Weber's real value isn't in "clearing the net". They're awesome at regaining and maintaining possession of the puck.

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09-20-2013, 10:46 AM
  #99
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Originally Posted by MasterDecoy View Post
Simon? You gitta be kidding brosef, guy's more broken than... Something, you figure it out
More broken than the US healthcare system

Hopefully it puts into perspective how terrible a fit Briere is on our team, then. An already small, perimeter team signs a 36 year old smurf castoff coming off multiple injuries to a two year NMC contract.

Can't be giving any credit to Bergevin's or his brain-trust of lackeys.

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09-20-2013, 10:47 AM
  #100
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Yes he has by Emelin, and it was pretty evident that he was the glue to this d-core before he went down with his injury, just like hammer was the glue when he was on the team. When emelin gets back on the ice, our d corps will be top ten in the league.
Hammer was a 2nd D. Emelin isn't there and might never be. Gorges will never be. This is what I meant.

But yeah, Emelin is the closer we have to Hammer.

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